Variety of Treasure in 1st Monster & Treasure Assortment

[delta]

I don't have the original 3-part OD&D Monster & Treasure Assortment (M&TA) from 1977; wish I did. Ernie Gygax has said a number of times that he generated the treasures there by rolling on the OD&D tables as an after-middle-school project. I assume that had to be the Vol-3 "dungeon treasure" table, because it's the only thing keyed to dungeon level as is M&TA.

What I do have is the combined M&TA product that covers all levels 1-9 (1980), which I believe was re-tuned to be compatible with the Basic set of the time. I notice that treasures here include copper, electrum, and platinum pieces, which cannot be generated by the OD&D Vol-3 table. Also: The Vol-3 table states that "Silver will always be in the treasure", but the majority of treasures in my copy have only a single type, practically never silver + something else.

Question to someone who has access: Do the original M&TA books include copper, electrum, and platinum? Are the treasures also majority single type, usually lacking silver? I'd kind of like to run statistics on that treasure assortment, but (alas) I think that would only be useful with the original pure-OD&D versions.

[waysoftheearth]

Hey delta, I have a couple of early prints.

They are a set of (eight or so?) loose leaves printed on both sides of stiff, approximately letter-sized, card.

The first handful of treasure items from Set One are:

LEVEL ONE

1. 250 GP
2. 100 SP
3. 1000 CP
4. 600 SP
5. 1 ESP potion
6. 500 CP
7. 3 -- 100 GP Gems
8. 1000 SP
9. 700 SP
10. 300 GP
11. 200 SP
12. 600 SP

etc.

There are plenty of entries with either EP or PP (which are described in M&T, p39).

However (skimming thru the entries quickly) I don't think I see any entry with more than one type of coin or treasure. It's pretty difficult (for me) to reconcile the M&TA list with what would likely be generated by my interpretation of the dungeon treasure table in U&WA... but that's me.

Hope that helps

[delta]

Mar 4, 2018 0:30:27 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

There are plenty of entries with either EP or PP (which are described in M&T, p39).

However (skimming thru the entries quickly) I don't think I see any entry with more than one type of coin or treasure. It's pretty difficult (for me) to reconcile the M&TA list with what would likely be generated by my interpretation of the dungeon treasure table in U&WA... but that's me.

Hope that helps

That helps a lot! I agree that it's hard to rectify with the Vol-3 table (and fairly surprising, based on what Ernie said). Very informative, thanks for the description.

[robertsconley]

My impression that the assortments were curated were not solely the result of random rolls.

[foster1941]

It seems more likely the table used by Ernie was something like the one in the Solo Dungeon Adventures system in SR#1 (later AD&D DMG Appendix A), not the table in D&D vol. 3, for the reasons noted. I did a bunch of wanky study and analysis of the Monster & Treasure Assortments a dozen or so years ago. I remember wanting to figure out the ranges of the treasure amounts by level to see if I could reverse-engineer the system that was used to generate them, but I think my enthusiasm waned before I actually got that far.

[foster1941]

So, just for fun I did a quick tally of the treasures from level one of the M&TA (1977 version, though all the monetary treasure is identical in the 1980 version):

COPPER PIECES - 28 (range: 100-1200; average 636)
SILVER PIECES - 28 (range: 100-1100; average 543)
ELECTRUM PIECES - 11 (range: 150-800; average 473)
GOLD PIECES - 11 (range: 150-450; average 291)
PLATINUM PIECES - 7 (range: 30-110; average 70)
GEMS 4 (1-3 gems, value range 50-100 GP each; average 200)
JEWELRY - 3 (1 jewel each, value range: 700-1400; average 1133)
MAGIC ITEMS - 8 (1 item each; 3 potions, 1 scroll, 1 misc. magic, 1 armor, 2 misc. weapons)

This looks pretty close to the SR1/DMG Appendix A "without monster" table for distribution by type (a bit more copper, silver, and magic; a bit less electrum, gold, and platinum), but the amounts are different - more variable and generally lower.

FWIW I also briefly glanced at the other levels, and determined that entries containing both CP & SP appear on level 6, CP+SP+EP on level 7, CP+SP+EP+GP on level 8, and all 5 coin types on level 9. There are no entries containing only CP past level 5 (though entries of only SP, only EP, only GP, and only PP continue to appear on all 9 levels). Gems, jewelry, and magic items are never mixed with other types of treasure, but the quantity of each increases by level.

If anyone else wants to continue this exercise to see how the trends hold up for the other 8 levels, feel free

[foster1941]

Also, FWIW, the average value of the 92 monetary treasures is 155 GP.

[robertsconley]

When I wrote the Wild North a couple of years back I wrote a utility in VB.NET that generated things in accordance to OD&D. I had a button that handled unguarded treasure.

I attached a run going through levels 1 to 9 generating a 100 treasure each.

Attachments:

Monsters Treasure Assortment Per Book 3.txt (22.06 KB)

[robertsconley]

The same but with Strategic Review #1 rules applied.

Attachments:

Monsters Treasure Assortment Per SR1.txt (11.19 KB)

[Stormcrow]

Mar 9, 2018 10:15:16 GMT -6 Piper said:

Mar 9, 2018 9:56:13 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

My impression that the assortments were curated were not solely the result of random rolls.

I can recall Ernie talking about that, once upon a GenCon. I seem to remember (and it's been a while ... a long while) him claiming he used the chart in the rules.

Why can't it be both?

"I rolled only 1,000 copper pieces in that treasure. Eh, make it 6,000 copper pieces." Robert's "not solely" means rolled and curated.

[robertsconley]

Mar 9, 2018 13:52:45 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Mar 9, 2018 10:15:16 GMT -6 Piper said:

I can recall Ernie talking about that, once upon a GenCon. I seem to remember (and it's been a while ... a long while) him claiming he used the chart in the rules.

Why can't it be both?

"I rolled only 1,000 copper pieces in that treasure. Eh, make it 6,000 copper pieces." Robert's "not solely" means rolled and curated.

That what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. Also my result use the Book III tables not Greyhawk's magic item tables. Also note that the magic item tables don't account for dungeon level. With luck you can find a really good magic item on the first level. Or a really shirtty one on the 9th level.

[foster1941]

Mar 9, 2018 13:56:28 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Also note that the magic item tables don't account for dungeon level. With luck you can find a really good magic item on the first level. Or a really nutsty one on the 9th level.

And in fact we see that in TSR's published version, where the Manual of Puissant Skill at Arms shows up on the level one table. Sure it's a one-use item so it's not quite like dropping a staff of power or a life-stealing sword, but it's still something that conventional wisdom would generally categorize as a surprisingly good item to show up on dungeon level one, likely in the possession of some giant centipedes or fire beetles or whatever (and somebody at TSR must have felt the same way, because in the 1980 version the Manual was replaced with a scroll of 1 spell: fireball).

[robertsconley]

And while we are on the topic. In the Majestic Wilderlands magic items availability is not the same as OD&D has it. So I modified the treasure generation rules to reflect my conception. And I modified it to reflect the fact I have only two type of coins; a silver penny (d) and a gold crown worth 320d.

I also ditched the level thing and made assortments of specific values. This offered for me more control over what went where without adding a zillion more treasure types like AD&D did.

The attached tables are just the end result of my treasure generation system. If anybody interested I will be glad to format my current draft and post it. The since about my work it can be easily tweaked to be more magic rich or poor.

Attachments:

MW Treasure Assortments.pdf (157.33 KB)

[robertsconley]

Mar 9, 2018 14:09:14 GMT -6 foster1941 said:

And in fact we see that in TSR's published version, where the Manual of Puissant Skill at Arms shows up on the level one table. S

I hope I don't sound like an idiot when I say, what do you mean by a level 1 table? There isn't a level magic item table. There is a level 1 guarded treasure table that has lower odds of a magic item appearing (Book 3 Page 7). But if rolled then you go to the magic item generation chart where anything can appear (Book 2 Page 23, or Greyhawk Page 40).

Or are you talking about AD&D?

[foster1941]

Mar 9, 2018 14:15:34 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Mar 9, 2018 14:09:14 GMT -6 foster1941 said:

And in fact we see that in TSR's published version, where the Manual of Puissant Skill at Arms shows up on the level one table. S

I hope I don't sound like an idiot when I say, what do you mean by a level 1 table? There isn't a level magic item table. There is a level 1 guarded treasure table that has lower odds of a magic item appearing (Book 3 Page 7). But if rolled then you go to the magic item generation chart where anything can appear (Book 2 Page 23, or Greyhawk Page 40).

Or are you talking about AD&D?

I'm talking about the level one Treasure Assortment in TSR's Monster and Treasure Assortment Set One: Levels One-Three. 100 pre-rolled treasures for 1st level dungeons. #76 is the Manual of Puissant Skill at Arms (in the 1977 version). Presumably when Ernie Gygax was rolling these entries up he got "magic item," then rolled on the tables in Greyhawk to see what the item was, and that item came up, and he decided to leave it in rather than re-roll or choose something more ostensibly-level-appropriate (like a scroll of 1 spell). In other words, he did the same thing you did when you were generating your tables, and I was agreeing with you by way of an example.

[robertsconley]

Got it now thanks.

[foster1941]

Another thing worth noting about the M&TAs: especially at the higher levels the percentage of magical treasure is nowhere close to the 3% suggested in the SR1 table. There are 8 magic item entries on the level 1 list, 9 on the level 2 list, 16 on the level 3 list, and 20-25 per level on levels 4-9 (and, additionally, many of those entries consist multiple magic items - there are several entries on the level 4-6 lists with 2 magic items, some on the level 7-8 lists with 3-4 items, and some on the level 9 list with a half dozen or more items).

[Zenopus]

I posted a similar analysis of the M&TA a few years ago here. Like T. Foster, I lost steam after Level 1, although I see I have the numbers inputted for the second level, so I'll try to post those here.

After seeing T. Foster's numbers I went back to my spreadsheet and found a few errors, which I've corrected in my original post.

In that thread I also posted a possible table to roughly fit the numbers:
(re-posted here with slight revision)

01-28: 1d12 x 100 CP -------------------[Av 650]
29-56: 1d10 x 100 SP -------------------[Av 550]
57-67: 2d8 x 50 EP ----------------------[Av 450]
68-78: 2d4+1 x 50 GP -------------------[Av 300]
79-85: 3d4 x 10 PP -----------------------[Av 75]
86-89: 1d3 gems of 100 GP value ----[Av 200 GP] (found as 50 GP or 100 GP gems)
90-92: 1 jewelry of 3d6 x 100 GP -----[Av 1050 GP]
93-00: Random Magic Item -------------[N/A]

Edit: changed EP from 1d8 x 100 EP to 2d8 x 50 EP, because the results in the table have many entries that end in 50 (e.g. 550).

Likewise, changed GP from 1d6 x 100 GP to 2d4+1 x 50 GP. Not as elegant, but will produce results closer to the table - range 150-450, average 291

[Zenopus]

Here are the results from the 100 treasure entries of Set 1, Lvl 2:

Percentages:
1-20: Copper - 1255 coins average (range 100-2200 CP)
21-42: Silver - 1209 coins average (range 100-2200 SP)
43-54: Electrum - 954 coins average (range 550-1200 EP)
55-67: Gold - 481 coins average (range 300-700 GP)
68-79: Platinum - 176 coins average (range 50-250 PP)
80-84: Gem - 440 average treasure value (range 3-8 gems of 50 or 100 GP)
85-91: Jewelry - 1614 (range 1-3 pieces of value 600-1500 GP)
92-100: Magic Item - 1

Average GP value of a treasure that is coins: 325
Average GP value of a treasure with monetary value (coins + gems + jewelry): 431

We can roughly say that over time the average GP of the treasure for 2nd level encounters (e.g. 5-20 Kobolds, 2-8 Berserkers, 4-16 Centipedes) should be about 431 GP.

Or, 79% of treasure is coins with an average value of 325 GP, 5% are gems averaging 440 GP in value, 7% is jewelry averaging 1614 GP in value, and 9% is a single magic item.

[foster1941]

Those proportions and amounts are both still pretty reasonably in line with the SR1 table, if we substitute a die roll for the flat amounts of coins. I’m thinking the roll for magic items may have been an independent preliminary roll - maybe 5% per level that the treasure is a magic item up to a max 25%, after which the number of items increases; if not then roll on the SR1 table (plus another sub-rule that at level 5+ copper becomes mixed coins).

[tetramorph]

robertsconley, can we get access to your treasure generator? That would be rad.

Also, does it have a LBB only mode?

Fight on!

[robertsconley]

OK I added my Old School Generator to this post. It is a zip file with three files. A PDF with instructions, the executable, and a support library it needs. Just unzip into a directory and run. It should run on Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 10 without installing anything else as it uses the .NET framework that already installed.



RuinsGenerate.zip (52.22 KB)

[robertsconley]

For the next series of files you will need Inspiration Pad Pro 3 from NBos. It is free.
www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro

Here is the latest Majestic Wilderlands Random Treasure Table. I am leaning heavily to dropping the frequency of Magic Items for the next campaign.

Treasure Generation Hoard.ipt (36.08 KB)

Random memorized spells for Magic Users

Memorized Spells v2.ipt (17.55 KB)

Random Spell books for Magic Users

Spell books v1.ipt (9.68 KB)

The difference is that Spell Books don't have multiples of the same spells. Also has different set of odds from memorized spells.

The odds of both reflect my considered opinion on what the average magic user wants to memorize and wants to have inscribed in their spell book. Particularly for memorized spells it reflect the everyday memorization a magic user would do. If the magic user knows they are going into a specific situation then the spell list would be tailored from their spell book.

This was born from me asking a few years back on what magic users would memorize and why. I didn't get any satisfactory answers so I when I had the time I went through each spell thought about the odds of it being used.

For a PDF of the rules you can download it for free from here.

www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Random%20Memorized%20Spells.pdf

It also includes random assortments of memorized spells.

[robertsconley]

Next is what I use to generate the inventory of a magic item shop.

Magic Shop Inventory.ipt (36.23 KB)

Per this price list
www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic_Item_Creation_Rev_2.pdf

Judges Guild City State of the Invincible Overlord random encounters
City_Encounters.ipt (11.65 KB)

[grodog]

Some guys in our gaming group posted their magic item generator as a Magic Shop Generator over on DF: www.dragonsfoot.org/php4/archive.php?sectioninit=FE&fileid=254&watchfile=0

This is built from an AD&D vs. OD&D baseline and only includes magical treasures/items vs. all treasure types (maps, monetary, gems/jewelry, magic items).

Allan.