Gor as an inspiration for Blackmoor

[havard]

Interesting topic.
As I pointed out in the Comeback Inn discussion about Blackmoor's literary influences, Dave Arneson's players told me they would read anything related to fantasy or sci fi that they could get their hands on. The main issue back then was that there wasn't all that much literature of those genres out there, so fans would read what you could find. I am sure that is true for Gygax and the Lake Geneva gamers too.

Another thing: In interviews, Dave Arneson made specific references to some novels and authors, but AFAIK he never mentioned Norman/Gor. There could be plenty of reasons for that omssion. Either he forgot about it, he was aware how the novels have been viewed in later years, or the the books didn't make that heavy of an impact on them.

As Finarvyn and Increment (Jon) point out the elements that show Norman's impact on the games in the FFC are references to specific types of slaves in the price lists etc as well as several references to Tarns & Tarn Riders. Some maps also have a region called "The Hills of Gor", but I don't know whether that region was added by TSR or existed on older maps.

Now I am not suggesting that Dave Arneson didn't read any of Norman's novels, but it is also quite possible that things like slave types and tarns/tarn riders were added because some of the players asked about them. I think it is risky to assume that books have had a deeper impact on the campaign/setting than the specific elements that were drawn from them.

-Havard

[increment]

Aug 2, 2017 7:24:10 GMT -6 havard said:

I think it is risky to assume that books have had a deeper impact on the campaign/setting than the specific elements that were drawn from them.

Certainly true. But if we wind this back to the parent thread, the one about the part sex played in the Blackmoor setting, the question is not so much what the Gor books triggered as how the campaign integrated these setting elements. That price list for pleasure slaves does not exist in isolation in the FFC; see the text about women as a "special interest", i.e.: "The player will immediately proceed to the local establishment and expend all funds desired on room plus extras at that place. Slaves of the appropriate type (left to player) may also be purchased with the funds utilized to fulfill this classification. These slaves may then be sold at a reduced value, the difference being credited to the player's account."

Now there's a lot innuendo in that; in the original passage "establishment" and "room" and "extras" are all capitalized to make sure we read them the right way. And what might have happened to reduce the value of the slaves is left to the imagination (we do read in the Gor snippets on that site I linked above about price differentials between red and white silk). Innuendo along those lines is common in Blackmoor documents; we read in the Blackmoor Gazette & Rumormonger #1 about entertainments offered by a gypsy band in which the players partook, including "private performances by individual female members of the troupe." I don't think we are supposed to understand that to stop at belly dancing.

Heroic fantasy literature is full of this kind of stuff, but the striking thing about Gor in Blackmoor is that, as I previously said, it seems to be the only fantasy series Blackmoor drew setting elements from that is not also referenced in baseline D&D. That makes me reluctant to downplay it. A lot of people had read Gor, yes, surely including Gygax. It is not (to an earlier post) some kind of shameful thing to know these books, and we shouldn't let those kinds of concerns make us turn a blind eye to the direction that historical evidence leads us.

[Malcadon]

For those without the First Fantasy Campaign (or those with it, but frustrated by how cluttered the information is), I have compiled a list of Gor-based items for sale. I had done my bast to make a list based on the information found in the FFC and the LBBs. The stats for example, I mostly pulled that from out my butt, but its workable. I should note that the cost of slaves from FFC are ALL over the map!

Monster Type	Number Appearing	Armor Class	Move (in inches)	Hit Dice	% In Liar	Type or Amount of Treasure	Market Cost (in gp)
Rocs, Wild	1-20	4	6/48	6	16%	Type I	200
Rocs, Cargo	1-6	4	4/24	5	15%	Type A	200
Rocs, Racing	1-3	5	9/72	2	15%	Nil	300
Rocs, War	2-12	3	4/24	8-10	15%	Nil	400/1600/6400

(revised from D&D v2: M&T with FFC content):
Rocs: This term has been used to encompass large and fierce birds such as the "Eagles" of Tolkien or "Tarns" of John Norman's Gor, but the Roc of mythology preys upon elephants! Therefor, the data given for Rocs is understood to be that for the small variety, and that for the largest Rocs should be doubled or even tripled. All Rocs nest high in the most inaccessible mountains, and if an encounter is made when a Rocs are in their lair, that is their nest, there is a 40% chance there will be from 1-3 young therein (eggs, chicks, or flightless-fledglings with 2HD). Young Rocs can be tamed and taught to serve as steeds. Tamed Rocs can be bread to produce young born for racing, hauling cargo, or war. Racing Rocs have a range of 50 miles. Cargo Rocs can hold up to 10 people. Adults are always hostile if there are young in the nest. 60% chance of them remaining Neutral, 20% Hostile, and 20% Friendly (but not too friendly). Should the largest member of the attacking group be killed, then whole group will break off for one turn and make a morale throw. Capture value 10GP times their hit point value.


New Items and Services

Ariel Saddle	40 gp
Slave, Male	40-115* (48 avg) gp
Slave, Female	575-950** (763 avg) gp

Personnel Cost (in GP for a year's pay and upkeep)

Tarn Trainer	400-2,000
Slave Trainer	350-3,500
Eagle Rider	40***
Slave, Male	10-50
Slave, Female, "Red Silk"	25-130
Slave, Female, "White Silk"	35-250
Slave, Female, Special	300-3,500

*25 + 5 x Strength
**500 + 25 x Charisma
***no equipment

Colors of the Kajira
Meaning and context over "silk colors" gets thrown around online, with everybody having their own interpretations, with a lot of debates on the matter. In the books, white silks are worn by virgin slaves (in a purely biological sense), while red silks were worn after being "opened up" by a man. (I cant help but to think that the men of Gor are obsessed with "MIB;NRFB" and "new-car smell") Online, there are those who define the white/red colors to be more figurative. That is, white silk could mean "do not touch" by the owner, while red silk denotes a pleasure slave friends and guests my use.

Unfortunately, other colors were noted in the books without a lot of context to go by. Such colors could denote slaves with special skills (midwives, medicine-women, etc.) or status (vestal virgins, sacred priestesses, consort of a ruler or High-Priest, and so on). If that is the case, it if safe to assume that they quit likely constitute "Special", in the above list. But the best part about role-playing games is the ability make things up.

[havard]

Aug 2, 2017 10:04:27 GMT -6 increment said:

Aug 2, 2017 7:24:10 GMT -6 havard said:

I think it is risky to assume that books have had a deeper impact on the campaign/setting than the specific elements that were drawn from them.

Certainly true. But if we wind this back to the parent thread, the one about the part sex played in the Blackmoor setting, the question is not so much what the Gor books triggered as how the campaign integrated these setting elements. That price list for pleasure slaves does not exist in isolation in the FFC; see the text about women as a "special interest", i.e.: "The player will immediately proceed to the local establishment and expend all funds desired on room plus extras at that place. Slaves of the appropriate type (left to player) may also be purchased with the funds utilized to fulfill this classification. These slaves may then be sold at a reduced value, the difference being credited to the player's account."

Now there's a lot innuendo in that; in the original passage "establishment" and "room" and "extras" are all capitalized to make sure we read them the right way. And what might have happened to reduce the value of the slaves is left to the imagination (we do read in the Gor snippets on that site I linked above about price differentials between red and white silk). Innuendo along those lines is common in Blackmoor documents; we read in the Blackmoor Gazette & Rumormonger #1 about entertainments offered by a gypsy band in which the players partook, including "private performances by individual female members of the troupe." I don't think we are supposed to understand that to stop at belly dancing.

Heroic fantasy literature is full of this kind of stuff, but the striking thing about Gor in Blackmoor is that, as I previously said, it seems to be the only fantasy series Blackmoor drew setting elements from that is not also referenced in baseline D&D. That makes me reluctant to downplay it. A lot of people had read Gor, yes, surely including Gygax. It is not (to an earlier post) some kind of shameful thing to know these books, and we shouldn't let those kinds of concerns make us turn a blind eye to the direction that historical evidence leads us.

I agree with all of this. I was trying to avoid what Finarvyn was pointing out would be splitting hairs on what a major influence is, but it is so tempting to go there

Another example of references to sexual behavior (if you want to call it that), is from the report written by Dave Arneson in Strategic Review 3 (1975) where he says that:

"A band of heroes went through the ol’ teleporter, and after mucking around awhile (robbery, kidnapping, murder, rape, etc.) "

I personally doubt that rape would be something that would have been an important activity on this gaming session, but unless this is just Dave adding some cheeky humor when retelling the story, I guess some jokes like that could also have been made during the session. I would assume that the special interests section too, while certainly part of the game, would have been seen as a minor aspect of the game, when compared to more traditional D&D type aspects of the game.

You make a good point about Gor not being the only fantasy fiction to go into this sort of thing. Conan is certainly not void of sexual elements and gamers well versed in Ancients games would probably also feel like slavery would be a natural element in the game. Dave Arneson also presented a brothel as a gaming location to the 1981 Thieves World supplement IIRC.

It is indeed interesting that D&D did not include any of these elements. I wonder if that was a conscious omission by Gygax, or simply that D&D ended up focusing mainly on combat, collecting treasure etc. I think that the Special Interests rules (modified perhaps) is something early D&D players could have appreciated.

-Havard

[oakesspalding]

Oh, I think it was obviously conscious. It's clear that Gygax felt that dwelling on slaves or slavery, or worse, sexualized female slavery, was not appropriate in a quasi-mainstream game. The word "slave" does not appear in the three little brown books. It does not appear in the Player's Handbook. It does appear a few times in the DMG, but always as a sort of quick aside - slaves as the lowest rung on the social scale, along with peasants and serfs, who always had the potential to revolt, etc., or in the context of kobolds enslaved by hobgoblins or whatever. There are no price lists for slaves, though they do get a separate mention in a loyalty table (they're not very loyal). But the DMG does go into a huge amount of detail about the characteristics of quasi-medieval economy and society.

Contrast that with their ubiquitous presence in many fantasy stories of the time (not just the Gor series) along with their ubiquitous presence in, well, history.

This was of course the correct decision. Maybe some players would get their jollies from contemplating purchasing a "special" female slave, or whatever. But many more would be annoyed or offended, however the subject was presented.

Whatever Gygax's other faults (which were many) or Arneson's other virtues (which were many), Gygax did seem to have more of a head for these things.

[havard]

Aug 3, 2017 1:10:40 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

Oh, I think it was obviously conscious. It's clear that Gygax felt that dwelling on slaves or slavery, or worse, sexualized female slavery, was not appropriate in a quasi-mainstream game. The word "slave" does not appear in the three little brown books. It does not appear in the Player's Handbook. It does appear a few times in the DMG, but always as a sort of quick aside - slaves as the lowest rung on the social scale, along with peasants and serfs, who always had the potential to revolt, etc., or in the context of kobolds enslaved by hobgoblins or whatever. There are no price lists for slaves, though they do get a separate mention in a loyalty table (they're not very loyal). But the DMG does go into a huge amount of detail about the characteristics of quasi-medieval economy and society.

Contrast that with their ubiquitous presence in many fantasy stories of the time (not just the Gor series) along with their ubiquitous presence in, well, history.

That makes sense. On the other hand, he could have included things like Tarns, Tarnriders etc, though I suppose Rocs already filled that niche. I agree that it was likely conscious, but I was also considering whether copyright or political sensibilities played in. Possibly both.

Aug 3, 2017 1:10:40 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

This was of course the correct decision. Maybe some players would get their jollies from contemplating purchasing a "special" female slave, or whatever. But many more would be annoyed or offended, however the subject was presented.

Whatever Gygax's other faults (which were many) or Arneson's other virtues (which were many), Gygax did seem to have more of a head for these things.

I agree, but I think one neeeds to take into account that these are two very different situations. For D&D to succceed, it needed to appeal to a wide audience. When the FFC was published OTOH, it had no such ambitions. The main goal was simply to document what the actual Blackmoor Campaign had been about and thus it was brave enough to include elements that might have offended or annoyed some audiences.

Also, I don't recall seeing any such references in Adventures in Fantasy, so Dave Arneson was probably not oblivious to this either, although I don't think anyone is arguing that Gygax wasn't the better businessman of the two.

I do think that the subject of slavery can be adressed in an RPG, but it works a lot better if it is handled in a mature way. Al Qadim did a pretty job with this IIRC.



-Havard

[geoffrey]

Slavery, human sacrifice, etc. play big roles in the Five Empires of Tekumel (the setting of Empire of the Petal Throne), and Prof. Barker did an excellent job of presenting them as ingrained parts of Tekumelani society.

[ritt]

I was at a small local con a few weeks ago, right after Nolan's Dunkirk movie had been released. A few of the younger DM's were running Dunkirk games, or scenarios that were fantasy analogs of Dunkirk. Because it was the last good thing that they had seen and they were excited about it. On a similar note, I remember a weird fad in the 80's, now utterly unspoken of, when all the DM's in my area were putting Larry Niven's Kzinti in their games (None of them had read Niven except the unknown GM who first started it. "Cat-people Nazi samurai who have to earn their names in battle" just sort of passed orally DM to DM).

This hobby is very much young people (Or young-at-heart people) making soup for the camp out of whatever was leftover in the fridge. I would not read too much into it.

[randyb]

Aug 5, 2017 7:00:21 GMT -6 ritt said:

This hobby is very much young people (Or young-at-heart people) making soup for the camp out of whatever was leftover in the fridge. I would not read too much into it.

That is an awesome analogy. And spot on, to boot.

[havard]

Aug 5, 2017 7:47:57 GMT -6 randyb said:

Aug 5, 2017 7:00:21 GMT -6 ritt said:

This hobby is very much young people (Or young-at-heart people) making soup for the camp out of whatever was leftover in the fridge. I would not read too much into it.

That is an awesome analogy. And spot on, to boot.

Yep. Love it

-Havard

[korvin0starmast]

Aug 4, 2017 18:37:17 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Slavery, human sacrifice, etc. play big roles in the Five Empires of Tekumel (the setting of Empire of the Petal Throne), and Prof. Barker did an excellent job of presenting them as ingrained parts of Tekumelani society.

Yes, he did.  And I wonder if my having read the first seven or 8 Gor novels while a junior and senior in high school were a bane or a boon to the EPT campaign I started running in 1977.  I bought the last copy of EPT in the game store, and still have the book although the box died a long time ago.  

Although I find the work troubling from a technical standpoint*, I always found it highly amusing that the Gor Saga stands as a notable influence in the development of the role-playing hobby.

John carter of Mars, or that Lin Carter series, with more sex and violence.  I think I can still recall that a pasang is about a seventh of a mile.  I traded the whole set of the Gor books that I had to a second hand book store in 1986 for ... hmm, I can't remember what.  

[Malchor]

Adding from mobile, will clean up the post later.

With no judgements of accuracy, will add a quote from and link to something Greg Svenson said that relates to this topic in an interview on Sham Grog’s blog:

“Well, we stopped making dungeon maps when the group realized that I had much of the dungeon memorized. Of course, that led to problems when Svenny was incapacitated and unable to tell everyone how to get back out of the dungeon. It was the major emphasis for a while, but we quickly moved out into the wilderness. We also had a period of several months, after some of us read the “Tarnsman of Gor” books, where we were traveling around on tarns (think of Rocs in the “Lord of the Rings”). That was after Gary Gygax had started his campaign because one of our adventures was to travel to Grayhawk on tarnback to rescue Gary’s players who had gotten into trouble.”

Full interview here shamsgrog.blogspot.com/2009/05/q-with-greg-svenson.html?m=1