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Post by tetramorph on Jun 24, 2017 6:23:59 GMT -6
Hey folks: I've got a campaign world/setting that is our own earth "in the age of wonder." Say, between 500 and 1000 AD. Stuck in a time warp.
Everything is true. It is a huge syncretistic campaign. Some of the syncretism is hard, some is easy.
Easy: Thor = Zeus = Baal / Odin = Uranus. Angels = powers = "gods." Giants = demons = devis. Etc.
Tougher: The "Abrahamic Religions" are to one another more like "denominations" are within Christianity today. The Church of Law, the Temple of Law and the Nation of Law. No major splits within those groups. The "bad guys" are undercover evil clerics, etc.
Difficult: I started the campaign also syncretizing with Tolkien's Middle Earth. All that was true in some midrashic way, but we are currently in the 6th age, the age of the Church of Law.
But I love Anderson. And his model for how to synthesize all this stuff together is ideal to me. In some ways better than Tolkien.
I love Tolkien's elves, but I find Anderson's elves more "realistic" (for my syncretistic setting), more "playable," and just cool.
Could you guys help me out here?
1.) Brainstorm a compare / contrast between Tolkien / Anderson elves
2.) Imagine a crazy way to synthesize them into some history that allows both to be "true," in some creative sense, in a Terrestrial Age of Wonder between about 500 and 1000 AD
Thanks in advance for the conversation and help.
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Post by foxroe on Jun 24, 2017 10:00:29 GMT -6
This is fairly similar to a campaign I'm currently working on. It's very much a fantasy Medieval Europe setting, with the demi-human races being assimilated into human civilization (no "nations of elves") and they are slowly "fading away". The elves live on the periphery of civilization centers in small enclaves. They are very fay and resemble Tolkien elves with the exception of height and long lives (living only about twice as long as humans). Anyway, perhaps you could implement something along these lines: There are two sub-races of elves. The "High" elves consider themselves apart from (and perhaps better than or even against) humanity - these would be your "Tolkien" elves. The "Burgher" elves are more in touch with humanity and have chosen a life of mortality, assimilating themselves into human culture. Or maybe you want the High elves to be small inimical beings, and the human-friendly elves are more "noble" and Tolkien-esque. Regardless of how you paint your elves, I think it would give you some room to develop both types of elves in your campaign. Hope that was useful... it's the end of my day and I'm in "blather" mode.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 17:40:53 GMT -6
Read the Silmarillion. Tolkien's elves used to be a lot more badass and a lot less mopey.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jun 24, 2017 17:56:08 GMT -6
Read the Silmarillion. Tolkien's elves used to be a lot more badass and a lot less mopey. The Silmarillion is fantastic. I love how the The Hobbit, the LotR, and the Silmarillion are all set in Middle Earth, written by the same author, and yet have three very distinct tones and styles. Basically, something for everyone. |
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 24, 2017 20:11:53 GMT -6
Read the Silmarillion. Tolkien's elves used to be a lot more badass and a lot less mopey. I have, gronan, and that may be part of the problem. I may know too much. I reread the Silmarillion every January. I've done it for years now. I've lost count. The elves of the hobbit seem closer to Anderson than those of the Silmarillion. I'll start my own compare and contrast in this thread soon. |
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artikid
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Post by artikid on Jun 26, 2017 4:01:48 GMT -6
I do not subscribe to a "Tolkien Elves vs Anderson Elves" view of things.
I think it would be more appropriate to say "D&D gamers' distorted view of Tolkien Elves vs Andersonian Elves".
Evereybody today thinks of elves in Tolkien as "our good pals in the woods". Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Elves in LOTR and The Hobbit (and the Silmarillion too I'd say, but see below)are beautiful and terrifying, and most of all not friendly to other races in the least.
People are scared of Lorien and her witch queen.
People are scared of Mirkwood (though it's not all the elves' fault) and Thranduil seems to think that dwarves and humans are inferior beings.
Elves of Doriath lived in Menegroth, which is your classic fairy kingdom under the hill, as are Gondolin and Mirkwood. Imladriss also is a classic fairy kingdom separated from the rest of the mortal world.
Elves and Orcs are basically the same race (that's the Seelie Court /Unseelie Court divide if you want)
So, if I was a human, dwarf or hobbit in middle-earth I'd be scared of elves.
Elves in Tolkien have a two main differences with Anderson's IMHO.
First: Tolkien's elves as fairies have more a Celtic root than Anderson's Germanic view.
Second: That Tolkien repurposes -successfully- elves to be a mixture of themes that are dear to his religious worldview and poetic vision:
1 - Angels (first creation of god but not destined to live out its glorious plan fully as humans are)
2 - Old Testament Patriarchs/ Kings of Israel/ Hebraism as predecessor of christianity (elves have different tribes, most of them wandering, they have a promised land, the destruction of Gondolin reminds me very much of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. Elves are the first to "represent" Iluvatar's will on Arda, but it's a Dunedain King -a human with elvish royal blood, make me think of Christ descending from King David- that brings peace on earth)
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 26, 2017 15:11:25 GMT -6
artikid, thanks for chiming in. Notice I titled the thread Tolkien AND Anderson elves. Not "versus." I agree with you. What I really need is a brainstorm for bringing them together in a creative way in terms of background story line / history. Even physical description. Again, I agree with your points in general, nevertheless the description and "feel" of the elves is still different between the two authors (whether or not D&D gamers distort them or not. They folks I play with are pretty well informed about such things). They are certainly described physically differently. Although I like your reminder that elves and orcs are the same "race," so to speak. So that may account for some things. Thanks for the Seelie Court / Unseelie Court connection. Very helpful. Menegroth is certainly a kingdom under a hill. But it does not really remind me of the party under the hill that the elves were trying to trap the hero in in Three Hearts and Three Lions. Brainstorm Here is an idea: It is the sixth age. The age of the church of law. All of the Eldar have departed. The only elves left are the "Dark Elves." Most do not call themselves this and many resent it. Furthermore, this terminology is mainly known to the few elves who remember it, as the lore is so ancient most humans and other races have forgotten it all together. So, among the remaining "dark" elves there are now roughly three kinds of elves, by their own definitions and cultures. "High" elves remember their old masters, the eldar, and seek to imitate them and revere their memory. These live in castles barely detectable to other races but for witch-sight. (So, something like Imric and his castle, but inescapably "dark elf" in actual style.) "Wood" elves have no such aspirations or desires but still Iive together in tribes and clans. They dwell on flets in the woods rendered magically invisible. (These are like the roaming elves in Anderson.) Dark elves dwell alone, wandering in the woods, holing up in trees for years. They come together occasionally for high festivals and matings. They are indistinguishable from orcs but for their beauty and their hatred of actual orcs. (This is the scary, I don't want to meet them in the night kind of elf.) I'm hoping something like the above can give me Anderson's age-of-wonder Europe combined with Tolkien's very ancient ages and cosmology.
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artikid
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Post by artikid on Jun 27, 2017 1:23:06 GMT -6
Hi tetramorph,
I think your write-up gives off more a Tolkienian vibe than an Andersonian one. At least to me.
Departing elves and a taxonomy of elvish subraces are very much a Tolkienian thing IMHO.
I don't have any specific advice on how to mix the two views, I think it's a very hard thing to do: in the end Tolkien's vision kind of "subverted" elves, while Anderson used them with less manipulation. So trying to juxtapose the two visions will always have the Tolkien thing stick out IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 8:04:14 GMT -6
Easy: Thor = Zeus = Baal / Odin = Uranus. & Giants = demons = devils. Etc. Just to be clear these are all being classed as the Evil villains, is that right? Due to the whole infant sacrifice thing of Baal. |
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artikid
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Post by artikid on Jun 27, 2017 10:08:08 GMT -6
By the way
While Romans interpreted Thor as an aspect of Zeus, Odin was seen as an aspect of Hermes.
Uranus would probably have been connected to Ymir I think.
And this ties in again to elves and dwarves. Germans thought that elves and dwarves weren't created like humans. Instead these races first developed as maggots in Ymir's corpse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 11:18:04 GMT -6
Uranus is connected to Ymir, hurr hurr hurr...
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Post by artikid on Jun 27, 2017 11:30:56 GMT -6
Uranus is connected to Ymir, hurr hurr hurr... Not sure about that,just my conjecture, but I'm pretty sure Romans thought Odin=Hermes. To this day Wednesday in italian is Mercoledì (day of Mercury) |
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Post by Falconer on Jun 27, 2017 13:14:13 GMT -6
Here’s how I handle gods in the general D&D / The Broken Sword milieu. OD&D & Sup. I state that Elves have clerics among their own kind, i.e., of religions other than the implied Judeo-Christianity followed by humans. But Sup. IV implies that all its real-world (pagan) human pantheons are now available to human PCs. However, the Cleric class in play is still fundamentally Judeo-Christian (or demonic, if you use the reverse abilities). Not desiring to reimagine the whole game, I go through the pantheons that I want to use (from the Sup. IV and DDG books), and mark each god or each pantheon as belonging to one of the following categories:
1. The deity is now revered as a saint of God; veneration of him is ultimately rendered to God; this is the religion of Good Human Clerics. Eg., Brigit
2. The deity is now reviled as a demon or devil; reverence to him is an act of rebellion from God; this is the religion of Evil Clerics of any race. Eg., Marduk
3. A rural deity that is not considered demonic because its worship is relatively benign and has to do with nature; this is the religion of Neutral Human Druids. Eg., Silvanus
4. A deity whose worship has died out among humans but is still considered somehow not inappropriate for nonhumans to worship; this is the religion of Nonevil Nonhuman Clerics. Eg., Frey (Elves), Goibhnie (Dwarves)
By the way, the Clerics of this fourth category are members of classes which have not been written up as such for the D&D game; therefore, they are not PCs, and have to be written up (or winged) with ad hoc abilities when encountered in their enclaves.
(N.B., I use 5-point alignment; if using 3-point alignment, substitute Law and Chaos for Good and Evil, above.)
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 28, 2017 12:49:50 GMT -6
Here’s how I handle gods in the general D&D / The Broken Sword milieu. OD&D & Sup. I state that Elves have clerics among their own kind, i.e., of religions other than the implied Judeo-Christianity followed by humans. But Sup. IV implies that all its real-world (pagan) human pantheons are now available to human PCs. However, the Cleric class in play is still fundamentally Judeo-Christian (or demonic, if you use the reverse abilities). Not desiring to reimagine the whole game, I go through the pantheons that I want to use (from the Sup. IV and DDG books), and mark each god or each pantheon as belonging to one of the following categories: 1. The deity is now revered as a saint of God; veneration of him is ultimately rendered to God; this is the religion of Good Human Clerics. Eg., Brigit 2. The deity is now reviled as a demon or devil; reverence to him is an act of rebellion from God; this is the religion of Evil Clerics of any race. Eg., Marduk 3. A rural deity that is not considered demonic because its worship is relatively benign and has to do with nature; this is the religion of Neutral Human Druids. Eg., Silvanus 4. A deity whose worship has died out among humans but is still considered somehow not inappropriate for nonhumans to worship; this is the religion of Nonevil Nonhuman Clerics. Eg., Frey (Elves), Goibhnie (Dwarves) By the way, the Clerics of this fourth category are members of classes which have not been written up as such for the D&D game; therefore, they are not PCs, and have to be written up (or winged) with ad hoc abilities when encountered in their enclaves. (N.B., I use 5-point alignment; if using 3-point alignment, substitute Law and Chaos for Good and Evil, above.) The above is just awesome, Falconer . Thanks so much. I'm LBB + house rules only. I don't dip into the supplements much. I certainly run the cleric as a crusader like a templar. Yes, and evil demonic ones as kind of crusaders for evil. I have even renamed level titles to sound more like a military monastic order, taking the other names and using then for leftover neutral pagan clergy. So I also have clergy that are separate from crusaders. Some can work wonders, pagan ones may be powerful sorcerers in their own right, but I wing them, mixing spells from both lists and making up some special ones as per the god they worship and to throw off the players! I also do not have clerics (as Church of Law crusaders) assigned to gods but to patron saints. Evil clerics have a patron god of darkness, death, night, chaos, etc. But wherever the various mythos of the ancient world can overlap (where even the ancients saw overlap) I just go with that. I have fay creatures have no religion per se but rather a kind of direct relationship to the ethereal beings and powers that they "harmonize" with. And I use a 3-point alignment system. Thanks for helping me think about all these things. Any thoughts on the elf issue? I would love your thoughts on that. @theperilousdreamer , I read your worry there. The ancient levantine pantheon is really weird. But as far as I am aware, child sacrifice was to El Elyon, Baal's father, not to Baal himself. This corresponds to the Saturn / Uranus child sacrifice of ancient Greek and Carthaginian civilizations. Remember, he ate his own kids, right? Baal / Zeus / Thor are all storm gods with lightning bolts and stuff. The pagan gods are vaguely lawful but also kind of neutral now that the "white Christ" (as Anderson calls him) or "the King of Heaven" (as I call him IMC) has set up rulership in the cosmic spheres. artikid, thanks for the reminder about the Odin / Mercury and Odin's Day (Wednesday) / Miercoles connection. That is weird, isn't it? I wish I knew the Iranian / Indian mythos better. Which is the fundamental and which is the deviation, I wonder? In the Greek mythos, Mercury is a lesser god to Zeus. Whereas, in the Germanic mythos, Mercury is the father of Zeus! Wierd. |
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Post by Falconer on Jun 28, 2017 13:49:29 GMT -6
I’m not really clear on what the issue is. As others have pointed out, in Tolkien’s works outside the LR, the portrayal of elves is not all that much at odds with Anderson’s. Especially in the context of a game, how differently is a player really going to play a “The Hobbit elf” compared to “Broken Sword elf”? I think you need to get away from the idea that the Middle-earth stories happened ages and ages in the prehistoric past and just think of it as a mythological setting that blends into history circa the 5th century. First The Hobbit happened and then The Broken Sword happened, basically, if that works for you. After all, Tolkien features dwarves from the Dvergatal, misty mountains from the Skirnismal, and a berserker from Hrólfs saga kraka. Frey = Yngvi = Ingwë; Odin = Manwë; Thor = Tulkas…
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jun 28, 2017 14:07:27 GMT -6
Uranus is connected to Ymir, hurr hurr hurr... Not sure about that,just my conjecture, but I'm pretty sure Romans thought Odin=Hermes. To this day Wednesday in italian is Mercoledì (day of Mercury) Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear... |
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artikid
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Post by artikid on Jun 28, 2017 14:57:04 GMT -6
Not sure about that,just my conjecture, but I'm pretty sure Romans thought Odin=Hermes. To this day Wednesday in italian is Mercoledì (day of Mercury) Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear... It's not just a matter of days' names, Roman historians themselves made the connection. The comparison is made in the Germania by Tacitus (I checked). On the Uranus/Ymir connection (and more) I'll make a post tomorrow, but that's 100% my idea. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jun 28, 2017 16:15:41 GMT -6
Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear... It's not just a matter of days' names, Roman historians themselves made the connection. The comparison is made in the Germania by Tacitus (I checked). On the Uranus/Ymir connection (and more) I'll make a post tomorrow, but that's 100% my idea. I think Gronan was making a joke. Uranus... ahem.  In English, Uranus has a few meanings. Not sure about Italian. Nevertheless, I look forward to your post. I didn't mean to downplay your hypothesis at all, as I know nothing about the various etymologies being discussed. If Gronan's comment wasn't a joke.. well then.. I am disappointed!!  Sidenote: Your art is really great. You are very talented. Everyone should check out the link in artikid's signature. |
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artikid
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Post by artikid on Jun 29, 2017 4:03:44 GMT -6
I think Gronan was making a joke. Uranus... ahem. In English, Uranus has a few meanings. Not sure about Italian. Nevertheless, I look forward to your post. I didn't mean to downplay your hypothesis at all, as I know nothing about the various etymologies being discussed. If Gronan's comment wasn't a joke.. well then.. I am disappointed!! Blast me for being a pompous, self-important ass! I hadn't realized that, well I guess the joke's one me ;P Sidenote: Your art is really great. You are very talented. Everyone should check out the link in artikid's signature. Thank you very much, I try to do my best Now, regarding the Uranus/Ymir thing. First things first: I'm not a lit graduate nor an anthropologist nor a historian, just a guy that likes mythology and has read a few books and connected some dots in his mind. The only kind of studies I made on this stuff is when I studied humanities in high school (italian high school has a humanities curricula that you can chose and that's all about greek, latin, philosophy and greek/latin lit). So, caveats out of the way, indo-european cultures, languages and religions are a huge stirring brew of recurring ideas and themes that tribes west of India and east of Portugal have mixed and matched since about 4000 BC. So many characters and themes keep coming up in new but familiar combinations in places that are thousands of miles and hundreds of years apart. To make a few extreme examples Sanskrit and ancient greek are considered very similar languages, and there are deities in India that are very similar to the Dioskouroi Castor and Pollux. The antinomy of gods and anti-gods exists in Scandinavia as well in Greece and in India... and in the Amber novels But things cannot always be 100% superimposed one on the other. We usually think of Latins "using" Greek religion, but that's not exactly true: Saturn and Cronos are more different that one might think, for example and lots of latin deities had, originally at least, more in common with the Etruscans than with the Greek. The tribes that had settled Greece by the beginning of the iron age originally looked a lot more barbaric than we usually think of when we think of Greece (we usually think of 5th century BC classic Greeks). Google "bronze age greeks" and be surprised. Keep in mind also that when we think of greek or norse creation myth, we usually think of the work of one author that gave us a standardized and sometimes partial version of a much older -and wider- oral tradition. Such is the case of Hesiod and Snorri. Let's come to Uranus and Ymir. First living being of the universe? Check Spanning a void? Check: Tartarus/Ginnungagap. Hermaphroditic? Kinda. Uranus gets castrated so we could say he becomes a member of the third-sex, Ymir's name is considered to have fully hermaphroditic implications Generate a female deity by itself? Uranus's blood falling from the sky after it gets castrated creates Venus, Ymir somehow is the forefather or generator of Bestla (Odin's mother). By this event the above point about Uranus/Ymir being hermaphroditic is reinforced. Generates monsters from his body? Check (both generate many-limbed monstrous giants) Generate a progeny of gigantic/divine beings? Check (Titans/Giants) Its progeny splits in two antithetical families of divine beings? Check (Titans vs. Olympians, Aesirs vs. Giants) Gets assaulted and/or killed by its progeny? Check (Cronus castrates Uranus to become Lord of the Universe, it is subsequently incarcerated in Tartarus/ Odin, Vili and Ve kill Ymir and build the Universe using its body as building materials to fill the void Ginnungagap). I think one could delve deeper and find even more similarities here and there. I'm pretty sure one can find similarities to the Indian deities Brahma, Purusa and Prajapati as well. BTW if you check Wikipedia you'll also discover that historians and anthropologists seem to disagree with Tacitus, Odin is considered to have some Varuna-like traits. Varuna is an indian deity connected to Saturn (kinda like Cronus)... and Uranus Cheers L |
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 29, 2017 7:40:39 GMT -6
Here’s how I handle gods in the general D&D / The Broken Sword milieu. OD&D & Sup. I state that Elves have clerics among their own kind, i.e., of religions other than the implied Judeo-Christianity followed by humans. But Sup. IV implies that all its real-world (pagan) human pantheons are now available to human PCs. However, the Cleric class in play is still fundamentally Judeo-Christian (or demonic, if you use the reverse abilities). I consider lawful/good clerics to be crypto-Christians, and chaotic/evil clerics to be crypto-devil-worshipers. Demi-human clerics I consider to be worshipers of the Creator (i. e., the same deity worshiped by the lawful/good clerics, but the demi-humans have a lot less information/details about the deity). The entities in Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes I consider to be potential opponents for high-level PCs, not dissimilar to the Chromatic Dragon, Demogorgon, and Orcus. Armor class, hit points, and all the rest. If you can't kill an OD&D god, then what's he for? |
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 30, 2017 11:07:14 GMT -6
Here is what I love. A description from the Broken Sword of Imric, and, as far as I'm concerned, it could work for Tolkien's (dark) elves just as well:
And here is a description of his voice, and apparently, these elves have facial hair:
And his movement as he ran down the castle stairs:
Thanks for all the help and encouragement folks.
I'll let you know when I have hammered out more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 17:09:37 GMT -6
I think Gronan was making a joke. Uranus... ahem. In English, Uranus has a few meanings. Not sure about Italian. Nevertheless, I look forward to your post. I didn't mean to downplay your hypothesis at all, as I know nothing about the various etymologies being discussed. If Gronan's comment wasn't a joke.. well then.. I am disappointed!! Blast me for being a pompous, self-important ass! I hadn't realized that, well I guess the joke's one me ;P In case of doubt, assume a dumb poop hole joke or dumb wiener joke as default. You will seldom be wrong. |
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 22, 2017 15:19:10 GMT -6
Have any of you ever implemented in-game that iron burns fell and fay?
If so, how?
Seems awful hard to remember that elves are always going to receive double damage from iron and steel and that they cannot use iron or steel weapons or armor.
But it also seems cool.
Also, since they cannot hear the name of God or Christ pronounced, seems like they would have to rely on MU healing potions for healing. In fact, a party with a cleric and an elf should be tough to run, as every clerical spell would invoke God and or Christ. (Note: I run clerics as crusaders in a fictional version of our own world much like the Broken Sword and Three Hearts and Three Lions blended together. I don't do the whole "choose your own crazy god" thing.)
Forget the silly tension between elves and dwarves! The real tension is between fay and the men of the church of law!
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Post by Porphyre on Jul 23, 2017 8:21:45 GMT -6
Well, there still is Cirdan's case in tolkienian lore ... |
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Post by Porphyre on Jul 23, 2017 8:36:12 GMT -6
Have any of you ever implemented in-game that iron burns fell and fay? If so, how? Seems awful hard to remember that elves are always going to receive double damage from iron and steel and that they cannot use iron or steel weapons or armor. You can interpret the "may use magic armor and still act as Magic-Users" sentence in M&M as "can only use magic armor" (because I suppose that magically imbued armor doesn't count as iron anymore, or maybe some other metal like mithril or orychalcum is used). (Also : an elf can't use iron spikes to wedge a door open) |
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Post by Porphyre on Jul 23, 2017 8:40:30 GMT -6
Also, since they cannot hear the name of God or Christ pronounced, seems like they would have to rely on MU healing potions for healing. In fact, a party with a cleric and an elf should be tough to run, as every clerical spell would invoke God and or Christ. (Note: I run clerics as crusaders in a fictional version of our own world much like the Broken Sword and Three Hearts and Three Lions blended together. I don't do the whole "choose your own crazy god" thing.) Forget the silly tension between elves and dwarves! The real tension is between fay and the men of the church of law! And that's why -according to Suppl1: Greyhawk- elves need their own cleric NPCs. |
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 24, 2017 16:15:42 GMT -6
And that's why -according to Suppl1: Greyhawk- elves need their own cleric NPCs. I get the logic of that from a game-ist POV. But IMC Fay and fell do not have "religion." Religion is a human thing, expressing a human relationship with the "gods." Fay and fell are almost kinds of Demi-gods / incarnate demons in themselves. So they have a kind of direct relationship with the powers. I think I'm going to just allow my elves to have the healing-type spells of clerics also available to them (cure light, cure heavy, cure disease, neutralize poison). (But not raise dead. That is also a human thing. Human beings' souls live on on. Elves just die, as per Anderson.) Thanks for the interaction. And, yes, Cirdan does have a beard! Huzzah! |
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In English, Uranus has a few meanings. Not sure about Italian.
