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Post by smubee on Jul 28, 2017 21:28:33 GMT -6
Castle Greyhawk is perhaps the most frustrating (and exciting) parts of being a fan of OD&D and D&D in general. It's elusive.. And on some level, most of us have a fascination with it. Other than the Blackmoor dungeons, Castle Greyhawk is the oldest dungeon in our favourite games history. But what do we really have of Castle Greyhawk? What information do we know about it, and how many maps do we have of it? I'm starting this thread to show what we know.. Maps, notes, or stories from people who played in the original castle. I want to know it all...!! Edit : the reason for this thread was seeing this photo of just one level of the notorious castle  |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jul 28, 2017 21:38:30 GMT -6
My understanding is Ernie believes your pic is level 1 of the expanded dungeon. - And that circle in the lower center was a boulder pushed around the corridors after the hapless players.  There is sooooo... much else to post here I'll leave the professionals to it for now. |
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Post by smubee on Jul 28, 2017 21:46:08 GMT -6
I had messages Ernie a few nights ago about something that has always intrigued me since reading OD&D for the first time -- Greyhawk's bowling alley.
I had wondered how exactly this operated, if it was run by Giants and one could pay to play, or if it was a type of torture device used by Giants, where they would use their prisoners as their pins and smash them with smoothed boulders.
This was his response --
"The Bowling Alley was not for anyone to use for fun. It was a trap that could have you take damage from rolling boulders that were sent from beyond your sight. More like something from the old Land of the Giants program. It was part of the Gem Garden with the Evil Wizardress and her Were-Tiger - Giant guard patrols. I used to make raids into the gem garden for huge experience points. The gutters were presented as a safe place from the boulders until Dad then had a poor bowler come to the line."
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Post by grodog on Jul 28, 2017 21:52:28 GMT -6
But what do we really have of Castle Greyhawk? What information do we know about it, and how many maps do we have of it? I'm starting this thread to show what we know.. Maps, notes, or stories from people who played in the original castle. I want to know it all...!! Well, I've been compiling info about the Castle for decades now, smubee, and we know a lot more now than we did before. In fact, last night I just started a new series of articles on my blog that will delve into the current "state of the state" on what we know about the Castle, across its incarnations. See grodog.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-many-levels-of-castle-greyhawk-part-1.html for the post. I also tried to summarize this info over on ENWorld some years ago at www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?294734-What-s-the-current-in-print-status-of-Castle-Zagyg&p=5338031&viewfull=1#post5338031 but I think the material on my site at www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle.html is likely more current (but I'm working on general updates to that info as part of this new series of blog articles too). One of the items I've planned to build, but haven't started to date, is an archive of the known pictures of Castle Greyhawk and El Raja Key dungeon levels from various auctions, online sources, etc. from over the years. Allan. |
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Post by smubee on Jul 28, 2017 22:34:58 GMT -6
But what do we really have of Castle Greyhawk? What information do we know about it, and how many maps do we have of it? I'm starting this thread to show what we know.. Maps, notes, or stories from people who played in the original castle. I want to know it all...!! Well, I've been compiling info about the Castle for decades now, smubee , and we know a lot more now than we did before. In fact, last night I just started a new series of articles on my blog that will delve into the current "state of the state" on what we know about the Castle, across its incarnations. See grodog.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-many-levels-of-castle-greyhawk-part-1.html for the post. I also tried to summarize this info over on ENWorld some years ago at www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?294734-What-s-the-current-in-print-status-of-Castle-Zagyg&p=5338031&viewfull=1#post5338031 but I think the material on my site at www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle.html is likely more current (but I'm working on general updates to that info as part of this new series of blog articles too). One of the items I've planned to build, but haven't started to date, is an archive of the known pictures of Castle Greyhawk and El Raja Key dungeon levels from various auctions, online sources, etc. from over the years. Allan. Absolutely fascinating, Allan. I did not know that your work on the subject existed, but will be reading thoroughly! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 23:16:31 GMT -6
Well, turds on toast, I never knew there was a gem garden!
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Post by smubee on Jul 29, 2017 9:05:41 GMT -6
Well, turds on toast, I never knew there was a gem garden! Glad I could have been some help to you. Now if only you knew about 42 years ago  |
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Post by Zenopus on Jul 30, 2017 14:19:39 GMT -6
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Post by foxroe on Jul 30, 2017 19:34:53 GMT -6
Links to some other threads I started that have useful info from the community: The Great Stone Face EnigmaThe Old CastleAllan's site is definitely the go-to source for all things Greyhawk. I'm glad to see he's adding more info. |
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Post by rossik on Jul 31, 2017 8:54:27 GMT -6
thats always a great topic!
a archive would be very impressive and useful!
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Post by grodog on Aug 10, 2017 15:51:01 GMT -6
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Post by foxroe on Aug 10, 2017 23:11:52 GMT -6
Very nice, Allan! And I agree with EotB; this is great info for those of us who enjoy creating our own Greyhawk. Just out of curiosity, grodog or Ghul , how closely would CZ have adhered to the Gygax-Kuntz version of CG? Was Gary changing things up a bit to separate CZ from the original CG? |
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Post by grodog on Aug 11, 2017 21:19:26 GMT -6
Very nice, Allan! And I agree with EotB; this is great info for those of us who enjoy creating our own Greyhawk. Thanks, and I agree: being able to get inspired by the origial material, and to redesign it by reusing the parts of maps or keys that catch our eye is one of the reasons why they still hold our interest (or at least I think so anyway ). Just out of curiosity, grodog or Ghul , how closely would CZ have adhered to the Gygax-Kuntz version of CG? Was Gary changing things up a bit to separate CZ from the original CG? Gary stated at various times bits and pieces about how his approach to Castle Zagyg differed from the original, including in the intro to The Storerooms booklet in the CZ boxed set: So, Gary was basically doing a "best of" Castle Greyhawk in the CZ project. Allan. |
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Post by mgtremaine on Aug 12, 2017 15:04:45 GMT -6
Stir not the cup of bitterness that is CZ.  Good reads on blog waiting for the next one. -Mike |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Aug 12, 2017 17:43:31 GMT -6
Just out of curiosity, how much of Castle Zagyg was Gary leading the work and how much was him giving his co-creator license to develop it? I hear murmurs about Upper Works, a product of which I'm a fan, but it's hard to tell given how Gary's own style changed over the many years and games he wrote.
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Post by scottenkainen on Aug 23, 2017 8:25:23 GMT -6
That's a good question only the coauthors and some of the editorial staff at Troll Lord Games would know the answer to. Given how Gary liked to work, I'd say 40/60, with the majority of the work coming from the coauthors, is a safe bet. But I don't know that anyone's ever come forward and said.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Aug 23, 2017 12:13:15 GMT -6
I've been developing the work since it came out. Well, off and on. And I find there are inspirational parts that are very good. And evidence of the early D&D dungeons within, namely level 1 The Storerooms. But it's also hard to tell how much is Gary and how much is anyone else. I'm pretty sure he didn't write most of the text given it's textbook nature. Plus all the cutting and pasting of duplicate text descriptions. But the structural design appears mostly his.
The layout makes it hard for me to run this due to the walls of text. That was my initial (extensive) development as I made lengthy game aid quick reference sheets so I could tell at a glance all the pertinent details in all of the areas. Then came hand outs, difficult areas needing illustrations, advice to myself on running portions.
As I've worked out more and more how to run OD&D I've applied extrapolations to the design. Just basic elements making the design a little more gameable and adding explanations when where there weren't any (which I think Gary wants DMs to do, make it our own).
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Post by grodog on Aug 23, 2017 20:57:41 GMT -6
The layout makes it hard for me to run this due to the walls of text. That was my initial (extensive) development as I made lengthy game aid quick reference sheets so I could tell at a glance all the pertinent details in all of the areas. Then came hand outs, difficult areas needing illustrations, advice to myself on running portions. These sound like quite useful references, David: any chance you can share them? Allan. |
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Post by mgtremaine on Aug 24, 2017 6:34:33 GMT -6
Not sure if this is useful or not but I dug it out and read through and pulled this quote...
From Crusder #9 (pg-24-26)
THE DWEOMERCRAEFTER'S DEN
by Jeffrey Talanian with E. Gary Gygax edited by E. Gary Gygax
So most of the actual text is Jeffrey's aka Ghul on the various forums. Peter Bradly did layout and illustrations as per this....
Now as you can image Ghul was pretty crushed when the license was pulled and worked stopped. There is much he can't reveal and it's pretty sad all around. On the bright side he shifted gears and wrote Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea which was really nicely done and still going strong.
-Mike
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Post by howandwhy99 on Aug 24, 2017 19:47:33 GMT -6
Thank you mgtremaine . I've been looking for PDFs of some of the earlier Crusaders specifically for that reason. I never thought to collect them at the time. What you say seems to match up. grodog I've been thinking this over. I can PM you a version after a quick edit removing personal alterations. I'm not looking to go public with these though for a number of reasons. EDIT: an old 5th edition playtest using zagyg. |
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Post by rossik on Sept 2, 2017 5:33:57 GMT -6
Just listened to a Sacred Secorum podcast with Ernie, and hi tells this story about a giant guarding the stairs to lower levels. He would let you down stairs, but when you went up, he would charge magical itens. The same to a group of elves, who would charge 10% coins and magical item.
All that is suppose to be in GH castle?
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Post by foxroe on Sept 2, 2017 6:49:14 GMT -6
Just listened to a Sacred Secorum podcast with Ernie, and hi tells this story about a giant guarding the stairs to lower levels. He would let you down stairs, but when you went up, he would charge magical itens. The same to a group of elves, who would charge 10% coins and magical item. All that is suppose to be in GH castle? Sounds about right. I seem to recall reading about the giant somewhere else, and the elf-tortion (bad pun for "extortion") was common to Blackmoor as well I believe (not a Blackmoor expert though). I'm sure Allan's site (or Allan himself) has the info. |
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Post by grodog on Sept 2, 2017 8:39:29 GMT -6
Just listened to a Sacred Secorum podcast with Ernie, and hi tells this story about a giant guarding the stairs to lower levels. He would let you down stairs, but when you went up, he would charge magical itens. The same to a group of elves, who would charge 10% coins and magical item. All that is suppose to be in GH castle? Is this the podcast you meant, rossik?: www.vorpalchainsword.com/ernie-gygax.htmlSounds about right. I seem to recall reading about the giant somewhere else, and the elf-tortion (bad pun for "extortion") was common to Blackmoor as well I believe (not a Blackmoor expert though). I'm sure Allan's site (or Allan himself) has the info. Yes indeed! Gary recounts these in his various "Up on a Soapbox" essays in Paizo-era Dragon, as well as in some of the accounts about the history of the development of the Castle and Dungeons: see www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html and www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources.htmlAllan. |
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Post by rossik on Sept 2, 2017 8:45:25 GMT -6
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Post by scottyg on Sept 2, 2017 10:48:53 GMT -6
I don't remember if it was the 1st or 3rd level of the expanded dungeons, but the dungeon split into 4 branches below, one branch was guarded by elves (Expedition to the Black Reservoir), another had dwarves, there was the giant, and the fourth could only be accessed by finding a secret door. The guardians, tweaked slightly, all made it into Castle Zagyg.
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Post by scottyg on Sept 2, 2017 10:50:27 GMT -6
The players eventually killed the giant, btw. Not sure if that was mentioned in the podcast or not.
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Post by rossik on Sept 4, 2017 16:44:03 GMT -6
The players eventually killed the giant, btw. Not sure if that was mentioned in the podcast or not. no, it was not, but its great to know |
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Good reads on blog waiting for the next one.
