Technology in Science Fantasy and Sword and Planet.

[arkansan]

I've been on a sword and planet and general science fantasy kick here lately. One thing that I got to thinking about is technology in these settings, it seems like there is commonly an element of the anachronistic as well as what these days would come across as an antiquated view of future technology. So what technology wise makes a setting feel Sword and Planet to you? Personally the go to example in my head is Burrough's Barsoom. Do you see any problems in reconciling the presence of medieval or iron age technology and radium rifles so to speak? Feel the need to justify people still using swords in such a setting? Or is it just accepted without too much thinking?

[derv]

I think such things are easily accepted, since Star Wars is deeply embedded in our psyche.

Anyone that has played Traveller will also have no problem with the idea.

Not that either of these are really Sword & Planet. It's just the presence of a general idea that there are planets or cultures of different tech levels.

[arkansan]

Feb 28, 2016 19:34:01 GMT -6 derv said:

I think such things are easily accepted, since Star Wars is deeply embedded in our psyche.

Anyone that has played Traveller will also have no problem with the idea.

Not that either of these are really Sword & Planet. It's just the presence of a general idea that there are planets or cultures of different tech levels.

It is true that we are really familiar with the idea, but with both Star Wars and Traveller we sort of get built in explanations for differing levels of tech existing side by side. Space travel, of course it makes sense if people are getting around so to speak. But what about in settings where space travel is highly limited or perhaps no longer viable?

[monk]

I like how Book of the New Sun handles anachronistic technology--as if the majority is moving through a medieval phase while the elite has access to super tech. The average person doesn't seem to consider it at all strange that the ultra powerful use tech devices that are basically like magic to everyone else.

Leigh Brackett's Stark stories also contain anachronistic weapons and devices, with frequent sword/club/etc. use despite interstellar travel. There's also a strong presence of ultrahightech alien technology that is comparable to magic for all intents and purposes. I don't know why this works for me, but I've never felt it to be out of place in the least.

[monk]

In my own campaign, FWIW, ancient tech is sometimes found, as well as tinkered tech that utilizes found bits of tech. We've always had fun with it and never had a problem. Maybe because it's always presented as a fragile thing--this ONE device, that might break at any moment, is capable of turning a hundred cubic feet of rock into water/mud. When presented like that, you can see why this found tech doesn't have the capability of changing the way society functions.

[ritt]

To me, personally, this mix-and-matching of technology levels is a big part of the difference between "Science Fiction" and "Science Fantasy".

Also, heroes refusing to put on shirts (Long hair, headband, and buccaneer boots are optional).

[Finarvyn]

I like that many of these settings mix high tech and low tech. Pistols and rifles are good, but a sword in hand is more dependable more often.

I like the fact that they have different tech than our own historical development, for example flying ships alongside swordsmen on Barsoom. It gives the feel that they developed tech they needed, the way Earthlings developed tech we needed, even if those techs aren't the same. It makes them seem more "alien" even though these settings are typically human-centric.

[geoffrey]

In sword & planet stories, men are men. What red-blooded man doesn't want to hew down his enemies with his sword? It's the same reason I like the fact that my car has a manual transmission: Shifting is too much fun to give up. I want in on the action!

[arkansan]

Feb 29, 2016 7:36:56 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I like that many of these settings mix high tech and low tech. Pistols and rifles are good, but a sword in hand is more dependable more often.

I like the fact that they have different tech than our own historical development, for example flying ships alongside swordsmen on Barsoom. It gives the feel that they developed tech they needed, the way Earthlings developed tech we needed, even if those techs aren't the same. It makes them seem more "alien" even though these settings are typically human-centric.

Yeah that part of what makes Sword and Planet appealing to me. Mentioning the dependability of a sword vs a gun is actually something I took the ball and ran with for the setting I'm working on at the moment, firearms are either relics in poor repair or bad copies prone to malfunction not to mention I took the idea of a "radium rifle" quite literally and have the weapons act in a mildly radioactive fashion making prolonged exposure risky. I kind of like the idea of half mad mutated mercenary companies of riflemen.

[battlebrotherbob]

Actually 3LBB Traveller, either 77 or 81, is very Space Opera/ Sword and Planet. Stripped to this core, the assumptions are that the two exist equally. Plus in CT bladed combat works very well for boarding actions. Would want to be firing off
Plasma Guns around your delicate drives.

[ritt]

The superlative Eric John Stark stories by Leigh Brackett (Some of the best S&P ever written. Seriously. Read them NOW if you haven't yet.) explain the coexistence of swords and blasters in a neat way: The planets they take place on are the backwards and impoverished "Third world" of the vaguely Star Trek-ish galaxy.

[derv]

I think ritt has basically hit the nail on the head.

It's not really that hard to explain because it exists in real life. Maybe not radium rifles next to broad swords, but certainly AK47's next to primitive bows and blow guns in a world with nuclear capabilities. There are still indigenous people groups who are self sustaining by primitive means in many parts of the globe. Meanwhile, modern industrial societies have already traveled into space.

Historically, it wasn't that long ago that cavalry were charging horses across battlefields armed with sabers and lance while facing machine gun fire.

Likewise, modern soldiers are still trained in the use of the bayonet.

[DungeonDevil]

Mar 1, 2016 17:09:27 GMT -6 ritt said:

The superlative Eric John Stark stories by Leigh Brackett (Some of the best S&P ever written. Seriously. Read them NOW if you haven't yet.) explain the coexistence of swords and blasters in a neat way: The planets they take place on are the backwards and impoverished "Third world" of the vaguely Star Trek-ish galaxy.

Hm. This is new to me. I've lately been collecting S&P lit, and this intrigues me.
This page is confusing and doesn't help me much in looking for titles to buy. What to get first? Help!

[talysman]

There's always the possibility of a code of honor. That's mentioned in the Barsoom stories: most warriors will not draw a pistol on someone approaching them with a drawn sword. ERB makes a big deal about a couple incidents in the books where a villain doesn't obey that code of honor, a Thern draws a pistol on John Carter in The Gods of Mars, for example.

There may also be a practical reason not to rely on pistols and rifles. The books don't mention how quickly the rifles and pistols fire, or how many rounds they can fire before they need to be reloaded. I'm not even sure they can be reloaded during combat, since radium bullets explode when exposed to daylight. They probably aren't reliable weapons in close combat, so even those with no code of honor are going to squeeze off a couple shots, then draw their sword before the enemy gets too close. That Thern probably only drew his pistol because John Carter was only one person, so he figured he could shoot once or twice and be done with it. He knew it was John Freaking Carter and just watched him fighting plant-men, so he wasn't about to take him on in one-on-one sword combat.

[ritt]

Jul 13, 2016 0:47:17 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

Mar 1, 2016 17:09:27 GMT -6 ritt said:

The superlative Eric John Stark stories by Leigh Brackett (Some of the best S&P ever written. Seriously. Read them NOW if you haven't yet.) explain the coexistence of swords and blasters in a neat way: The planets they take place on are the backwards and impoverished "Third world" of the vaguely Star Trek-ish galaxy.

Hm. This is new to me. I've lately been collecting S&P lit, and this intrigues me.
This page is confusing and doesn't help me much in looking for titles to buy. What to get first? Help!

There was a Del Rey paperback entitled ERIC JOHN STARK: OUTLAW OF MARS that collected THE SECRET OF SINHARAT (Expanded from the short QUEEN OF THE MARTIAN CATACOMBS) and PEOPLE OF THE TALISMAN (Expanded from the short BLACK AMAZON OF MARS). It's pretty easy to find, and there's a Kindle edition (Although possibly under a different title. IIRC). Her sword & planet short stories also pop up in various collections.

Then there's THE BOOK OF SKAITH trilogy, where Stark leaves our solar system and travels to the "Afghanistan-meets-Barsoom-Meets-Jack Vance-meets-The California of Altman's LONG GOODBYE" world of Skaith, slowly dying a long and lonely death under the light of it's pale ginger star. THE GINGER STAR, THE HOUNDS OF SKAITH, and THE REAVERS OF SKAITH. The Mars books are really good but these three are Brackett's masterpieces.

[thorswulf]

Bladed weapons will never be anachronistic for one simple reason: They are tools. A knife can be used for more than just cutting something, or rather more to the point misused. I have used knives for impromptu screwdrivers, hammers, hatchets, and tent stakes. Not only that but knives don't have a nasty tendency of holing spaceship hulls like bullets can. Hard vacuum is a harsh teacher about that lesson.

[Malcadon]

I have been working on a Sword and Planet setting called Warlords of the Galaxy, inspired by the setting of the first-wave Masters of the Universe mini-comics, and borrows a lot of elements from many works of fiction. The core esthetic of the setting is that warriors, who are armed with swords and blasters, dress in scat beefcake/cheesecake outfits like the pin-ups of a Frank Frazetta inspired van mural — loincloths, leather straps, metal bikinis, etc. What made this work is a little device form Frank Herbert's Dune called the Holtzman Shield; a miniature force-field projector that protects the user form range weapons, allows slower melee weapons to slip through as to allow for air circulation. Without the benefit of Stillsuits to keep cool on hot worlds, people have to dress-down to to stay cool, as heavy armor and clothing would trap in body heat.

Another idea I had for running a Barsoom setting came form a largely overlooked tech form the people-are-still-trying-to-forget film Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace called the Gungan shield generator. Where the Gungan used a few large generators to cover the entire army (with individual soldiers equipped with personal energy shields), I can see smaller generators carried by a unit's "Signifer" and used as the unit's battle standard. Such a thing would be critical on the battle field, as loosing or dropping the standard would leave the whole unit open to a volley of gun fire or gunboat bombardment, thus making the Signifer, or Shield-bearer, a highly important and honored position. And giving units individual shields gives armies greater survivability, as one lucky strike would not leave the entire force vulnerable. As Barsoomian radium-rifles, fire highly explosive, photo-reactive pellets, shooting at an enemy unit at close range would be as devastating to your side, as it would be to the enemy! In this case, they would be used an artillery and fire-support weapons that can soften a unit's shield, or whip-out unprotected targets.

Yes, there would be a lot of explanation and clumsy hand-waving that comes into play when trying to mix guns and swords with little-to-nothing in the way of armor, but it is d**n well worth it to get such... cheeky results.

I hope you find this useful?

[arkansan]

Wow, this thread took on some life well after I thought it dead. Thanks for the input everyone, definitely some food for thought.

[tkdco2]

I've been thinking of using a medieval society with lightsabers and robotic horses. Other fantasy/SF elements are there as well.

[arkansan]

Jul 17, 2016 18:52:22 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I've been thinking of using a medieval society with lgihtsabers and robotic horses. Other fantasy/SF elements are there as well.

Quite doable. If you look at most sword and planet the structure of society is very much quasi-medieval.

Personally I've been working on and off on a setting that is science fantasy with a late antiquity flavor. A sort of post apocalyptic sword and pseudo science sort of thing, set on a lost colony world long after the collapse of space faring civilization has faded into legend. I actually have an in character epistolary introduction to the setting written out that's in the vein of REH "Hyborian Age" essay.

[stevemitchell]

On the Eric John Stark stories by Leigh Brackett: Paizo published THE SECRET OF SINHARAT (combined with PEOPLE OF THE TALISMAN) as part of their "Planet Stories" line back in 2007. Identical to the ERIC JOHN STARK: OUTLAW OF MARS book mentioned before, but more recent.

Not reprinted since the Ace Books versions in the 1960s, insofar as I recall, but well worth finding are Brackett's THE COMING OF THE TERRANS (a collection of stories set on Mars), THE NEMESIS FROM TERRA (another Mars book), and the wonderful THE SWORD OF RHIANNON, in which a Terran renegade travels through a time-gate a million years into the past, when Mars still had oceans--and snake-men! If Edgar Rice Burroughs was the King of Sword and Planet, Leigh Brackett was definitely the Queen.

[terje]

Here is Black Amazon of Mars by Leigh Brackett: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p8RFQ7F6PI

This is not only a fine Eric John Stark story, the talisman described in chapter 1 is also a great example of the kind of Clarke-tech "indistinguishable from magic" that I prefer in science fantasy.

[terje]

I recently bought Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny (but haven't read it yet). It seems to be an eminent example of science fantasy technology. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light

[kesher]

That looks awesome!

[Deleted]

Feb 28, 2016 17:57:52 GMT -6 arkansan said:

Feel the need to justify people still using swords in such a setting? Or is it just accepted without too much thinking?

I currently live on a planet that has remote control assassin drones, self-guided nukular missiles, tanks with explosive-reactive armor and computer controlled aiming, man-portable AA and AT missiles, laser-guided artillery, spy satellites, radar guided machine guns firing 4,500 rpm, etc.

Yet the best I can personally own is a semi-automatic rifle and a machete.

[Malcadon]

Feb 28, 2016 17:57:52 GMT -6 arkansan said:

Feel the need to justify people still using swords in such a setting? Or is it just accepted without too much thinking?

Or in the immortal words of Krusty Krab...

[murquhart72]

Presented without comment:

[tkdco2]

Jul 17, 2016 18:52:22 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I've been thinking of using a medieval society with lightsabers and robotic horses. Other fantasy/SF elements are there as well.

I'm not sure if I posted this here before. It's a battle report of a solo game I did a long time ago while playtesting a new combat system I found online. It's presented as a two-page comic book.

Part 1: www.flickr.com/photos/146623693@N08/31130452044/in/album-72157674707827933/

Part 2: www.flickr.com/photos/146623693@N08/31596819540/in/album-72157674707827933/

I hope you enjoy this story.