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Post by Scott Anderson on Jul 10, 2017 10:12:05 GMT -6
How do you do it?
I've been thinking about this for a few weeks. How do you pitch old school gaming to the Pathfinder and White Wolf crowd?
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jul 10, 2017 11:58:29 GMT -6
OD&D is relatively rules-lite and therefore is more flexible and encourages significant contribution from refs and players. The learning-curve is nowhere near as steep as, say, 3rd ed. or 3.5 ed. and derivatives. Yeah, it can be confusing, and the presentation (read: artwork) is slapdash, but don't be fooled by the rough-around-the-edges look of it all: big, expensive rulebooks in full-colour with glossy paper doesn't equate to a better game.
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Post by smubee on Jul 10, 2017 13:05:55 GMT -6
The simplicity of it and the creativity.
Explain that there are no feats, this game requires player ingenuity opposed to something being baked into the system.. And it definitely functions as a more traditional game. There is a win in OD&D which is a fundamental difference in how the game is perceived nowadays.
Get treasure, earn XP, build a keep, raise an army, rinse/repeat.
The hilarious part of modern D&D is the lack of treasure items having a purpose other than to "make my character so OP so that I can kill everything in one hit"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 13:38:46 GMT -6
"I'm running OD&D and looking for players."
Never once failed me.
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EdOWar
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Post by EdOWar on Jul 10, 2017 14:27:30 GMT -6
As others have said, emphasize the ease and speed of play. Anyone coming from 3E/4E/PF will be simply amazed at how quickly the game plays. I've heard the comments from such players many times myself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 15:09:34 GMT -6
A couple years ago a younger friend converted from 3.5/Pathfinder to OD&D after playing a few times in my game. He said, and I quote,'I like that I say I want to sneak up behind a guard and knock him out, you roll dice, it happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the d**n game."
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Chainsaw
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by Chainsaw on Jul 10, 2017 17:01:29 GMT -6
This is the game that started it all - let's check it out!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 17:15:59 GMT -6
Really, this is a non issue. In 45 years I have had exactly two people decline to play because of the rules.
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Post by scottenkainen on Jul 10, 2017 17:17:59 GMT -6
Smack the newer edition books out of their hands. Then say, "Don't stoop down and pick up those girly books! Now man up and play some OD&D!"
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jul 11, 2017 9:11:14 GMT -6
Really, this is a non issue. In 45 years I have had exactly two people decline to play because of the rules. It's not the rules. The rules take care of themselves. It's the ethic. Newer edition players expect to be railroaded. Maybe that's what I'm really asking - how do you change the culture at the table to a player-driven, open world style?
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Post by scottenkainen on Jul 11, 2017 9:42:13 GMT -6
It's not the rules. The rules take care of themselves. It's the ethic. Newer edition players expect to be railroaded. Maybe that's what I'm really asking - how do you change the culture at the table to a player-driven, open world style? Possibly by example. Invite some really good, proactive players who tend to take the initiative and start their own plot threads to the table as guest players, so the new players can see that style of play. However, some players are just happy with one style of play and never plan to change. My wife has gamed with many types of players over the years, but all she still wants to do at the table is kill monsters.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 10:54:49 GMT -6
Really, this is a non issue. In 45 years I have had exactly two people decline to play because of the rules. It's not the rules. The rules take care of themselves. It's the ethic. Newer edition players expect to be railroaded. Maybe that's what I'm really asking - how do you change the culture at the table to a player-driven, open world style? Okay, THAT is a different question, and one I STILL struggle with. I was talking about that very issue, how hard it is to get people to "look for adventure", and that same young friend said "I don't know HOW to look for adventure!" That would be a GREAT topic for discussion.
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Post by smubee on Jul 11, 2017 11:12:58 GMT -6
Really, this is a non issue. In 45 years I have had exactly two people decline to play because of the rules. It's not the rules. The rules take care of themselves. It's the ethic. Newer edition players expect to be railroaded. Maybe that's what I'm really asking - how do you change the culture at the table to a player-driven, open world style? It is also kind of the rules and layout. OD&D and AD&D 1e both have a terrible reputation over on the D&D Subreddit.. Although it mostly consists of modern gamers. But nonetheless. Every time I see it brought up, the next few comments are : "BUT THE ART IS HORRENDOUS. LAUGHABLY BAD. PEOPLE LIKED THAT CRAP?"and "D6 for all damage and Hit Points?!?! THIS GAME SUCKS.""OD&D had abysmally constructed rules and makes no sense and does not hold up. People only play it for nostalgia. It is not a good game."
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Post by murquhart72 on Jul 11, 2017 12:03:13 GMT -6
How about "Bee tee dubs, we're playing OD&D tonight."
But the art! Toss 'em a piece of paper and let them show you how easy "art" is.
But the die for hit dice and damage! Stick one in the brain through the eye with a dagger, lop another's head off with a claymore. Then ask 'em which did more "damage".
But the rules are HARD. That's for the referee to worry about. Y'all just sit down and have FUN dammit!
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Post by Falconer on Jul 11, 2017 12:22:34 GMT -6
Whoever is willing to run a game gets to pick the rulebooks. Anyone who complains about the ruleset gets laughed at for their pedantry.
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Post by clownboss on Jul 11, 2017 14:32:59 GMT -6
It's plainly stated in the manual you can hold baronies with your own land holdings and underlings, and that you can play as literally any creature, including dragons. I'm sold.
I think OD&D, more than any other edition, makes it clear it is a battle of wits between the player and the referee, and the rules are obviously made to be bent as extremely as possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 14:52:19 GMT -6
Really, this is a non issue. In 45 years I have had exactly two people decline to play because of the rules. It's not the rules. The rules take care of themselves. It's the ethic. Newer edition players expect to be railroaded. Maybe that's what I'm really asking - how do you change the culture at the table to a player-driven, open world style? When we moved here to Columbus and I started my new campaign I had exactly zero OD&D players, I had a couple of people who had played either 1st Ed AD&D or 2nd Ed AD&D in the long past and who had moved to 3E as soon as it came out but had not recently played at all. I had some players that had never played any rpg before (one a mid 50's military vet) and I had one MMORPG teen. We did character creation and I started the game like I would for experienced players with slightly more info. I described where they were and that they all knew each other. I threw out several hooks and the 1st Ed AD&D guy sold the group on one and we were off. The military vet was immediately hooked and took to it like a fish to swimming. The MMORPG teen's, only really problem was being too shy to talk and that took him several years to work through, but he would try anything. I run a very fast paced game and once you get people on a roller-coaster most people are not in a hurry to get off. So my answer to your question is that I set the culture from the get-go and I have never had anyone get up and leave.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 11, 2017 15:27:53 GMT -6
Some thoughts: 1. OD&D is perfect for reducing the barrier to entry. Character creation is trivial (5 mins tops) and this makes PCs less precious. When it takes an ENTIRE session to roll up a party, then does anyone really wonder why players fear character death? If I spent hours researching and building a PC, the last thing I want is for it to die entering the first dungeon (or en route for that matter, ha). 2. The concept of an open-world campaign is not foreign to modern gamers. MMOs and games like Skyrim, Witcher, Souls, etc. are lauded for their open elements (no video game is truly open, however). You will find many gamers that prefer the "side quests" to the "main quest." Tell players that TTRPGs are the only way they will ever get a truly open experience. The older the edition, the easier to emulate an open-world it becomes for the DM (ref around these parts). 3. New players just want to start playing. I played with my family for the first time over the holidays using the 5E starter set. They gave me the box for Christmas and wanted to check it out. The adventure is open-world. There were pregens. So it worked out fine. Still too fiddly for newbs (my mom and sister) and I had to handwave most of the mechanics. And 5E is far less dense than all but OD&D, imo. If we play again, I will use the 3llbs so that we can just get started without making it seem so involved like later editions. When we play Catan, for instance, we pull out the box and play. OD&D is perfect for family game night. Try doing that with AD&D or any WotC edition. Good luck with that. 4. ACTUAL PLAY!!! I watch many online streams (almost all 5E) of actual play. It's a mix of modules and homebrew settings. The worst ones by far, according to comments and myself, are the railroads. They just AREN'T FUN for anyone but the DM. The most popular ones all give players narrative control and the DM just runs combat and NPCs and "sets the scene". That's it. Also, the rules they ACTUALLY use I can count on one hand. Roll to hit, roll damage, roll ability checks (no saves in the traditional sense in 5E). You don't need 300 pgs for that. The 3llbs would be perfect for these streams. Many of the best DMs are familiar with older editions and you can tell they still use many of those principles behind-the-screen. When streaming, you don't want play to slow down at all. Especially the live games at cons on stage and in front of an audience. It's REALLY important. I think once the word gets out on OD&D it will continue to gain popularity. WotC is heading in this direction already. 5E sits right between OD&D and Basic for complexity to me. I hope the next version goes even closer to Basic or the 3llbs (my preference, obviously). Or, they could publish a comic-book sized paperback ruleset (24-32 pgs) to use for streams, PbP, cons, etc. and I guarantee it would be a huge hit. The only things that really slow down play from what I've observed are: spells (sometimes need to look up specifics, plus, spells are fun to read), monster special attacks (same, plus monsters are awesome to read as well), and PC special attacks/actions (time-waster). Use OD&D and you have cut any downtime by at least one-third. And probably way more, since once you get rid of PC powers, combat actions become negligible. You can then go back to simple combat systems and emphasize DM fiat (Even in combat! How novel!!) 5. Lastly, I don't think reddit and other forums (even this one) are good examples of average players. If you are willing to go online and edition-war, debate RPG philosophy 101, nitpick rules, etc. then you are talking about an extreme subset. Don't let reddit cloud your view of typical games. Many tables enjoy complexity, most (I'd argue) don't. What you read online is not the real world. Most people have limited time, and just want to get going as fast as possible. What better than OD&D for that?
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jul 11, 2017 16:32:52 GMT -6
Wow, now this is great guys - everyone. Thank you for the great in-depth and thoughtful responses.
There is a board game/wargame night every Wednesday at the FLGS. I am thinking about running an open table using Castle Triskelion with MJ rules for a few weeks to see who likes old style crawling. I still have a ton of prep to do though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 17:26:15 GMT -6
3. New players just want to start playing. Is there anything more true about the game than this! I just hand them pre-gens, usually let them each choose between several, and the supplies and things are already on the sheet. I ask if anyone wants to add any supplies based on remaining cash or if they would like to change weapons or such. Normal and usual answer is no and I'm like, "Great let's play," I give them about a twenty to thirty word statement and we start playing, at this point they know they are responsible for asking questions, if they are not clear on something I say.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 11, 2017 17:34:03 GMT -6
3. New players just want to start playing. Is there anything more true about the game than this! I just hand them pre-gens, usually let them each choose between several, and the supplies and things are already on the sheet. I ask if anyone wants to add any supplies based on remaining cash or if they would like to change weapons or such. Normal and usual answer is no and I'm like, "Great let's play," I give them about a twenty to thirty word statement and we start playing, at this point they know they are responsible for asking questions, if they are not clear on something I say. Even more telling, creating PCs in the 3llbs from scratch is actually FASTER and more intuitive than explaining the 5E pregen jargon included in the starter set. How's that for an endorsement??
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Post by Fearghus on Jul 11, 2017 18:01:00 GMT -6
A couple of weeks ago I started running voice over IP games (VOIP) on discord. I put out a notice for a game, and advertised it as Referee Looking for Players
#System: Dungeons & Dragons (Original D&D, ODD 74)
#Day: Tonight, DD MMM YYYY
#Time: hhpm - hhpm Central Standard (CST)
#Notes:
Come and explore a fantasy world.
Discord voice. Have a mic and headphones.
Game rules are provided: beginners through experts are welcome.
Solo and group excursions available upon request. Within a day had two players interested. One of them brought along two other players. Their background was none, 5e, and BECMI. It worked out well. All four of the original players showed up the following week, and that session also picked up two new players with none/5e experience. It might have been a fluke and next time I run might not get any players, but I just advertise as is. On the flip side, about 3 years ago while playing a pickup game at gen con, I had people quit about 30 minutes into a Basic/expert game. They couldn't stand that there was nothing on their character sheet, and that their ability scores were pointless. These were primarily Pathfinder and 4e players, so I can understand the sentiment. I have played and ref'd both versions and thought they were fun. I simply prefer my little house-ruled version of 3lbb. So if you have a mic and headphones, and a couple spare hours, hit me up.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jul 11, 2017 20:42:09 GMT -6
how do you change the culture at the table to a player-driven, open world style? It depends upon how you design and run your game mostly. That and openly telling the players the game's design intent. Try telling them this: "This is a game first and foremost. The game world exists as a design to be gamed. It's up to you to try and accomplish goals within and follow up on what you wish to learn. There is no predetermined storyline. If you do nothing, the game clock will continue until something random happens. You will learn the methods of the game as you play. Just like the many videogames D&D spawned, it is up to you to play well, score points, and go up in level so you can better face off against more difficult challenges." Then, as a DM, let the players lead the game. Only introduce material when the players stumble into it or a game elements seeks them out. I'd say pointedly leaving the players to lead themselves goes especially for the first few sessions, so campaign starting adventurers have unique needs: - Give the players a relatively easy area to explore, but plenty of early level adventure elements within.
- Give them responsibilities, like defending an outpost or some NPCs under their charge, with plenty of resources/opportunities to help themselves, but leave their success to them.
- Early NPCs should look to the players first to save them or tell them what to do. Competent NPC they might ally with are few and you might place like treasure to be found nearby or through exploring civilization.
- Have the basics of supporting civilization nearby, but not massive. Keep it simple and easy, like the neutral wilderness region and chaotic forces that oppose them.
- Towns should provide opportunities for safety, rest, resupplying, and assistance.
I guess I'm describing B2 here. ------ [ ]
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jul 12, 2017 0:10:23 GMT -6
Whoever is willing to run a game gets to pick the rulebooks. Anyone who complains about the ruleset gets laughed at for their pedantry. This is what it comes down to. Of course, that still leaves open the possibility that you won't get any takers. I have to say I've never been able to get any players of new games to really try old games - well, maybe try on a couple of occasions, but they've never stuck with it. Neophytes, on the other hand, seem to be much easier to reel in - they haven't built up preferences or prejudices yet. Kind of a tangent, but I have managed to garner interest in "The Black Hack" types of games (specifically my interpretation, BLUEHACK™). These are inherently games that people tend to want to expand - although I personally see no need for that - and when they do it's much easier to wean them onto a full old game, whether it be OD&D, Holmes, or B/X.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jul 12, 2017 1:18:35 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 14, 2017 8:05:04 GMT -6
Fantastic thread, Scott!
I agree with pretty much all that has been said here. The simple rules make it an easy entry-level game and players really don't need to know all of the rules. In fact, many times I like it better when they don't. When I DM for newbies I often list spells on a MU's sheet without telling then what the spells do, just to see where their creativity takes them. I find that the "fun factor" in that kind of game is a lot better than when I have rules-experts who constantly try to work the system. And if you can establish a fast-paced flow of action, you'll get them hooked.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jul 14, 2017 15:12:20 GMT -6
When I wrote the spell descriptions for a Mythical Journeys, I intentionally downwrote the descriptions to be as minimal as possible so clever players would fill in the details. It says as much in the little spell section intro. There are only a couple of spells with descriptions as long as 30 words.
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Post by swordofkas on Jul 19, 2017 21:56:57 GMT -6
I started out with 3.5 then moved to 5e. After playing 5e for awhile, I got into Lamentations of the Flame Princess and other OSR games as well as OD&D after that. I think people new to the hobby may be easier to convert, but there are still a lot of people playing 5e with the 3.5 mentality of everything needs to be balanced, have a ton of options, as well as trying to min/max the crap out of their character (tabaxi cleric/barbarian/rogue multiclass *shudders*).
Whereas new players to the hobby sometimes get bogged down with all of the spells and thick rulebooks of the later editions and may take to OD&D and OSR games that are rules-light much better.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 20, 2017 4:19:20 GMT -6
Swordofkas, you bring up some excellent points. When I encounter "modern" gamers, it's not just a matter of folks who want to read the PH, DMG, and MM (and know them better than the DM does) but they also are often really into the min/max. To them, that is part of "playing the game" by beating the rules. I've never quite figured out that mentality, but it's awfully hard to combat. As far as the weird races go, it kills me that the 5E Adventurer's League allows (encourages?) folks to play all of these races that I've never heard of and I feel that players are really just running "elves with different stats" since they don't seem to have racial personalities at all. What is a tabaxi? Is that the fallen angel or the cat dude? Do the players even know or care? Nowadays having an actual human in the party is becoming pretty rare, at least in 5E Adventurer's League play at my game store. The "everything must be balanced" issue is a lot easier. When I'm running an encounter and the party is getting their butts handed to them and they refuse to run away, I simply say something to the effect of: "Time out, guys. Now, you know that we're playing an old school edition, right? And not ever encounter is designed so that you are 'supposed' to beat it, right? Keep this in mind as you play. What do you do?" It doesn't usually take many times of this before they get in the habit of using caution more frequently and running where appropriate. Another gem is to tell them to "forget everything you think you know about D&D because the scale will be 'off' compared to what you think you know." (I've used this advice both ways OD&D-to-5E and 5E-to-OD&D because it really does apply both ways.) The problem there is that players build up a balance scale in their minds about how tough they are and how tough the monsters are, and this scale does change from edition to edition. This means that even if they are in old school "run if it is too tough" mode, their internal scale may tell them that they 'should' be able to beat the thing. So you're right about the issues that have to be overcome. My favorite tables at the game store are actually the ones full of folks who have just started playing roleplaying (even in 5E). They don't know enough about the rules to try to break them. They are just out to have fun and experience a fun story, and that should be what RPGing is all about.
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Post by hamurai on Jul 20, 2017 6:28:28 GMT -6
I have players come up with at least one drive for their characters. Those get as generic as "wants to make a fortune", but some come up with drives which also work as a story hook for me, like the search for a lost relative, revenge or the fact that their character inherited a map and they're trying to find out what the X on the map means. Pretty much every player is able to come up with a drive they can roleplay and which moves them forward in an open world. And if they have a bad day and lack enthusiasm, I throw them a bait which triggers one or several character drives. That works most of the time.
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