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Post by smubee on Aug 5, 2016 22:11:11 GMT -6
Give me a thin pamphlet with Gygax-speak over almost anything else out there any day! Honestly, this is most of the reason why I love OD&D and the 3 core rulebooks of AD&D so much. |
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Post by archersix on Aug 7, 2016 9:41:13 GMT -6
Yes, the Gygax-Speak was one of the things that made the early D&D and AD&D stuff so cool. Along with the Byzantine lay out of the rules, the funny dice, the cool artwork that is crude by modern standards, and even the bad connotations it had in larger society, all that stuff together gave those of us who 'got it' a real sense of togetherness and comraderie.
That's something that today's more polished products can't match IMHO.
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Post by captainjapan on Aug 20, 2023 5:28:04 GMT -6
There was little demand for such a product because the reaction against Dungeons & Dragons was what made D&D popular. It's more cool if it's forbidden. And the product you were looking for was Runequest. Not Runequest, but there was a version of Basic Roleplaying around the time that fit the bill. Don't recall the name, but it explained "What is role-playing?" by walking you through the way rolls worked. Skills improved through either training or the standard roll over skill checks. What would have made it better would be a d6-based resolution system, maybe a merger between ideas of TFT and BRP. And, since you can't get rid of the anti-D&D crazies, you leverage their crazy against them by making the setting a time-honored part of western culture: Arthurian, Greek mythology, or Grimm's fairy tales, or even biblical times. Are the crazy people really going to say that pretending to be King Arthur or Samson is going to lead you to Satan? If so, there's a built-in skepticism, even among religious folks. I would agree that Basic Roleplaying from Chaosium most resembles what the op requested; being that it is very "basic" AND ships under such an innocuous title. I received my copy as part of another game, so I'm not certain that Basic Roleplaying could be had as a standalone product. In regards to avoiding the "satanic panic", yes, I think that a game without the offending trade dress might have slipped past, initially. However, the main instigators of the anti-D&D campaign could, and did, mark any roleplaying as a corrupter of youth in a general sense. The organization, B.A.D.D. warned against children becoming swept up in make-believe violence to the extent that it would start spilling over, into the real world. Murder, arson, rape, and torture are possible, and in some combination even probable, in a game session run for adolescent boys. No ruleset can effectively prohibit the roleplaying of criminal activity (murder hobo-ing). Nor should they try. Satanic Panic or not; the moment that some troubled kid blows their younger sibling away and parents/investigators rifle through their belongings to find personal accounts of pretend violence or published rules on how to commit said violence, alarm bells are going to go off. Connections will be "discovered". Games will be demonized. I don't know if you can circumvent this process by superficially neutering the game to make it appear innocent. Roleplaying is roleplaying. To some people's understanding, teens are not psychologically mature enough to be trusted with a game who's possibilities are wide open, like that. |
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Post by machfront on Aug 20, 2023 7:02:24 GMT -6
I’d forgotten all about this thread, actually.
But, yes, I do wish I’d have had a D&D alternative as easy or easier than D&D without ‘sounding’ like D&D.
As I suggested years ago in my earliest posts, had I known of, had access to, and attempted to buy T&T it would have been viewed with the same suspicion by my parents. Well…my mother. 🙄
“Middle Earth Role Playing” was allowed, despite being ‘the same’….but, of course…the rules. Ugh.
Warhammer, I avoided because of the cover art.
Looking back now…had the Fighting Fantasy Role Playing Game been something widely known here in the States, especially “Advanced Fighting Fantasy”, it would have been perfect for me. But AFF wasn’t a thing until I was old enough that stuff had died down, I could buy my own, and also knew how to hide things in plain view, etc., etc.
Besides, the oldest of my two older sisters (who always got me Tolkien stuff for each b day and Christmas), got me the Lord of the Rings Adventure game for Christmas of, I think, 1991. Again, too late.
Had LoR been released in 1986, again…it would have been perfect. I’d have LOVED, wanted and really needed that then!
I needed LoR or AFF or games such as that in 1986 (or earlier).
BRP would have frustrated me as much as MERP did.
I needed something super simple and super easy (as D&D was to me then, at least).
Now, as it happens, it’s all I want now.
As I’m finding even old-school D&D to be even too much for me these days.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Aug 20, 2023 13:36:20 GMT -6
Changing the name wouldn't have made any difference to the witch hunters. I was there, and even Traveller players were feeling the heat. That's surprising. I don't remember Traveller -- or any other non- D&D game -- coming up in discussions, witch-hunts or tirades. It was solely D&D that got the heat from the Satanic Panic people. (My family had just arrived in Missouri from the D.C. area around mid-'79 as the Panic was starting to rear its ugly head in the Midwest/South.) There were some fantasy-themed gamebooks ( Fighting Fantasy was starting to become available around '83 or so, based on personal memory of going to a local bookstore and buying Forest of Doom. Aaahhh, nostalgia!), but I don't remember any gamebooks being singled out either. However, in response to the controversy Puffin's House of Hell was renamed to Dell's House of Hades. Neither did I hear a peep about Star Frontiers, Call of Cthulhu (surprisingly!), Chivalry & Sorcery, In the Labyrinth/Melee/Wizard, etc., etc. WEG Star Wars didn't come around until '87, so that was a bit late. (In retrospect there were indeed some fundamentalists who vociferously objected to The Force in Star Wars, claiming that was some form of deviltry. *eye-roll* |
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Post by stevemitchell on Aug 20, 2023 14:58:31 GMT -6
I wonder what they thought about KULT, which included an NPC clearly modeled on Jesus (in one of the supplements, I think). And lots of heretical Gnostic theology!
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Post by captainjapan on Aug 20, 2023 15:26:38 GMT -6
DungeonDevil said: This describes my born again grandmother. And here, I thought she was the only one.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 20, 2023 16:54:29 GMT -6
WEG Star Wars didn't come around until '87, so that was a bit late. (In retrospect there were indeed some fundamentalists who vociferously objected to The Force in Star Wars, claiming that was some form of deviltry. *eye-roll* I had never heard that, but I know that in the 1970's I had a book called "The Force of Star Wars" and it was a look at how the Force paralleled Christian mythology. I don't remember anyone comparing it to devil worship.  www.amazon.com/force-Star-wars-Frank-Allnutt/dp/B0006X101O |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Aug 21, 2023 18:24:39 GMT -6
I wonder what they thought about KULT, which included an NPC clearly modeled on Jesus (in one of the supplements, I think). And lots of heretical Gnostic theology! I worked at a game store (Game Towne in Old Town, San Diego) when that was released. One of my coworkers quit his job over it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 18:44:39 GMT -6
As for me, with first instilled impressions intact, the Sultan Efreet on the cover of the AD&D DMG 1e, still holds court at least in the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire, it is rumored of. Trope? Reskinning wins again. But remember the classics, too. And what about homebrew? It has an orientation; didn't one make of the rules their own? The end of Abdul Alhazred, as detailed in Lovecraft’s “History of the Necronomicon,” torn apart by invisible demons on the streets of Damascus.  Yet even before calculated weapon speeds, AD&D 1e over the time period remains eminently playable.  |
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Post by machfront on Aug 22, 2023 7:06:59 GMT -6
Well…I guess even I don’t know what this seven year old thread of mine is about anymore…
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Parzival
Level 6 Magician
Is a little Stir Crazy this year...
Posts: 401
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Post by Parzival on Aug 22, 2023 14:03:42 GMT -6
It was called HeroQuest. And it’s back!  |
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Post by Piper on Aug 22, 2023 15:48:15 GMT -6
What about something like the solo adventure/intro to RPG in Mentzer’s BECMI? In my opinion, it seemed a fine introduction to the concept and the basic mechanics of the game.
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Post by machfront on Aug 23, 2023 7:15:14 GMT -6
What about something like the solo adventure/intro to RPG in Mentzer’s BECMI? In my opinion, it seemed a fine introduction to the concept and the basic mechanics of the game. Absolutely. However, again, I wasn’t at all talking about intro to D&D or ‘intro’ in general at all. Rather, yet again…as stated… a game absolutely, completely and totally NOT D&D but that would have been every bit as easy or moreso…especially even moreso. Even more importantly, strong but generic fantasy or sword & sorcery to give or exert a strong sense of this type of gaming…while also (super important here) NOT be ‘weighed down’ by association of D&D and any immediate suppositions of “OMG! It’s the Devil’s game!”. As I stated, as strong against it as my mother was, she had no issue with MERP or Top Secret/S.I. (for example). It was the NAME that was “evil”. If MERP would have been literally like FF or RISUS, I’d have lived those years in complete and total joy. But….nope. |
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Post by Piper on Aug 23, 2023 13:59:17 GMT -6
OK, then, how about this? The latest project by Janelle Jaquays of the old guard at TSR.
ETA: OK, not by her specifically, although she is a contributor to the project.
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Post by captainjapan on Aug 24, 2023 8:15:23 GMT -6
OK, then, how about this? The latest project by Janelle Jaquays of the old guard at TSR. ETA: OK, not by her specifically, although she is a contributor to the project. I hope the author of that game has a successful Kickstarter DESPITE the poorly considered gameplay tutorial he posted. It made roleplaying look about as compelling as filing taxes. And, hearing those jumbo-sized d20's hit the tabletop was like nails on a chalkboard, sheesh! |
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rayotus
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 123
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Post by rayotus on Aug 24, 2023 8:37:25 GMT -6
Not sure if y'all are familiar with what I am doing under the project name Fantasy Adventures 1974. I signed up to run some games at Gary Con this spring (as I have done many times before) and proposed a session "D&D Like It's 1974" with period rules (3LBB only) and period lead miniatures (mostly Heritage). Anyway, I made these two booklets for use at the table. The first one Characters, is the necessary parts of Men & Magic for making characters with my own rulings only where it was absolutely necessary and noted in red ink. The second is just a spell book with some of the spells reworded slightly for brevity/consistency. You can download and/or comment on the books here: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1utmVzU498oZItzNxG-ZXXYZcSU5vpW4I?usp=sharing |
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Parzival
Level 6 Magician
Is a little Stir Crazy this year...
Posts: 401
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Post by Parzival on Aug 24, 2023 8:41:52 GMT -6
Wow. That “Start Here” thing looks… as uninspiring as can possibly be.
That’s just my first glance, of course, but first glances in games are important. Right now, what I’m looking at has the take off capacity of a lead turkey.
Why does a newbie pick up a roleplaying game in the first place. Hint— it ain’t because it’s a roleplaying game.
Why did *you* pick it up all those years ago?
Answer: Because it looked fun.
Everything from the title to the cover art had some sort of “wow” factor to it that promised this game would be exciting and fun, whatever the heck it meant by “roleplaying game.”
“Dungeons & Dragons”— evocative title, and that Holmes cover art by DCS? One glance told you what this game was about— knights, wizards, dragons and treasure.
Same for the Moldvay box and the Mentzer box— the bright, bold colors, the art, the title— there was a “there” there.
This kickstarter has no “there.” It’s a marketing dud. It actually countersells what it’s trying to sell. If the newbie thinks he needs a roleplaying game to understand roleplaying games then he’s not going to buy this— indeed, he’s not going to buy any roleplaying game, because if this is needed, then obviously roleplaying games are “too hard,” and he’ll do something else. As for those drawn to the complexity of a roleplaying game, they will believe they are smart enough to learn to play a roleplaying game by starting with an actual roleplaying game in the genre of interest to them. They’ll skip this because they will (correctly) assume that they don’t need this.
So who is this for?
Obviously, it’s aimed at people who already know how to play roleplaying games, but think that others whom they know who don’t play roleplaying games can be convinced to play with this.
That ain’t gonna happen.
People aren’t attracted to a game because they think it will be easy to learn. That’s not on the radar screen of a buying decision. They are attracted by what I’ve already stated— look and literal physical feel. “Easy to learn” is a secondary consideration; it’s the thought that boosts the initial impulse of interest into a decision to buy. But that’s all it is.
Other people are attracted to play the game by friendship— they like and trust the person who bought the game— and by theme, and promises of an enjoyable experience. That’s it. Complexity will drive them away, but so will a boring presentation. And over assurances that “it will be easy, we just start with this thing which isn’t the game we’re actually going to be playing” is an omen that overwhelming boredom is about to commence.
Granted, I have not seen this game— I am only responding to the post presented. Maybe it’s chock full of theme and is a good time of engagement and hilarity.
But it doesn’t look that way. And that ain’t a trivial thing.
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rayotus
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 123
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Post by rayotus on Aug 24, 2023 9:04:06 GMT -6
Wow. That “Start Here” thing looks… as uninspiring as can possibly be. Great point. YES, I believe that the covers to AD&D, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, and Mentner Basic - or I should say Sutherland, Elmore, and Easley - or as responsible for getting people into D&D as anything you could point to. |
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Post by machfront on Aug 25, 2023 7:56:42 GMT -6
I have to agree. As a super lazy MFer even in OD&D circles, and early T&T, etc…. Covers, interior art, presentation etc, mattered and still matter even to the likes of my dumb self.
Prior to this bein brought up in this thread, id have never said so…but since it has….
Id much, much rather have a slightly tweaked FF or RISUS presented in an AD&D1E-style hardback than anything else….
Or….at least, a digest-sized, saddled-stitched, fully fleshed out game of either the above rules with the above aesthetic….
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