Blackmoor "Wizard's Duel"

[Deleted]

So, no sh*t, there I was...

1973 in one of my first Blackmoor sessions, we ran into a magic user in the dungeon.

Bob Meyer and, I think, Pete Gaylord started chanting "Wizard's Duel! Wizard's Duel!" Upon my asking Bob said that Dave used a system where enemy wizards tried to take over each others' minds.

This system obviously never made it into the Little Brown Books and after 40+ years I frankly no longer remember what happened next. I never play magic users.

SO.... have Dave's "Wizard's Duel" rules survived?

[derv]

Is this a pause for dramatic effect before you give us an answer?

Drum roll please...berumpta..berumpta...berumpta

[Deleted]

What part of "I frankly no longer remember" did I spell wrong?

[derv]

Well Michael, since you asked nicely, I can then freely tell you that AiF Book 2 has a whole section on Sorcerous Combat.

I'd give them a gander and see if they don't look familiar.

[Deleted]

Well, that's certainly interesting.

I wonder if it relates to how it was done in pre D&D days? Quite likely. Thank you.

...paging Jon Peterson, Jon Peterson to the red courtesy palantir...

[derv]

Here's some content.

"Out of tradition the magicians stand basically toe to toe, i.e. within ten feet of each other, and hurl their magically guided mental force at each other. Once the combat is initiated a wall of mental force goes up around the two magic users that may only be penetrated magically, which is against the magicians code of ethics, lasting until a winner is decided."

There is a table that is somewhat akin to Chainmail's jousting table. A magic user picks two Defense Modes and two Attack Modes. The Defense Modes run from A-G and the Atack Modes are broken into two categories of Control and Kill that each run 1-4. A magician cannot mix Control and Kill modes. The system also involves some calculations to determine how much damage each magic users can deliver and makes use of magic points.

"The object of the kill mode is to destroy the total mental defense of your adversary."

The control mode "allows you to take total control of the opposing magician."

There is also an optional system of magical fatigue that can be used.

Hope that helps.

[randyb]

Hm. The later psionic rules (whatever ones opinion of them) seem to hearken back to this.

[Otto Harkaman]

Ah! I had to puzzle out what AiF stood for and once I did I consulted the referenced book and I went Ahah!

Sounds so like out of a Katherine Kurtz Deryni novel, by chance is that where he got the idea?

[Finarvyn]

TSR did a game called "War of Wizards" which was based on Empire of the Petal Throne and so the spells aren't very D&D-like, but I wonder if the main system was similar to what Dave would have done back in the day.

It's been a long while since I last played it, but my memory tells me that there was a board simiar to a football field with those parallel lines on it. Each wizard stood on one end and launched spells. Each spell moved on the board as a wargame chit, and spells could be cast to intercept and neutralize other spells. A nifty little concept.

[Deleted]

Phil wrote War of Wizards before he met Dave, so any resemblance would be coincidental.

[Finarvyn]

Unless Dave used Phil's system for his game. (All speculation, you understand.)

[Zenopus]

There's also the counterspell rules in the Fantasy Supplement to Chainmail (pg 31 in the 3rd edition). Perhaps Dave's wizard duels were inspired/adapted from these?

If there are two or mare opposing Wizards, and the game is not a recreation of a battle found in a novel, determine which is the stronger magician (by casting dice if necessary). The stronger magician can successfully cast a counter-spell with a two dice score of 7 or better, while a weaker magician needs a score of 8, 9, 10 or 11, depending on his relative strength. A counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers.

Edit: Jon P. confirmed that these rules (in slightly different form) appeared in the 1st print of Chainmail, 1971.

[Zenopus]

Other threads worth mentioning in this context:
Fantasy Film Survey: Several posts about the wizard duel in The Raven, and Mike says: "Gary loved The Raven".
Counter-spell in OD&D: Some ideas for importing the Chainmail counter-spell rules to OD&D

[Deleted]

What I'm after is what Dave actually used prepublication.

[Zenopus]

The rules from the Chainmail Fantasy Supplement are from 1971, so that is pre-publication of D&D. I have no idea whether Dave was actually influenced by the "counter-spell" rules from Chainmail - which are a form of "wizard duelling" - but date-wise it is at least a possibility to consider.

[Deleted]

But without knowing what Dave actually did we're just blowing smoke out our butts. I' m looking for accounts of what really happened. I don't have FFC but that seems like a logical place for Dave to have talked about it.

[increment]

Doesn't ring a bell.

[Deleted]

Huh, interesting. The bit from AiF that Derf quoted above sounds like what I remember, but I'd expect AiF to be a bit more complex, having come at the early part of the "MORE RULES ARE BETTER THAN FEWER RULES" explosion.

[Dave L]

I don't know if the two of you were playing at the same time, but have you asked Greg Svenson if he remembers anything?

[havard]

Interesting. I had never heard of these duels, but I wonder if the Wizard Duelling Pits on the map of Blackmoor town are a reference to this game?

-Havard

[keolander]

A poster on the Facebook Page Old School Gamers posted this screen cap today....