The Current Climate of OSR Relations

[Deleted]

Very interesting discussion, gentlemen! Again, like with many debates on the topic, I'm not sure if we're talking a label, a movement, a label-become-movement, or a movement-become-label. Personally, I appreciate the way you're all conducting this, though: It's an interesting exchange.

What I'm not quite clear about yet is whether anyone sees a need for action, and if so, where that actiomn is supposed to lead us: The OSR market, in general, seems to be working. If it doesn't develop and evolve as some would like, then that's most likely because a silent majority of gamers has different demands than the pundits. In my book, that's quite alright; once more, it seems to prove that "the revolution won't televised"... Or blogged, for that matter.

Apr 30, 2017 9:29:08 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

On top of this, since most of the products sold are not for D&D/AD&D (as those players have little need for rulebooks and campaign settings), you end up with the situation where "established critics" are giving each other awards for OSR products that aren't even usable by D&D fans.

Just a small clarification: I'm not sure if this was in response to a comment I made earlier - but if it was, this would be precisely what I didn't mean. In my opinion, the problem is precisely that much of the OSR seems to happen in some sort of "angry bubble", where dissenting opinions are portrayed as somehow dishonest when they're usually anything but that. I get that there are well some childish, easy-to-impress, or simply untruthful indie reviewers, but stuff like the Ennies, or the reviews at RPG.net, they are mostly a valid measure for the greater public's views. Just because I, too, don't always agree with these views doesn't mean they are fabricated, or genuinely wrong or false.

[robertsconley]

May 3, 2017 16:52:29 GMT -6 @rafael said:

What I'm not quite clear about yet is whether anyone sees a need for action, and if so, where that action is supposed to lead us:

The fact that open content and the use of digital technology is part of OSR enables action to be taken. It doesn't mandate anything in particular in of itself. However individual and groups within the OSR may advocate specific courses of actions to taken or not taken. But that what they choose to do with the freedom afforded by the use of open content and digital technology.

You are free to do or not do whatever you are interested in within the time and resources you have available. The importance of digital technology is that it enables one hobbyist to do quite a bit with the time he has for this hobby.

The only limitation on all this is that the OSR it is centered on people interested in classic editions of D&D, and anything related they find interesting like other older RPGs. But this is not UNIQUE to the OSR other tabletop RPG communities enjoy their own set of open content and can use digital technology to realize their projects. Communities like Runequest, and Fate.

May 3, 2017 16:52:29 GMT -6 @rafael said:

I'm not sure if we're talking a label, a movement, a label-become-movement, or a movement-become-label.

The OSR is a side effect of what happens you mix a popular older game, open content and digital technology. Rather than continually typing in various post "the group of people playing, promoting, and publishing for classic editions of D&D, related RPG, and whatever else they find interesting" People started using shorthand abbreviations the one that won out was OSR. Even then there not 100% agreement what the R stands for. Personally I used Renaissance but there is a handful of other choices like Revolution or Revival that is in wide use.

The closest the OSR had anything close "official" was a short lived OSR store front on Lulu. But even then all that did was just one more site that popularized the term. When I first heard it back in 2008 or 2009 it just sounded right so I started using it myself in lieu of typing "the group of ....."

What I tell people when the "definition" of the OSR comes up is to remember that regardless of everything else that there is a group of hobbyist who play, promote, and publish for classic D&D. Anything beyond that you have to qualify it with who are you talking about.

For example it is accurate to say that the OD&D discussion forum is a friendly place to discuss the original edition of Dungeons & Dragon along with a few other topics related to that.

It is NOT accurate to say that the OSR is a friendly place to discuss the original edition of Dungeons & Dragons. It not hostile to the discussion of OD&D either.

For some people this bothers them that you can't say this as a whole about the OSR. I just shrug and reply "that how people are". Some are open and some are not. Some are argumentative some happily engage in anything about the hobby. It just all kinds of folks playing D&D.

But it not all doom and gloom either, because the same forces that allow people to be argumentative allow places like this to exist.

Like I said in my OP, it is a mess but a glorious mess.

Hope this sheds some insight into the answers to your questions.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2017 10:03:02 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Rather than continually typing in various post "the group of people playing, promoting, and publishing for classic editions of D&D, related RPG, and whatever else they find interesting" People started using shorthand abbreviations the one that won out was OSR. Even then there not 100% agreement what the R stands for. Personally I used Renaissance but there is a handful of other choices like Revolution or Revival that is in wide use.

I think Old School Resistance sounds pretty cool!

[The Wanderer]

Old School Rebellion

[Deleted]

Sorry, I was away for a few days - thank you for your elaborate answer, Rob. I think I can see your point, if, maybe, my perception - as an outsider, is still somewhat different. - I like that you mention other rpg communities, as well, though: Because, from what I observe, especially the Runequest renaissance seems remarkably drama-free, compared to what we have with the OSR.

Now, what people might not even realize is that you are one of the perhaps most accomplished oldschool writers - and have yet always remained an independent. My question to you would be, where do you see things going? Say, in five years?

[robertsconley]

May 10, 2017 4:50:46 GMT -6 @rafael said:

Now, what people might not even realize is that you are one of the perhaps most accomplished oldschool writers - and have yet always remained an independent. My question to you would be, where do you see things going? Say, in five years?

Thanks for the compliment although there are others more productive than I am in producing great material for classic D&D and similar games.

As for predictions, the last time I tried I got it totally wrong. Thought the next big thing for the OSR around 2011-2012 would have been planetary romances building on the inspiration of Barsoom and similar works. The projects took longer to come to fruition.

But a prediction ye shall receive. I think in the next five years virtual tabletop will become a bigger part of the hobby including classic D&D. It will bring a enough new hobbyists to cause some friction with established communities but we will also see some interesting new ideas done with older editions.

I also see jumping on-line to game with virtual tabletop to less of a novelty and people will start to switch freely as their circumstances dictate. Mobile apps for virtual tabletop will improve and within five year anybody can join a tabletop sessions from anywhere on the planet where there is Internet connectivity. The thing that will take long to develop effectively is a virtual presence where a on-line person can participate in a face to face game.

Technology wise most of this is in place already what be different is the scope.

And to be clear this is not some form of World of Warcraft, Dragon Age, or any other type of CRPG. This is playing tabletop rpgs 'as is' except you use a shared whiteboard, voice/chat, and some utilities (dice-roller) to have everybody sit around a virtual table.

Wizards and others have tried to come up with virtual tabletop that are more like computer games but Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds pretty much beat the shirt out of the competition and are the present top dogs in the VTT world. Battlegrounds and other competitors pretty much stick to the whiteboard model.

All of this impacts RPGs like OD&D favorably as it massively increases the opportunities for people to play campaigns and to find fellow hobbyists. The only major issues is different time zones. And it doesn't supplant face to face gaming but rather works alongside it. I can't stress this enough just how easy it is to switch between using a VTT and meeting with the same people to continue the campaign face to face.

So you could use a VTT for a face to face group one or twice a year when for some reason somebody has to be elsewhere and still can game. Or you can keep switching back and forth, or you can use it all the time and meet face to face once or twice a year. This will be part of a larger trend of normalizing the use of the Internet into our regular lives. The novelty of the Internet is fading in favor of the actual useful things one can use it for. Many are finding time to do things face to face rather than spending all their time on-line. One of the reasons that there is a Board game golden age happening right now.

Creatively I think we will start seeing the rate of Black Swans increasing. Black Swan is a metaphor for a unexpected event that has a major consequence. In our case it will be something made with classic D&D that makes most of us go "Wow that neat". And we will want to play it or use it in our campaigns. This is due to the increased opportunities afforded by the use of open content and digital technology.

I suspect some of these Black Swans will have to do with getting a campaign started faster and getting more done with limited playing time. Another reason we are in a board game golden age is that under the Euro-game label game designers are mastering the use of mechanics that are easy to use but have a lot of depth in them. So you can play a satisfying game within a hour or two. This lesson will be absorbed by the industry and hobby and things will be found that benefits not only newer games but classic editions as well.

Of course I have to say I am a bit biased in regards to the last paragraph because that where my own work is focused on at the moment. Getting people up with classic D&D campaign faster and helping them do more within the time they have.

[robertsconley]

May 10, 2017 4:50:46 GMT -6 @rafael said:

Sorry, I was away for a few days - thank you for your elaborate answer, Rob. I think I can see your point, if, maybe, my perception - as an outsider, is still somewhat different. - I like that you mention other rpg communities, as well, though: Because, from what I observe, especially the Runequest renaissance seems remarkably drama-free, compared to what we have with the OSR.

Well there was the whole Design Mechanism/Chaosium thing but yes by and large the Runequest has been free of the drama that afflicts the OSR and classic D&D hobby.

[Vile Traveller]

Our regular group already includes people at the table and floating tablet heads in different time zones. The future is now.

[Deleted]

Thanks, Rob! While I object to your usage of the term "Black Swan" , I think your observations about the general direction of the hobby match mine:

Technical progress is already changing the game, if through new forms of gaming developed for the internet, and for long-distance groups. And, of course, the brand, D&D. might not be as dead as it seems:


I think those "rare events" that you mention might be mainly two:

1. The DMsG will sooner or later include all, or most OOP-settings; this would be a very smart move, because it could bring many wayward fans "home", and keep the development of the settings under a certain form of in-house review.

2. The D&D movie will be treated seriously by Hollywood, this time; if it becomes as much as a moderate success, it will give WotC a new raison d'etre. Also, if it is based on Dragonlance, as the rumors say, and we're looking towards a franchise, the sky could be the limit.


Personally, I think the biggest game-changers (tee-hee) will be first the treatment of fantasy post-"Game of Thrones"; Hollywood seems to tend towards surreal fantasy (Legion, The Dark Tower, Mortal Engines), lately. If they bring Tolkien-ish fantasy back, any time soon, then that will certainly also affect the hobby.

As to game mechanics, I completely agree: I think we will see a new tendency towards faster games. The market seems ready, plain and simple. How that will look, I have absolutely no idea, though.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2017 19:32:24 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Our regular group already includes people at the table and floating tablet heads in different time zones. The future is now.

I too, starred as a yelling and cursing webcam pinned to an ironing board for two years of a (German) Midgard campaign. Good times. ...I played a druid.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2017 23:58:23 GMT -6 @rafael said:

May 10, 2017 19:32:24 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Our regular group already includes people at the table and floating tablet heads in different time zones. The future is now.

I too, starred as a yelling and cursing webcam pinned to an ironing board for two years of a (German) Midgard campaign. Good times. ...I played a druid.

Would love to see a thread on Midgard, in a new thread, here or elsewhere.

[Deleted]

Hehe, thanks, man. The thing is, Midgard is very much like the lovechild of AD&D and Rolemaster - and takes the worst of both. A very convoluted ruleset - that you need to take like a "gardener", and not "by the book". I always enjoyed it, because of the reasons that you can't measure - the group was fun, and we had a great time. Otherwise, though, I didn't find it very remarkable: Alba, the main setting, is basically the Midkemia's Duchy of the Isles plus a little bit of Norwold. - MERP, not D&D, then became my RPG love of my teenage years, and is the reason I'm still involved with the hobby, I guess.

Midgard, BTW, is where much of my love of the old Midkemia RPG material stems from - many newer Midgard books featured, weirdly enough, stuff from Midkemia Press, but translated into German, and ported to the Midgard game's setting. Back in the day, I read the credits, asked my game store clerk for the meaning, and then, one day, came home with a bunch of very nerdy fantasy novels...

[Deleted]

May 11, 2017 9:52:09 GMT -6 @rafael said:

Hehe, thanks, man. The thing is, Midgard is very much like the lovechild of AD&D and Rolemaster - and takes the worst of both. A very convoluted ruleset - that you need to take like a "gardener", and not "by the book". I always enjoyed it, because of the reasons that you can't measure - the group was fun, and we had a great time. Otherwise, though, I didn't find it very remarkable: Alba, the main setting, is basically the Midkemia's Duchy of the Isles plus a little bit of Norwold. - MERP, not D&D, then became my RPG love of my teenage years, and is the reason I'm still involved with the hobby, I guess.

Midgard, BTW, is where much of my love of the old Midkemia RPG material stems from - many newer Midgard books featured, weirdly enough, stuff from Midkemia Press, but translated into German, and ported to the Midgard game's setting. Back in the day, I read the credits, asked my game store clerk for the meaning, and then, one day, came home with a bunch of very nerdy fantasy novels...

From what I have heard of Midgard in England and Midgard II (and its children) in the US, it sounds like the English versions (which as far as I as I can tell is not in print and may never have actually had a printing may not be much like the game you played at all. Sounds like a really cool time to be you.

[Deleted]

Hehe, thanks, man!

From what I understand, the Midgard tabletop games were the 1960s and 1970s predecessors for the later RPG that was released in 1981.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midgard_(role-playing_game)


It's by no means a bad game, but the setting was pretty bland, and the scenarios I recall to be very D&D-ish, but with the slow progress, and the low-fi design of MERP. - So, there was never much to do for us, and when I started running D&D (Ravenloft!) with more seriousness, that pretty much became the next step. I played in a Midgard campaign until 2011, but afterwards, all players moved on to more complex worlds and systems.


I maybe wouldn't even mind to go back for a game, or two, some day - but I have other stuff on my RPG bucket list, too...

[Deleted]

May 10, 2017 14:22:18 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Another reason we are in a board game golden age is that under the Euro-game label game designers are mastering the use of mechanics that are easy to use but have a lot of depth in them. So you can play a satisfying game within a hour or two. This lesson will be absorbed by the industry and hobby and things will be found that benefits not only newer games but classic editions as well.

I've been talking about this for awhile now. Boardgames made a huge comeback in the 90s by focusing on what boardgames do best (i.e. not complex simulations) and trying to make games that get to the point rather quickly. A "long" boardgame today is 2-3 hours which is just the setup time for games I played in the 80s (I'm exaggerating but not by much).

May 10, 2017 14:22:18 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

I suspect some of these Black Swans will have to do with getting a campaign started faster and getting more done with limited playing time.

I've noticed that many modern RPG designers are making their game less and less capable of pickup style games; using elaborate character generation and Session Zero requirements that makes it more difficult for players to drop in and out. These types of games are less capable of getting up and running quickly (unless you count character generation as play time) and, more importantly, are prone to issues if players drop out or join. There needs to be a solution to the prep problem that isn't just "improvise" or "let the players make it up for you".

I'm a bit skeptical about virtual tabletops and such because CRPGs are advancing so fast that you might as well just play one of those (you can create your own quests in Fallout/Skyrim right now). I'd rather see RPG move away from complex tactical map-and-miniature based rules and focus one what RPGs do best.