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Post by retrorob on Aug 15, 2019 7:48:27 GMT -6
> To save space probably < So you think that "All Wands" was included along with "Polymorph or Paralyzation" to save space? This may very well be true, but I thought that there must have been a game design rationale for the saving throw categories along with the save #s. I am still wondering why these got bundled together into one saving throw category/column. If you look at the Fighter saving throw progression, one might think that "All Wands" are included as weaker-form of spell if you compare the relative save #s between vs. All Wands and vs. Spells. However, if you look at the MU saving throw progression, you can see that they start off better vs. Wands than vs. Spells, but end up being worse vs. Wands than vs. Spells . . . Dying is the worst thing that can happen to your character, because it's the hardest to come back from. I disagree. Say it to a petrified character with a Constitution of 3. A fate far worse than death - been there, done that (as a player of course). To back from the dead you need a friendly Lama or Abbott (Cleric 7). To reverse "stone", find a 12th level Wizard... Besides, in CHAINMAIL the chance to avoid a wizard's missile is better than versus dragon fire or basilisk's gaze (that only Wizards and Super Heroes can survive), so I don't think save vs Spell is the worst possible scenario. I guess there is too much philosophy around it. Too much rationalization as well. D&D has 5 categories, EPT only 4, BTPBD even 6. Paralysis in AD&D was bundled with Death Magic & Poison, in "classic" D&D with Turn to Stone. Where is logic here? "Disintegrate" kills you immediately unless you save vs Magic. Disintegration is even worse than death, you can't just go back, so why not to save vs Death Ray? Poison kills you, but apparently not always, if you can save for half damage. So maybe ST against such Poison should be harder than versus Stone? Etc.
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Post by peterlind on Aug 17, 2019 20:41:42 GMT -6
Ok so we know how what happened with the "All Wands -- Including Polymorph or Paralyzation" in AD&D and B/X. But what is a good rationale for retaining it per OD&D? Here are some thoughts:
- Paralyzation is a "death-like" state which is temporary, and thus the save is a bit higher than Death/Poison. - Polymorph is a less powerful transformation effect than Turn to Stone (Basilisk Gaze) and thus has a bit easier save. - Wands: When a staff is activated, it is more like casting a spell. However, for Wands, it is more like activating a device. It is pointed at the target and the command word is spoken to discharge the effect. This may explain why higher level mages have a easier save vs. staves/spells than vs. wands -- because of this difference in how they are activated.
Just some thoughts. . .
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Post by retrorob on Aug 18, 2019 9:31:54 GMT -6
Well, without the access to Guidon D&D draft we can say nothing for sure about the development of the Saving Throws mechanics. Probably the categories there where similar (maybe even identical) to those in BTPBD: Death Ray, Poison, Paralization, Stone, Dragon Breath, Spells. As paralization has its own column, there is no need for rationalization whether it's better than poison/stone or not. Take note that there was no Wands / Staves in BTPBD (neither in GD&D?). You may read "All Wands -- Including Polymorph or Paralyzation" as 2 separate categories but with the same values, just as with the "Death Ray or Poison", so "All Wands or Paralyzation". I can only guess that Wands, after getting a seperate save at some point, were bundled with Paralyzation and Death Ray with Poison, Staves were also added and bundled with Spells. Five columns look better than seven or even eight, so I think Gary just saved some space.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 10, 2020 21:17:32 GMT -6
There are a lot of instances of "Saving Throw vs. Magic" in the rules - but what does that actually mean? There is no such category in the matrix.
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Post by hamurai on Feb 11, 2020 0:46:19 GMT -6
As I've always done it, magic can be anything that causes one of the existing saving throws. So, a spell to petrify would be a saving throw versus magic & petrification, if you have a bonus for one or the other, it applies. A gaze to petrify wouldn't allow using a bonus to saves versus magic, for example.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 11, 2020 1:22:59 GMT -6
As I've always done it, magic can be anything that causes one of the existing saving throws. So, a spell to petrify would be a saving throw versus magic & petrification, if you have a bonus for one or the other, it applies. A gaze to petrify wouldn't allow using a bonus to saves versus magic, for example. That works if it's relatively obvious, but there are cases where it's not - for example, Drums of Panic - for morale throw use saving throw vs. magic. I wonder if there is some universal unwritten "rule" which mapped saves vs. magic to, for instance, (staves &) spells. B/X uses a save vs. spells for Drums of Panic, though I don't know whether that means anything.
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Post by hamurai on Feb 11, 2020 1:51:31 GMT -6
Ah, I see. Well, the Drums of Panic are the only "miscellaneous" magic item in M&T which grants a saving throw. I'd probably use it just like a Wand of Fear, which also grants a saving throw vs. magic to avoid the panic and it being a wand it uses the Wands saving throw, so I'd use it for the Drums of Panic too.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 11, 2020 2:50:51 GMT -6
I agree, though on that basis I'd prefer a save vs. spells & staves, as it's tougher than vs. wands - and drums of panic seem like a more powerful item than a wand.
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Post by retrorob on Feb 11, 2020 3:12:57 GMT -6
I agree with Vile Traveller as for the drums of panic. For me "magic" means ST vs spells. I use "wands" only for wands.
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Post by hamurai on Feb 11, 2020 5:06:41 GMT -6
Given that the effect of the Drums of Panic is more powerful than that of the Wand of Fear (because of the less limited area of effect), I'd be OK if the ST was easier. It's still a pretty powerful item, I think.
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Post by calindke on Mar 12, 2020 14:06:44 GMT -6
Looking at talysman's logic of "more lethal = easier saves" it makes perfect sense that a Wizard would have better saves vs. 8 die fireballs than 6 die fireballs. It doesn't make from a "physics" perspective, but it does from a mitigating risk and narrative one. I don't know if talysman is "right" in his argument, but it seems a very plausible one and one that I might use in assigning saves in my home games. Players hate "save or die" situations and while I might want to include them, I would also want to put a finger on the scales in favor of the players' characters.
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