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Post by geoffrey on Aug 19, 2016 19:16:00 GMT -6
In another thread Melan asked me for a description of my current campaign. In no particular order, here are some characteristics: 1. I use the map of Wilderland in The Hobbit as the geographic setting. Take a look at that map. Imagine using the line marking the "Edge of the Wild" as the westernmost boundary. Now imagine drawing a north-south line so it skims the top of the "n" in the words "Misty Mountains". Then imagine an east-west line skimming the bottom of the word "Smaug". You'll have made a nice little rectangle in the NW corner. Now picture the map divided into 16 equally-sized rectangles. You'll notice that the easternmost rectangles consist of about 50% map and about 50% blank paper off the edge of the map. Here is the reason for that: 2. I conceive of these lands as lying immediately west of the Elphand Lands and of the realm of the City State of the World Emperor (both parts of the Wilderlands, originally published by Judges Guild). 3. I've crudely re-drawn The Hobbit's Wilderland map onto four Judges Guild hex maps (each of which measures 22" by 17") with 5-mile hexes. This left about a dozen columns of hexes on the easternmost hex maps blank--until I drew lands that matched them up with the lands mentioned in point 2 above. 4. I thoroughly ignore The Lord of the Rings, both in terms of its history and its geography. I do use some stuff as background legends from Tolkien's 4th volume (of twelve) of The History of Middle-earth, since this contains writings that the good professor wrote at the same time he wrote The Hobbit. 5. For rules I use Gary's AD&D Monster Manual, Players Handbook, and Dungeon Masters Guide. The stuff therein "fills in the cracks", so to speak, of The Hobbit. Bilbo and company encountered merely a sliver of what can be found. 6. This results in a sort of Tolkienized swords & sorcery (which phrase I think I remember Melan using to describe the Wilderlands themselves), or in a swords & sorcery Middle-earth. Perhaps "Hobbit + Conan" says it well. 7. I use Necromancer's Wilderlands boxed set as the basis for the Wilderlands off to the east. I make only one systematic change: I replace all halflings with humans. Why? Because hobbits all live in the more civilized lands to the west of Wilderland, and far to the west of the Wilderlands. If you remember, nobody seemed to know what a hobbit was in Wilderland. ("A burrahobbit?") Bilbo was essentially an Edwardian Englishman who wandered into Faerie and was repeatedly shocked and appalled at what he encountered there. Hobbits exist in Fantasy Land about as (un)comfortably as we would. 8. Thus far the campaign action has taken place more towards the NW corner of Wilderland. Consequently my maps get less detailed the farther east or south one goes. 9. It's a campaign setting in which the likes of Balin, Kull, Gandalf, Turjan, Bard, Jirel, Elrond, Satampra Zeiros, etc. encounter gelatinous cubes, purple worms, orcs, harpies, trolls, beholders, giant eagles, etc. and find wands of fire, potions of extra-healing, rings of invisibility, +2 bardiches, etc. and chests of gold pieces, electrum necklaces set with aquamarines, platinum idols, etc. 10. Crypto-Christian clerics have churches (think of Greyhawk's St. Cuthbert in his earliest incarnation), while secretive evil clerics worshiping the powers of darkness engage in weird wickedness. 11. The lands are mostly wilderness, in keeping with the way that Wilderland is presented in The Hobbit and with the nature of the Wilderlands. 12. I have placed a big dungeon under the shadow of the Misty Mountains which serves as the campaign's "main dungeon", though more action has taken place outside the dungeon than inside it. If Melan or anyone else has any questions, please feel free to ask.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 2:31:39 GMT -6
Two basic questions from my side, Geoff:
1. So, doe Tolkienian locations and characters appear, and are the players aware of those references? Do they "campaign with Gandalf", so to speak?
2. How much Carcosa is in the Wildlands?
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Post by cadriel on Aug 20, 2016 5:51:05 GMT -6
2. I conceive of these lands as lying immediately west of the Elphand Lands and of the realm of the City State of the World Emperor (both parts of the Wilderlands, originally published by Judges Guild). How does this affect your campaign? Do you work in material from any of the Wilderlands books and/or the Ready Ref Sheets? So are your elves quendi, speaking Sindarin? Is there any deep history from the Silmarillion or Akallabêth to your setting, or is that all discarded with LotR? Do you play with any of the touches of technology in The Hobbit? For instance, Bilbo has a thoroughly modern clock in the opening chapters, and there are a few other hints of anachronism in the book such as mentions of trains. Are Illuvatar and the Valar / Maiar part of the setting at all? Ditto for Morgoth and Sauron.
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Post by Red Baron on Aug 20, 2016 6:50:50 GMT -6
Awesome! This is a goldmine of useful stuff! I also love the episodic S&S vibe of The Hobbit, which reads to me as a bunch of fantastic fairy-tales loosely strung together. The Fellowship of the Ring starts off in this way, with barrow wights, killer trees, death knights, but LOTR quickly looses this as the plot progresses. I'm working on a Lonely Mountain dungeon and ruined Wraith Fortress dungeons in the grey mountains for a Holmes game with dwarfs, hobbits, and fighting-men only, and Port Town = Lake Town. The map runs from mirkwood (trollwood) to the grey mountains to Rhun (CSIO), with sparta, athens, and troy on the Rhun sea. I'm going to toss some lizard-men into the bar and add a church. Dwarfs are fairy-tale dwarfs with colorful cloaks and bears and are the most common class at 50% of all characters, as a str < 9 is needed to qualify as a hobbit and a str > 12 is needed to qualify as a man. I did a crude mock-up of Moria as practice last night at a 1 square = 120' vertical, 4000' horizontal scale: The whole thing is about 20 miles by 1 mile. Each 4000' section fits on a separate sheet of graph paper at 100' per square and line-tunnels. I'm going to play around with massive architecture like bridges crossing over chambers, massive bridges running overhead in chambers, underground towers and walls to hold off choke points, thousand-foot winding bridges over chasms, and lots of sloping passages, stairs, and passages running over/under each other. There are both massive hundreds of feet by hundreds of feet galleries and small d&d sized rooms. At 538 4000'x120' sections * 20 galleries and chambers per section * half empty rooms = 5380 rooms to stock!!!. Luckily the sections are pretty modular so a handful of maps and a few room descriptions should give me a lot of playtime, and the rooms are big enough to just toss an entire KOTBordermines in there (run by orcs!) to block off a passage I'd rather not have players go down. Both the Lonely-Mountain and the Dungeons of the Wraith Fortress are a bit smaller than the Moria sketch (~3/4 the size). Can you tell me more about your "main dungeon" in the Grey Mountains?
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 20, 2016 14:38:30 GMT -6
Two basic questions from my side, Geoff: 1. So, do Tolkienian locations and characters appear, and are the players aware of those references? Do they "campaign with Gandalf", so to speak? 2. How much Carcosa is in the Wildlands? 1. The campaign started 9 years after the slaying of Smaug. I allow PCs to have the knowledge of The Hobbit that their players have. The players have not met Gandalf, Dain, Elrond, Beorn, or any of the rest, but it is certainly possible. All of these characters from the book exist in the campaign world. 2. You'll notice that in the large-scale map on page 5 of Necromancer's Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set, the Demon Empires are immediately to the south of the Wilderlands. I like to assume that the lands of Carcosa are the Demon Empires.
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Post by jeffb on Aug 20, 2016 16:25:34 GMT -6
Honan The Breebarian
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 20, 2016 18:35:42 GMT -6
2. I conceive of these lands as lying immediately west of the Elphand Lands and of the realm of the City State of the World Emperor (both parts of the Wilderlands, originally published by Judges Guild). How does this affect your campaign? Do you work in material from any of the Wilderlands books and/or the Ready Ref Sheets? So are your elves quendi, speaking Sindarin? Is there any deep history from the Silmarillion or Akallabêth to your setting, or is that all discarded with LotR? Do you play with any of the touches of technology in The Hobbit? For instance, Bilbo has a thoroughly modern clock in the opening chapters, and there are a few other hints of anachronism in the book such as mentions of trains. Are Illuvatar and the Valar / Maiar part of the setting at all? Ditto for Morgoth and Sauron. So far having the Wilderlands to the immediate east has not affected the campaign, which has concentrated in the NW part of the map. Certainly Wilderlands stuff will start to bleed over as they approach the eastern edge of the map. I use this book for inspiration for legends from long ago: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shaping_of_Middle-earthOnly The Hobbit is "canonical", so to speak. The above book I merely pick through. Tolkien's other works I ignore. I think of AD&D's gray elves as Tolkien's elves that went over the sea and did not rebel, I think of AD&D's high elves as Noldor, and I think of AD&D's wood elves as of the same sort as the elves of Mirkwood. Yeah, I imagine Hobbiton off the western edge of the map as having many of those quaint anachronisms (but not trains!) that you mention. If I ever have any hobbits actually in the campaign, I plan on taking their names from Charles Dickens novels. Given crypto-Christianity, Illuvatar = God, the Valar and Maiar = angels, and Morgoth = the devil. No Sauron. But none of this is really gone into. It's all far in the background.
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 20, 2016 19:37:14 GMT -6
Can you tell me more about your "main dungeon" in the Grey Mountains? Red Baron, thank you for your post. It is likewise inspirational. My main dungeon is near the Misty Mountains, but not actually amongst them. Long ago the worm cult delved these dungeons deep into the bedrock. They served as temples and strongholds for the cult, but the cultists gradually abandoned the dungeons. (Think of the temple of Tharizdun on this score.) Now the complex (with 18 levels rumored) sits full of monsters, magic, and treasures. I like to think of it as a definitive A/D&D dungeon. It is what one typically thinks of when he thinks of an A/D&D dungeon.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 20, 2016 20:50:53 GMT -6
So are your elves quendi, speaking Sindarin? FYI, the “Welsh-style” language was known as Gnomish, or Noldorin, the language of the exiles, in this period of development.
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Post by Melan on Aug 21, 2016 8:05:31 GMT -6
Thanks, Geoffrey!
Very informative. I believe you were already interested in running a similar campaign a few years ago, so it is interesting to see what came of it. You chose one of the most interesting areas, too - the Mirkwood is a vast sea of trees, perhaps most similar to Russia around the time of the Kievan Rus, where the "points of light" concept is in full swing.
Human fiefdoms, as they are, are small and separated by vast distances; many of them are more like Beorn's homestead than even the villages of Hobbiton. You could find anything in the forest, or rather stumble on it, since landmarks would be well hidden among so many trees. Still, it probably wouldn't be forbiddingly high-level, but more of a game where the challenges plateaued at 9th or at most 11th level, and most would be in a 4th-6th level interval.
The Wilderlands+Hobbit combination goes back to the original proto-Wilderlands campaign Bob Bledsaw was running, so we could say you are continuing a time-tested tradition!
I am curious about how you organise the campaign. - Do you populate a lot of hexes, similar to Carcosa? (And if yes, more like the old set or the more detailed Carcosa modules?) - Do you focus on small dungeons, or is it one big dungeon and a surrounding wilderness? - What kind of characters are in play, and how do they approach the setting? Do they go off exploring, or focus on specific goals, either given to them by someone or discovered on their own?
If I were to run a similar campaign (and I have contemplated it), I'd either go for a land with a lot of historical megafauna, or something that was straightforward European high fantasy with no weird elements, and perhaps withot many D&Disms (so perhaps no clerics!)
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by premmy on Aug 21, 2016 9:48:54 GMT -6
"I passed the place where Balthus and the dog made their last stand. They were lying amid a heap of dead Hobbits—I counted seven, brained by his ax, or disemboweled by the dog’s fangs, and there were others in the road with arrows sticking in them. Gods, what a fight that must have been!" "He was a man," said Conan. "I drink to his shade, and to the shade of the dog, who knew no fear." He quaffed part of the wine, then emptied the rest upon the floor, with a curious heathen gesture, and smashed the goblet. "The heads of ten Tooks shall pay for his, and seven Bagginses for the dog, who was a better warrior than many a man." - R. E. Howard: Beyond the Brandywine River
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 22, 2016 12:19:33 GMT -6
Thanks, Geoffrey! Very informative. I believe you were already interested in running a similar campaign a few years ago, so it is interesting to see what came of it. You chose one of the most interesting areas, too - the Mirkwood is a vast sea of trees, perhaps most similar to Russia around the time of the Kievan Rus, where the "points of light" concept is in full swing. Human fiefdoms, as they are, are small and separated by vast distances; many of them are more like Beorn's homestead than even the villages of Hobbiton. You could find anything in the forest, or rather stumble on it, since landmarks would be well hidden among so many trees. Still, it probably wouldn't be forbiddingly high-level, but more of a game where the challenges plateaued at 9th or at most 11th level, and most would be in a 4th-6th level interval. The Wilderlands+Hobbit combination goes back to the original proto-Wilderlands campaign Bob Bledsaw was running, so we could say you are continuing a time-tested tradition! I am curious about how you organise the campaign. - Do you populate a lot of hexes, similar to Carcosa? (And if yes, more like the old set or the more detailed Carcosa modules?) - Do you focus on small dungeons, or is it one big dungeon and a surrounding wilderness? - What kind of characters are in play, and how do they approach the setting? Do they go off exploring, or focus on specific goals, either given to them by someone or discovered on their own? If I were to run a similar campaign (and I have contemplated it), I'd either go for a land with a lot of historical megafauna, or something that was straightforward European high fantasy with no weird elements, and perhaps without many D&Disms (so perhaps no clerics!) That's right: I've been mulling over a campaign like this for quite some time. I certainly think that the Wilderland is easily the most interesting part of Middle-earth for D&D games. Now for your questions: 1. In each of the segments that comprises one-sixteenth of the Wilderland map, I am describing 40+ hexes. Again, since the campaign play thus far has been in the NW area of the map, the farther south or east one goes the less I have already done. I'm using the same level of detail as the recent AD&D modules for Carcosa. 2. There are plenty of small dungeons and lots of wilderness exploration in addition to the main dungeon. I would roughly estimate the time spent thus far has been 50% wilderness, 30% main dungeon, and 20% small dungeons. 3. There are six main characters: four humans, one mountain dwarf, and one high elf. The elf is F/MU, the dwarf is a fighter, and the humans are one fighter, one magic-user, and two LG clerics. All but the human magic-user are good-aligned. (He is neutral.) I don't remember the exact level of each character off-hand, but they are in the 3rd to 5th range. Exploration is the main approach, but in their travels the PCs have taken-up a number of specific goals/quests.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Aug 22, 2016 19:07:29 GMT -6
I have a tangential question: I'm trying to find all of the Wilderlands books published by JG in the olden days, because it's high time I read up on the setting. I'm a bit confused about which of their books use the setting, though - am I right in thinking that CSIO is also part of the Wilderlands? Are any of their adventures set in the Wilderlands? Anyhow, a complete list would be great!
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Post by Falconer on Aug 22, 2016 19:10:51 GMT -6
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Post by Falconer on Aug 23, 2016 13:06:32 GMT -6
Considering that Wilderland is basically a Beleriand map redrawn to suit the story, have you thought about placing more Beleriand elements from the (1937) ‘Silmarillion’ on it, and/or using it as a setting for more direct ‘Silmarillion’ sequel-style stories?
Eg., the goblin capital, many-peaked Mount Gundabad, surely conceals a valley where lie the ruins of Gondolin (a.k.a. Gondobar).
How about a remnant of Fëanorians somewhere (beyond the Grey Mountains?) — something like the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, but hidden, and tragically evil, and ready to spring a vile plot when they catch word of the Arkenstone (obviously a Silmaril)?
Stuff like that.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 23, 2016 13:37:13 GMT -6
Here is how I would approach religion; understanding that we are not necessarily talking about formal worship (except necessarily for baddies), but rather what entities various populations may typically call upon for aid or otherwise relate to or whatever: - Elves – The Valar*
- Men of Light – Ilúvatar
- Men of Twilight – Béma, and other crypto-Valar and spirits
- Men of Darkness – Morgoth, and Thû* and other fallen spirits
- Dwarves – ancestors, especially the original Fathers, i.e., Durin and Mótsognir
- Hobbits – Lor* (crypto-Ilúvatar)
* The Valar - I like the term “The Nine Gods” which appears in every version of the ‘Silmarillion’ (see IV, V, and X). I also like this list from A Guide to Middle-earth (predating the 1977 publication of The Silmarillion): “Aulë, Elbereth, Manwe, Melian, Morgoth and Oromë”. * Thû - I always liked this name for the Necromancer, which I believe would have been current during the writing of The Hobbit; and this bit from ‘The Lay of Leithian’ (also submitted for publication alongside the ‘Silmarillion’ in 1937): “Men called him Thû, and as a god / in after days beneath his rod / bewildered bowed to him, and made / his ghastly temples in the shade” suggests evil shrines abound in Mirkwood. * Lor (from Sam’s expression “Lor bless you/me”) - from FotR, which is outside the scope of your canon, but, I always loved this!
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 23, 2016 17:43:33 GMT -6
Considering that Wilderland is basically a Beleriand map redrawn to suit the story, have you thought about placing more Beleriand elements from the (1937) ‘Silmarillion’ on it, and/or using it as a setting for more direct ‘Silmarillion’ sequel-style stories? Eg., the goblin capital, many-peaked Mount Gundabad, surely conceals a valley where lie the ruins of Gondolin (a.k.a. Gondobar). How about a remnant of Fëanorians somewhere (beyond the Grey Mountains?) — something like the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, but hidden, and tragically evil, and ready to spring a vile plot when they catch word of the Arkenstone (obviously a Silmaril)? Stuff like that. I pick through The Shaping of Middle-earth for inspiration for legends from long ago, but I do not regard it as canonical but only as inspirational. As you mentioned, the writings in that volume were roughly contemporary with the writing of The Hobbit, so the good professor's mind was full of all of this stuff in the early 1930s. BTW, was Gondolin on Mount Gundabad? For some reason I always imagined it in the Misty Mountains.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 23, 2016 20:13:45 GMT -6
BTW, was Gondolin on Mount Gundabad? For some reason I always imagined it in the Misty Mountains. Err, well, it was never actually placed on the Hobbit map (or the Lord of the Rings map). On the Silmarillion map, on the western end of a mountain range lies a hidden valley encircled by mountains, guarded by great eagles; perhaps you have seen Ted Nasmith’s illustration: The Misty Mountains placement is suggested by the proximity of Rivendell (the hidden valley of Gondolin refugees led by Turgon’s heir) and the three magical swords of Gondolin in the trolls’ lair, the fact that the goblins in Goblin-town recognize the swords on sight (suggesting they are veterans of the Fall of Gondolin), and the presence of the Eagle’s Eyrie. Where exactly in the Misty Mountains it might be is anyone’s guess, but the High Pass seems to be the rightful home of the Were-bears. Mount Gundabad is in the Misty Mountains, FWIW, albeit the northern end, and in the drafts provided in HotH it is called Gondobad (and Rateliff may have suggested the connection).
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 24, 2016 8:23:54 GMT -6
Doh! Of course you're right. Gondolin was placed on the map of Beleriand.
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Post by ritt on Oct 1, 2016 19:23:47 GMT -6
Jesus.
No offence, Geoffrey, but this is exquisitely nuts. In the best way.
I have never really been a Tolkien fan. Raised on stuff like Edgar Rice Burroughs, I've always found him a little too uptight and... "stoggy", for want of a better term. I've admired his work more than I've actually enjoyed it.
But cool people hacking tolkien to create their own weird stuff? Rock on. Awesome.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 2, 2016 16:19:12 GMT -6
Thanks! Seven years old: I watched the 1977 The Hobbit cartoon on November 27, 1977. Ten years old: I started playing D&D in late 1980. Eleven years old: I first read The Hobbit in the spring of 1982. When I started playing D&D, I assumed it all took place in the world of The Hobbit. My first character (a human magic-user) was named "Hobbit". Later when I saw a paperback copy of The Hobbit advertised in a school book-club order form, I excitedly ordered it. I had no idea that the cartoon was based on a book. When I got it I eagerly read it every day after getting home from school. Some of my fondest memories are of lying on the couch reading that book for the first time. I unquestioningly assumed that it took place in D&D Land. In short, at ages 10 and 11 I thought that D&D = The Hobbit and vice versa. I therefore have a natural inclination to conflate the two. It was only by happenchance that Bilbo in his adventure found a ring of invisibility and ran into goblins, stone giants, giant spiders, wood elves, and a red dragon. He could have just as easily found a bag of holding and ran into gnolls, fire giants, a gelatinous cube, minotaurs, and a purple worm.
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Post by Falconer on Oct 3, 2016 8:27:55 GMT -6
A wild were-worm, no doubt.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 3, 2016 11:52:59 GMT -6
A wild were-worm, no doubt. Exactly.
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 5, 2016 1:29:49 GMT -6
Lots of great ideas on this thread! I'm a mix-&-match guy myself, although I haven't done that with Middle-earth. I have my ideas on running a campaign in Pete Fenlon's expanded map of Middle=earth. Falconer : I like your ideas on religion. @red baron: Your fairy tale dwarfs sound interesting. I think AD&D gnomes would be a natural fit for those. I had thought of a setting with only humans and gnomes, since the latter never seem to be used much. I'd make clerics, paladins, and magic-users human-only classes. Druids, rangers, and illusionists would be the gnome counterparts. Note: I prefer elf characters myself, ever since I read the Silmarillion at age 13. I've never forgiven the dwarves for slaying Thingol and sacking Doriath!
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Post by Falconer on Oct 5, 2016 9:00:06 GMT -6
Did you ever read the full version of that tale?
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 5, 2016 11:00:45 GMT -6
The Silmarillion? I read that book, as well as the first five volumes of the Histories.
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Post by Falconer on Oct 5, 2016 13:00:02 GMT -6
I mean the full Nauglafring. The dwarves do not exactly come off well, but Thingol was not the wronged party.
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 5, 2016 13:32:30 GMT -6
Very true, but I'm biased.
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Post by Falconer on Oct 5, 2016 14:11:27 GMT -6
I was doubtless biased in the opposite direction by The Hobbit, in which, although Thingol comes out as good and wise in the end, he never truly rehabilitates his likability after imprisoning the dwarves.
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Post by Falconer on Oct 5, 2016 14:48:44 GMT -6
My other favorite name for Sauron is Zigūr, his Adûnaic name (Adûnaic being the Númenórean language, but of course all the good Númenóreans used Sindarin).
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