The Current Climate of OSR Relations

[Gynsburghe]

I don't know how many of you wander out into the blogosphere, especially beyond OD&D related stuff - but, IMHO, things are getting kind of ugly in several corners. I went down a rabbit hole yesterday whilst I was in a bit of a funk since reading a bunch of OSR stuff usually gives my blues the boot...

Nope. Not yesterday.

I'm not the groggiest grognard in all of Groglandia, but I'm a bit disturbed, perturbed and concerned about the growing friction between differing ends of the Old School Renaissance. I truly value how neutral ODD74 is, I don't think I've ever really expressed that. No one should ever feel that what they like is being slandered to the point of ridiculous name calling and wild accusations, especially in a group of gamers so niche. If you're out and about in the world of the OSR, you might know the poopstorm I'm referring to... it's not just in one place.

I have seen this in a lot of small communities of similar interests or practices - from music to religion and beyond. It's been in gaming, and honestly in the OSR, from nearly the beginning. I remember it when I was a kid... but it was never so...

It's becoming a lot nastier, with some of our own folks writing diatribes that remind me of EnWorld or RPGnet, and the reasons I began to ignore those resources.

I confess that gaming is a bit of an escape for me, like my other hobby of home haunting. Even when we get sanctimonious, for the most part it never really went so far into personal attacks. Some of it reeks of jealousy, some of it is puritanical, some of it is myopic or worse. It's not only finding tolerance for its intolerance, it is making a nasty little line in the sand...

I'm asking everyone, with my deepest concern, to keep this place away from it. I am genuine in my love for older editions and I want to see folks doing that DIY OSR stuff for many years to come, however they want to do it. I wish every single author the best in their pursuits, even if they aren't for me.

There's enough hate in real life, let's try and keep the OSR from erupting into just another expression of division and self righteousness.

[18 Spears]

I like teh way you'uns think

[bestialwarlust]

Unfortunately elitism exists in many different hobbies,religions, politics, etc..

ODD74 is one of the few gaming boards I frequent because that crap really doesn't exist here.

[foxroe]

Apr 18, 2017 16:49:54 GMT -6 Gynsburghe said:

I don't know how many of you wander out into the blogosphere, especially beyond OD&D related stuff - but, IMHO, things are getting kind of ugly in several corners. I went down a rabbit hole yesterday whilst I was in a bit of a funk since reading a bunch of OSR stuff usually gives my blues the boot...

Nope. Not yesterday.

I'm not the groggiest grognard in all of Groglandia, but I'm a bit disturbed, perturbed and concerned about the growing friction between differing ends of the Old School Renaissance. I truly value how neutral ODD74 is, I don't think I've ever really expressed that. No one should ever feel that what they like is being slandered to the point of ridiculous name calling and wild accusations, especially in a group of gamers so niche. If you're out and about in the world of the OSR, you might know the poopstorm I'm referring to... it's not just in one place.

I have seen this in a lot of small communities of similar interests or practices - from music to religion and beyond. It's been in gaming, and honestly in the OSR, from nearly the beginning. I remember it when I was a kid... but it was never so...

It's becoming a lot nastier, with some of our own folks writing diatribes that remind me of EnWorld or RPGnet, and the reasons I began to ignore those resources.

I confess that gaming is a bit of an escape for me, like my other hobby of home haunting. Even when we get sanctimonious, for the most part it never really went so far into personal attacks. Some of it reeks of jealousy, some of it is puritanical, some of it is myopic or worse. It's not only finding tolerance for its intolerance, it is making a nasty little line in the sand...

I'm asking everyone, with my deepest concern, to keep this place away from it. I am genuine in my love for older editions and I want to see folks doing that DIY OSR stuff for many years to come, however they want to do it. I wish every single author the best in their pursuits, even if they aren't for me.

There's enough hate in real life, let's try and keep the OSR from erupting into just another expression of division and self righteousness.

Could not have said it better myself. Amen, brother.

[Deleted]

I have not had much reading time for the past 5 months or so and my time online has been much limited and mainly to keeping an eye on my own forum and I stop in here now and then. I don't really visit other forums much and when I look at blogs these days I am usually doing a google search on a specific topic, so I am not up on what you are talking about ( and no I am not asking for any links in this thread).

Well I do visit The Comeback Inn now and then to see what havard is up to.

[archersix]

We still get to make fun of 4th Edition, right??

But seriously, I appreciate the civility of this joint too.

[Deleted]

Yeah, Gynsburghe is right, it appears things are heating up again - as they usually do during spring season, when people take vacation time, and let their minds wander to strange places.

[Mod hat on:] For the sake of civility, and for the sake of not bringing any of those discussions here - please only, if you have to, name GOOD and positive examples of people to contribute to the hobby, not the many bad ones. [/Mod hat off.]


- Because, yeah, the issue is one that merits to be addressed; first, because it's nice to see that you are reaffirming that you don't support this kind of crap, and second, to remind people that if they condone this kind of behavior, they become enablers.



As I personally see things, it's the usual problem of a community like ours, that defines through consumption of a certain pattern of products, always also being a marketplace. Most opinion leaders are also sellers of stuff. - And while that is not necessarily always bad, and has, actually, in many cases, benefited the hobby to no small degree, it has also created a climate where some sellers masking as opinion leaders more or less overtly suggest that whoever doesn't endorse their product is somehow "intellectually impaired", "not on their team", or, even, "with the enemy". - This "politicization" of a private activity (playing games with family and friends) is usually accepted, because it comes with the general zeitgeist of not allowing people any moderate positions- - Which, in this case, extends to perfectly normal things like "I positively don't care about your Kickstarter". And so, somewhat consequently, your choices of game, style, or in-game content are stylized - by some - to be the result of hyper-intellectual contemplation and decision-making, when what they really want to say is: "Boohoo, why won't anybody buy my stuff?"


- And while I'm aware that my whole line of thought here might seem somewhat obvious and redundant, I think it's important to remind people from time to time that we are a market of consumers second, and a community of users FIRST. Because one thing suggests a hierarchy, while the other thing is all about equality. And, quite frankly, it's that equality that differentiates this community from others that deal with the same topics in way more aggressive ways.


So, if you're unhappy with the current state of the hobby, or of our corner of the hobby, in particular: Please vote with your valets, folks, and treat sellers like you would do as the paying customers they take you to be, in the end. And, more importantly, don't give any of those often self-fabricated wanna-be controversies any room: Sometimes, a failed project is just what it seems to be - bad business, conducted by shortsighted people, with no "martyrdom" involved, at all.

[oakesspalding]

I'd love to ask you what the kerfuffle was about, but I won't.

[Vile Traveller]

This is one of a few, specific places I spend any time at precisely because discussion here tends to be balanced, thoughtful, polite, and fun. Someone somewhere else does seem to have gotten a bee in their bonnet about things OSR and WotC lately, but I can't for the life of me see any basis for it. WotC just released Swords & Spells, of all things, so I really can't complain about those guys. The OSR, well, it's grown so big and diffuse and varied that even talking about it as some kind of entity is really railing against the universe.

To quote my recent Aussie guide on the Great Ocean Road, "It's all good mate!"

[coffee]

I don't know what the latest outrage is, either, and I'm happy that way. I confine my online interactions to right here and a few select other forums and blogs. And that's because we've all agreed to leave our drama at the door and get on with the good stuff, i.e.; our love of original D&D.

I've always enjoyed the civility of this place, and realize how truly rare that is out here in the wild, wild net.

Thanks, all of you, for keeping it that way!

[Deleted]

I'm not part of the OSR so I don't understand what the "different ends" of it are. But I will say that of all the hobbies I partake in (RPGs, boardgames, mini wargames, GIjOE collecting, pinball, etc) that RPGers are the worst. By an order of magnitude.

I think it's because of the huge amount of time and energy that must be dedicated to a single RPG campaign that breeds one-true-wayism. If you tell someone that you don't like a boardgame, you can discuss what's good or bad about it, but if you tell someone that their RPG isn't good you are, in effect, invalidating all the time and energy they put into that game. It makes it much easier to take things personally which leads to balkanization and purity tests.

The only thing I've seen that's close are video game console wars but, even that, is less vitriolic because people on all sides will have often played and enjoyed the same games. I've met RPGers that have been RPGing for 20 years and there isn't a single game in our collections that we have both played. We have no common ground.

[Deleted]

It's less one discussion or one forum in particular what has been ailing the OSR in recent years, it's - at least as I see it - more of a general thing: First, the debate about perceived sexism and racism doesn't seem to have done the hobby itself any good. Second, the market is shifting, as social media and crowdfunding play a bigger role than internet fora and conventions, now - and many of the mostly self-appointment "leaders of the hobby" see their influence vane.

And, third, and that's perhaps the most important aspect, mouthbreathers are having a hard time, right now. Ten years ago, when the first big oldschool projects came out (Castle Zagyg, OSRIC, Rappan Athuk - I think that was what started it), if each of us had gotten a cookie every time someone announced a shiny new project that was supposed to become "the real thing", we'd all be fat by now. - Because what happened, really, was that those guys who openly behaved unprofessionally and in a thoroughly uncivilized fashion didn't come to deliver anything worth the while. And those guys, they are now making noise, because making noise is really all they can do. Thankfully, though, the wider community is gradually stopping to pay them any attention. In a few years more, they will all be gone.


Like, guys, I'm perfectly aware that I'm about as charming a moderator as perhaps Glaurung, the dragon. But the one thing I can promise you is that none of those bullies will ever have a foothold here.

[bryce0lynch]

ODD74 is groovy.

[Gynsburghe]

Apr 19, 2017 8:59:55 GMT -6 @rafael said:

Like, guys, I'm perfectly aware that I'm about as charming a moderator as perhaps Glaurung, the dragon. But the one thing I can promise you is that none of those bullies will ever have a foothold here.

That's why I love this place, it is noticed, appreciated and well needed.

I have *no intent* of actually discussing the contents of the rabbit hole here, and I encourage those who blissfully don't know about the new kerfuffle varietals to stay so blessed.

Game On, Brothers (and Sisters)!

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2017 8:59:55 GMT -6 @rafael said:

Like, guys, I'm perfectly aware that I'm about as charming a moderator as perhaps Glaurung, the dragon. But the one thing I can promise you is that none of those bullies will ever have a foothold here.

Don't sell yourself short, you are much more charming than Glaurung! You have your moments, but who hasn't? I have consciously tried to model the atmosphere of my forum after this one for the civility of the tone, as this is the best example to follow that I know of. Finarvyn, should be held in high esteem by all, since his character and leadership are responsible for what we have here and for inspiring me to start my forum to cover a different piece of our niche.

[smubee]

Maybe I'm just sheltered, but I don't pay much attention to any other OSR or old school gaming activities.

I like that we all have passion for a game, and we all really seem like friends. Sure some people might not like other people, but ultimately we're all really nice to each other. It's a very positive experience being here and talking about a game. Sometimes people forget that what we're talking about is just a GAME. Meant to be played by all. And meant to be fun. The moment it stops being fun is the moment that you lose. Especially if you make it not fun for someone else. That's the absolute worst.

Just my two cents.

[Deleted]

I am not, nor have I ever been, any part of any old school 'renaissance.' I'm just playing this silly game the way I always did.

[tetramorph]

Well put, smubee. I know when to stop posting on a thread -- anywhere. I have a simple criteria. Have I stopped having fun? Or have I contributed to someone else no longer having fun? Then my contribution has ended.

I read on some OSR blog somewhere that was trying to describe different OSR fora for people: it said that ODD74 was "boring."

I take that as a great compliment. What it means is that we are not a bunch of drama-queens. We are not trying to entertain each other through posting. We are trying to support one another's fun encounter with a hobby (HOBBY) that we love.

Thanks, Finarvyn!

[oldkat]

I take that as a great compliment. What it means is that we are not a bunch of drama-queens.

Uh, you have seen MormonYoYoMan's avatar, right?

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2017 17:04:25 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Well put, smubee. I know when to stop posting on a thread -- anywhere. I have a simple criteria. Have I stopped having fun? Or have I contributed to someone else no longer having fun? Then my contribution has ended.

I read on some OSR blog somewhere that was trying to describe different OSR fora for people: it said that ODD74 was "boring."

I take that as a great compliment. What it means is that we are not a bunch of drama-queens. We are not trying to entertain each other through posting. We are trying to support one another's fun encounter with a hobby (HOBBY) that we love.

Thanks, Finarvyn!

I remember reading that comment about "boring" and I just chuckled and moved on! I guess it depends on what you find interesting, I have never been "bored" here.

[Finarvyn]

Thanks to Gynsburghe for starting a thread that seems to result in several of you thanking me for being so awesome. Gotta love the love around here.

Seriously, I'm glad that most of the internet uglies don't happen in this place. That's always been a high priority of mine.

[randyb]

Apr 19, 2017 17:04:25 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Well put, smubee. I know when to stop posting on a thread -- anywhere. I have a simple criteria. Have I stopped having fun? Or have I contributed to someone else no longer having fun? Then my contribution has ended.

I read on some OSR blog somewhere that was trying to describe different OSR fora for people: it said that ODD74 was "boring."

I take that as a great compliment. What it means is that we are not a bunch of drama-queens. We are not trying to entertain each other through posting. We are trying to support one another's fun encounter with a hobby (HOBBY) that we love.

Thanks, Finarvyn!

I prefer the descriptor "calm". I appreciate the absence of drama.

I do, however, find this forum to be entertaining, due to the content. Where other fora have their (few) gems of content scattered in dungheaps of drama, the gems here are simply presented for all to enjoy.

[Finarvyn]

I agree with you, randyb. The lack of drama is a definite plus, and I'll confess that when I log in and see that someone has reported a post or a thread to the Admin (this guy!) I feel my blood pressure spike. I think overall we have a great collection of folks who are more interested in intellectual discussion of a game we love than they are in "being right" or trying to influence others to change their view of gaming. That tends to keep the chatter more intellectual and less incendiary most of the time.

[bestialwarlust]

Apr 20, 2017 10:40:08 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I agree with you, randyb. The lack of drama is a definite plus, and I'll confess that when I log in and see that someone has reported a post or a thread to the Admin (this guy!) I feel my blood pressure spike. I think overall we have a great collection of folks who are more interested in intellectual discussion of a game we love than they are in "being right" or trying to influence others to change their view of gaming. That tends to keep the chatter more intellectual and less incendiary most of the time.

But....but....Everyone here is wrong if you don't play my way you're doing it all wrong!!! just wrong!!!! There is only one true way!!!!! (helping fin's BP spike just a little more )

[Gynsburghe]

Apr 20, 2017 4:46:09 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Thanks to Gynsburghe for starting a thread that seems to result in several of you thanking me for being so awesome. Gotta love the love around here.

Seriously, I'm glad that most of the internet uglies don't happen in this place. That's always been a high priority of mine.

Eh, you and the whole crowd here deserve it - just don't start telling the other forums that they're doing it wrong and we have the one true board...

[Deleted]

Apr 20, 2017 6:14:43 GMT -6 randyb said:

Apr 19, 2017 17:04:25 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Well put, smubee. I know when to stop posting on a thread -- anywhere. I have a simple criteria. Have I stopped having fun? Or have I contributed to someone else no longer having fun? Then my contribution has ended.

I read on some OSR blog somewhere that was trying to describe different OSR fora for people: it said that ODD74 was "boring."

I take that as a great compliment. What it means is that we are not a bunch of drama-queens. We are not trying to entertain each other through posting. We are trying to support one another's fun encounter with a hobby (HOBBY) that we love.

Thanks, Finarvyn!

I prefer the descriptor "calm". I appreciate the absence of drama.

I do, however, find this forum to be entertaining, due to the content. Where other fora have their (few) gems of content scattered in dungheaps of drama, the gems here are simply presented for all to enjoy.

Well put! randyb Well put indeed!

[randyb]

Apr 20, 2017 12:14:43 GMT -6 Gynsburghe said:

Apr 20, 2017 4:46:09 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Thanks to Gynsburghe for starting a thread that seems to result in several of you thanking me for being so awesome. Gotta love the love around here.

Seriously, I'm glad that most of the internet uglies don't happen in this place. That's always been a high priority of mine.

Eh, you and the whole crowd here deserve it - just don't start telling the other forums that they're doing it wrong and we have the one true board...

Let them discover it for themselves...

[MormonYoYoMan]

Apr 20, 2017 12:01:06 GMT -6 bestialwarlust said:

Apr 20, 2017 10:40:08 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I agree with you, randyb. The lack of drama is a definite plus, and I'll confess that when I log in and see that someone has reported a post or a thread to the Admin (this guy!) I feel my blood pressure spike. I think overall we have a great collection of folks who are more interested in intellectual discussion of a game we love than they are in "being right" or trying to influence others to change their view of gaming. That tends to keep the chatter more intellectual and less incendiary most of the time.

But....but....Everyone here is wrong if you don't play my way you're doing it all wrong!!! just wrong!!!! There is only one true way!!!!! (helping fin's BP spike just a little more )

We're with you, but you don't go far enough. It's not just everyone here. It's everyone EVERYWHERE. As a wiseacre once said, only you and I are right and I am not sure about you.

[Deleted]

I am a participant in one of the threads referenced by Gynsburghe in the original post. Like that thread, I have mixed feelings about this one.

I don’t disagree that ODD74 is polite. It is.

And I don’t disagree that civility is a virtue. It is (though I am an imperfect practitioner of it at best).

But I do have reservations about a civility that admits of no divisions or disagreements. It seems to me that civility is more about trying to disagree respectfully than avoiding disagreement (as distinguished from unnecessary disagreement). I’ve also seen calls for civility used to stifle one side of a legitimate debate in and outside of the OSR. I’m not saying that’s what is happening here. I just think it bears consideration that what is required by civility is sometimes debatable or less than self-evident.

Here’s the rub for present purposes:

Part of the current kerfuffle concerns negative assessments of certain products. I don’t think it can be reasonably argued that civility demands that folks refrain from making negative product reviews. It’s reasonable to expect criticism to be substantive, on the merits, rather than based on personal animus or insult. But a member of ODD74 or any other forum who pans a product on the merits is not being uncivil any more than Roger Ebert was being uncivil when he gave a movie a thumbs down, even if he characterized a given movie’s flaws in colorful prose. There’s a limit to what colorful prose permits within the bounds of civil discourse, of course, but its outer boundaries can be fuzzy sometimes.

I am not suggesting that ODD74 should or should not make space for such reviews or debate—just that there is a place for it somewhere, and it does not constitute “hate.”

When some folks occasionally make criticism more personal than it needs to be, I’d recommend charity if possible—that you try to understand their point of view and the substantive points they are imperfectly expressing. Trust me, you’ll need that charity sooner or later yourself. (I know I will.)

Thanks for hearing me out.

[Deleted]

As long as everybody remembers that I'm always right, things will remain perfectly calm here.