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Post by owlorbs on Oct 4, 2018 8:06:50 GMT -6
I should add that besides Delving Deeper, S&W Core and White Box are the ones I always recommend to people looking to check out a free clone.
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Post by Falconer on Oct 4, 2018 13:12:22 GMT -6
Delving Deeper V1 Boxed Set is my favorite 0e clone.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 11:14:50 GMT -6
As to the original question: S&W White box will give you the meat and potatoes of OD&D. S&W Core will add a side of green beans with bacon and a nice tossed salad. So, it depends on what you want, but either of those are very serviceable clones of OD&D. But that hasn't been the role of retroclones at my table. I play AD&D, BX, or OD&D. I don't play OSRIC, LL, or S&W/DD. What the retroclones have provided for me as a DM, are adventures and other supplements, which are pretty much straight-up compatible with the "parent" game. (The lone exception to this, and there always is one, is AS&SH. I do run AS&SH, set in Hyperborea, and have used the ruleset for Lankhmar and Greyhawk adventures as well.) Which brings me to: With the release of PDFs, I think the era of straight clones is over. As I said, I've never "played" OSRIC, but there are plenty of AD&D 1e compatible adventures written for OSRIC (as a platform) out there for me to choose from. So for me, the era of the straight clone never really started, but on the other hand, I hope it never ends, as it means more material for me to mine for ideas.
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LouGoncey
Level 4 Theurgist
"Lather. Rinse. Repeat. That's my philosophy."
Posts: 108
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Post by LouGoncey on Oct 13, 2018 21:30:57 GMT -6
I am now back to just using the one volume Greyharp version of OD&D. If I need the thief I just use the original thief rules (it is in the appendix) but use Dekving Deepers 3+ rule...
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Oct 13, 2018 22:26:59 GMT -6
I am now back to just using the one volume Greyharp version of OD&D. If I need the thief I just use the original thief rules (it is in the appendix) but use Dekving Deepers 3+ rule... Where do I find the one volume Greyharp OD&D? Thank you
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Merias
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 104
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Post by Merias on Oct 14, 2018 7:52:14 GMT -6
I have the PDF and doc versions of the 6x9 Greyharp single volume edition, if anyone wants them send me a PM.
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Post by asaki on Oct 14, 2018 8:01:41 GMT -6
I was looking at a lot of retro clones back when I didn't have any money, but since I've been working, I've been slowly collecting a lot of the official books (or PDFs, in 0E's case). I still peek at the occasional clone to see if there are rule clarifications and things like that, though. Also, a lot of them have some pretty nice artwork. I'm a sucker for anything by Erol Otus (hence, my avatar). And like others have said, the clones are great at being an "SRD" style base to build OSR-compatible adventure modules for. Technically, I suppose my favorite clone is B/X. I like the organization, the artwork, that Souvenir font, the setting, etc. It reminds me a lot of the 80s, and Saturday morning cartoons (especially that cartoon). The hand-holding bits aren't as lengthy as they are in BECMI, and it doesn't stray from the source as much as those books and/or the Rules Cyclopedia. I've been going through all of the supplements and magazines lately and trying to compile my own "Companion" booklet, but it's turning out to be a lot more work than I thought it would be. Also, since I'm just copy'n'pasting from the official books, I'm sure it wouldn't be legal to share it if I ever finish it. I am now back to just using the one volume Greyharp version of OD&D. I have that, it's pretty neat. It also has some of the bits that were censored out later, like Hobbits and the Balrog. I was taking a peak at it last night, because I've been trying to compile some monster info, and where did they get all of the monster "save as" numbers from??? I looked all over the LBBs, the Supplements, and Holmes, and didn't see anything. I notice most monsters just save as equivalent level Fighters, but some do not. I know Monster & Treasure Assortment has saves listed, but not every monster is in there.
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 14, 2018 9:51:40 GMT -6
I was taking a peak at it last night, because I've been trying to compile some monster info, and where did they get all of the monster "save as" numbers from??? I looked all over the LBBs, the Supplements, and Holmes, and didn't see anything. I notice most monsters just save as equivalent level Fighters, but some do not. I know Monster & Treasure Assortment has saves listed, but not every monster is in there. It says somewhere that monsters save by their equivalent character type. That means most are going to save like FM. But some are more like MUs and CLs, so that is probably what Grey Harp is doing to derive his saves.
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Post by asaki on Nov 11, 2018 9:34:48 GMT -6
It says somewhere that monsters save by their equivalent character type. I just found it, it was in the FAQ from Strategic Review =) "Saving throws for monsters are the same as for the appropriate type and level of man, i.e. a balrog would gain the saving throw of either a 10th level fighter or a 12th level magic-user (the latter based upon the balrog’s magic resistance), whichever score is the more favorable for the balrog. A troll would be equal to a 7th level fighter as it has 6 dice +3, virtually seven dice." I also noticed the other day that the reference sheet from Keep on the Borderlands has OD&D saving throws listed instead of Basic.
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Post by delta on Nov 11, 2018 14:14:59 GMT -6
I also noticed the other day that the reference sheet from Keep on the Borderlands has OD&D saving throws listed instead of Basic. Good spot! I've pointed out in the past that statistically, hit points in B2 more accurately match the OD&D d6 hit dice scheme.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Nov 11, 2018 14:40:37 GMT -6
I also noticed the other day that the reference sheet from Keep on the Borderlands has OD&D saving throws listed instead of Basic. Good spot! I've pointed out in the past that statistically, hit points in B2 more accurately match the OD&D d6 hit dice scheme. Nice blog post. I bought a PDF version of B2 some time ago. This "official" version looks like it's based on Moldvay to my eyes. I really love the B2 reference sheets (and B2 in general) and I use them all the time for quick lookups. But, now I'm curious about the "Holmes" version of B2. Have you guys compared the two reference sheets? Which ones do you have? Any chance you could share the differences? Having a more OD&D-centric version of the B2 reference sheets would be helpful for my games. Oh, and FTR, I really like the OD&D reference sheets as well. I was pleasantly surprised that they were included with the official OD&D PDFs that I bought. They are sooooo handy at the table along with the GH ref sheets and I use them quite extensively.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 11, 2018 17:45:08 GMT -6
B2 was written specifically to replace B1 in the Holmes Basic set (see: Gygax on Holmes). Because of this the reference sheet included in the original version of B2 is the same one found in the back of the Holmes Basic rulebook, and the OD&D saving throw values appear on it because they appear in Holmes. The Saving Throw Table is the same table that appears in the Holmes rulebook, page 13. I have noted one small difference in the B2 reference sheets versus the one in the Holmes rulebook. The Monster Attack table makes changes to the first two entries for Monster's Hit Dice. This was something that was changed a few times via printings of Holmes. Since I have most of these out right now why don't I compare them? Men & Magic Dice Up to 1 1+1 2-3 Holmes Manuscript; Holmes 2nd print (Jan 78); Holmes 2nd edition (Nov 78); Holmes 3rd edition (Dec 79) with "Using Dice or Chits" on page 46 up to 1+1 1+1 to 2 2 to 3 Holmes 3rd edition (Dec 79) with "Using the Dice" on page 46 [this is the latest printing of Holmes I've identified] up to 1+1 1+2 to 2 2+ to 3 B2, 1st printing up to 1 1+1 to 2 2+ to 3 I'm not sure if B2 or the last Holmes printing was done first. The B2 version, however, does seem closer to OD&D so it may have been made as a final attempt to fix the table.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Nov 11, 2018 18:55:57 GMT -6
Nice work, Zen. To close the circle, here is the monster's HD progression for my 1981 printing of B2 (click to enlarge):
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Post by asaki on Nov 12, 2018 5:35:13 GMT -6
Have you guys compared the two reference sheets? Which ones do you have? According to the Acaeum, mine is a 4th printing, and my Basic is a 9th printing (Moldvay). I have another copy of Basic that might be 11th printing. B2 was written specifically to replace B1 in the Holmes Basic set (see: Gygax on Holmes). Because of this the reference sheet included in the original version of B2 is the same one found in the back of the Holmes Basic rulebook, and the OD&D saving throw values appear on it because they appear in Holmes. The Saving Throw Table is the same table that appears in the Holmes rulebook, page 13. I just have an old PDF of Holmes, but in it, the saving throws do not exactly match OD&D. In it, Thieves use the same saving throws as Fighters, instead of Magic-Users, and Dwarves/Halflings save vs. Dragon Breath at 14 instead of 13 (typo?). You know what? My B2 saving throw matrix does match up with Moldvay Basic...and I could've sworn that I had looked before and it did not...I'll have to double check when I get back from work.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2018 14:04:38 GMT -6
I just have an old PDF of Holmes, but in it, the saving throws do not exactly match OD&D. In it, Thieves use the same saving throws as Fighters, instead of Magic-Users, and Dwarves/Halflings save vs. Dragon Breath at 14 instead of 13 (typo?). Yes, it's true that while the saving throws were taken directly from OD&D, there are a few small changes. We see this throughout Holmes Basic. Regarding thieves, this appears in the manuscript as well, and it's easy to imagine that Holmes missed the comment in Greyhawk regarding their saving throws, since it is buried under the Alternative Combat System notes. The Dragon Breath is probably just a typo since all of the others saves are given a +2. Of note, the Holmes Manuscript does not have the line for Normal Men, so that was added by Gygax. The notations for Kobold/Goblin and Hobgoblin were also added post-Holmes.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2018 14:08:58 GMT -6
Nice work, Zen. To close the circle, here is the monster's HD progression for my 1981 printing of B2 (click to enlarge): View AttachmentThanks! That's the same table that appears in Moldvay Basic, with just the font changed to match that of B2. It has all of the quirks of the OD&D version smoothed out. Since the first three lines match that of the 1st printing of B2, that also supports that the version in the 1st printing of B2 was done after that of the last printing of Holmes.
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Post by asaki on Nov 12, 2018 20:18:07 GMT -6
You know what? My B2 saving throw matrix does match up with Moldvay Basic...and I could've sworn that I had looked before and it did not...I'll have to double check when I get back from work. I checked and I see what happened...I had been looking at the charts from Expert before, which are not the same as OD&D, and just assumed that B and X had the same charts.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 3, 2019 19:00:19 GMT -6
S&W White Box. OD&D construction kit.
When I just want to play instead of tinker and fiddle with creating all sorts of house rules to fit whatever mood I am in, it's S&W Complete.
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Post by Greyharp on Sept 4, 2019 6:06:49 GMT -6
I am now back to just using the one volume Greyharp version of OD&D.
I guess I have to vote for this one too.
Hoping to do a completely pure version in the near future, retaining all original text no matter how superfluous to a single volume. Based on the first print too.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Sept 11, 2019 10:17:18 GMT -6
Since I've acquired the Greyharp one-volume 0D&D compilation, I have shifted all of my efforts back to the original rules, warts and all. As others have mentioned, all of the clones out there an provide supplemental ideas to use as house rules, new races, new classes, and adventures, all of which can be easily holted onto the original game (five commas in one sentence = grammar critical strike.)
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Post by countingwizard on Sept 11, 2019 13:03:48 GMT -6
I also noticed the other day that the reference sheet from Keep on the Borderlands has OD&D saving throws listed instead of Basic. Good spot! I've pointed out in the past that statistically, hit points in B2 more accurately match the OD&D d6 hit dice scheme. This makes me wonder when the original authors of D&D and modules stopped adding new ideas and changes to the game and started preserving the rules they created/used.
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