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Post by Falconer on Jan 21, 2016 9:31:48 GMT -6
BTW, Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Al-Qadim are all included in the FR banner. It has been confirmed that they may be used.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 21, 2016 12:35:28 GMT -6
Falconer wrote:
Understood and I share a like mind when it comes to producing materials. That said, maybe you or Falconer can clarify this for me; if independently produced work is still legal under the open gaming license, how is this material to Blackmoor, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or whatever being sourced by WOTC for current publication? Perhaps there's some aspect of the fine print in the OGL I am failing read here?
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Post by Falconer on Jan 21, 2016 12:40:40 GMT -6
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 21, 2016 12:46:00 GMT -6
Falconer, perhaps you might cite some text from within that meets my question as you understand it and more plainly illustrates your concerns? Having read this before, it is unclear to me how this changes the latitude the OSR has enjoyed under the auspices of the OGL? As I read this, it updates the guidelines and initiates a fetching framework for anyone who wishes to contribute materials for publication by WOTC.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 21, 2016 12:56:55 GMT -6
It allows you to publish FR material, which before was not permissible.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 21, 2016 13:22:06 GMT -6
I see. Given that WOTC owns the trademarks and copyrights on all of TSR's old campaign worlds, and none are released under the OGL by which one might produce for-profit material; your concern is that other product identity like FR, will follow suit within the current WOTC initiative.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 21, 2016 13:30:59 GMT -6
My hope is that other product identity like FR, will follow suit within the current WOTC initiative.
I would love to be able to publish my own Castle Greyhawk, or my own Blackmoor sourcebook, or my own Dragonlance campaign. To sell it print-on-demand, legally, and receive 50% of the sale price.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 21, 2016 13:33:54 GMT -6
Your mechanics would have to conform to the 5E framework, correct? Or is that immaterial to your effort?
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Post by Falconer on Jan 21, 2016 13:34:58 GMT -6
That is precisely the question which we were investigating.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 21, 2016 13:40:44 GMT -6
Where in print do you see the latitude for publishing in any other system format other than the current edition. WOTC would have to revise the first OGL to include campaign specific I.P identities for earlier editions, no?
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Post by Falconer on Jan 21, 2016 14:29:32 GMT -6
I’m not super familiar with 5e, but my thought was, you could write it for your preferred system and then just at the end of the day tweak it to be superficially 5e compliant. Eg., flip the AC, just say “saving throw” for saving throws (don’t specify save vs. paralyzation or whatever), that sort of thing. Do you think WotC will go through each publication with a fine tooth comb to determine whether it is crunchy enough, and remove it from sale if it is not? Are you required to use a specific style of stat block? That’s my line of inquiry.
This is completely separate from the OGL, so, I’m not sure what you are referring to, there.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 21, 2016 14:47:50 GMT -6
I know there was a 3e version of Blackmoor; I don't know if there was anything for later editions.
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Post by kesher on Jan 22, 2016 8:22:39 GMT -6
There was also a 4e Blackmoor...
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Jan 22, 2016 8:23:19 GMT -6
Let me tell you a story about the Dungeon Masters Guild:
About 3-4 hours ago, me and some other people got an email from Gabor Lux / Melan, a Hungarian RPG writer and player many of you probably know from this very board (or others). He just learned that another Hungarian roleplayer whom I shall not name has taken one of his older modules he's originally put up on the Judges Guild website way back then, and published it on the DMG under his own name with minimal changes: the map redrawn with a different software, a single letter changed in the bad guy's name, the stats updated to 5E etc.. Nothing in the file indicates that it's based on Melan's work (and, in fact, it IS Melan's work insofar it's 99% identical. Also, it was pay-what-you-want, so the guy was open to actually making money on it.
There was a rapid and violent backlash in Hungarian RPG circles, mainly in one particular Facebook group (so far), and the guy has quickly taken the file down. As far as I know, WoTC/the DMG has not been informed of the plagiarism as of this time.
In a wider context, this raises a very troubling question: what is there to stop this sort of thing happening again? Or, in fact, all the time? As far as I can tell, WotC has absolutely no measure to prevent this sort of fraudulent plagiarism on the Dungeon Masters Guild, which I consider a very serious issue.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 22, 2016 9:58:56 GMT -6
How is that worse than selling it on normal DriveThru or Lulu?
Do you just mean it’s bad for WotC because they could be making a cut of the profit on an illegal sale?
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by premmy on Jan 22, 2016 10:15:44 GMT -6
Sure, hypothetically, it could happen anywhere; but with DMG being the big new thing for the big new edition of the biggest pnp RPG ever, and with the ease of publishing being a major selling point, it's especially susceptible.
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Post by sepulchre on Jan 22, 2016 12:18:27 GMT -6
Falconer wrote:
5E or for that matter any of WOTC products and OD&D are so vastly desperate, it is not a system with which OD&D would be well-framed
No idea, but there is a system in which work for publication is meant to be framed, according to the links.
Under the OGL one may publish work for profit without having to be concerned about the current edition WOTC is peddling. Moreover, one could produce material that is campaign specific to one of WOTC's I.Ps should the earliest OGL be updated to include campaign worlds. From your words, your 'hope' is that more campaign specific I.Ps would be added in the current WOTC platform. However, it appears to me the current idea could have been initiated through the earliest version of the OGL, rather than WOTCs current manifestation. I suspect that decision is deliberate and has consequences for anyone in the OSR who wishes to make their work available to them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 2:35:15 GMT -6
Unless they open up Blackmoor in addition to the FR… Hehehe, I would be tempted, but I think it's likely that I would resist. In 2007, Tad Kilgore and I wrote an adventure for the Blackmoor MMRPG, under a contractual agreement that was roughly comparable to what the RPGA/Living Campaigns did at the time, and what the DMsG is now offering: Meaning, you got to play with the entire IP, regardless of (most) canonic frames, you got pro editing, layout, and maps - BUT, obviously, it meant putting a lot of creativity in a project with a very limited lifespan, and possibilities for publication; and not to talk about the lack of proper compensation. - No disrespect to Tad, but those 100 days that we worked on a module that now nobody remembers, we could have well spent writing something of a more lasting value. My other work for Blackmoor was a completely different ballgame - it evolved around a game that our happy little few actively played and enjoyed, "The Last Fantasy Campaign". It was easy to spend *just a little bit more* time for it than would be usual, because we did so in good spirits. However - and here the OD&D '74 board gets its press exclusive, because I never wrote anything even remotely similar on a public forum - the reason I personally discourage people from using the new DMsG license, and, in general, doing free fan work beyond a certain level, is that we, "The Company of the Maiden", and the community at the Comeback Inn, in general, were about the only ones to do so in the aforementioned "good spirits": If I took a sip from this misty morning's coffee cup for every Blackmoor-related bullnuts I've had to deal with over the last decade, I'd die from a caffeine overdose before the day hits noon. From invidious basement dwellers sending us hatemail, to wanna-be businessmen trying to take over our operations, I think at this point, I can honestly say I've seen it all. - Without any snarkiness, I remain humbled and amazed that our small project got so big, but I certainly could have lived without all the noise on the side. The professionalization of almost of all sectors of our shared hobby, RPGs, has brought with it all the usual problems of organizational micromanagement: Or, in more vernacular terms, the smaller the issue, the more people tend to behave like a-holes. Stories like the one premmy described, do any of you really want to have to deal with them? - Like, as opposed to, what, having a lazy evening on the sofa, spending time with your families, or, in general, doing anything positive and recreational?! I don't think so. My advice to people who fancy the idea would be this: If you have a good idea, a real idea that can stand on its own legs and is not just an add-on to something someone else has written, if you really take the time to prep a, what, 100-page manuscript, then, chances are you have the time, and are able, to emancipate it from other people's IP. Or, at the very least, that you are competent enough to find a license agreement that doesn't get you in trouble, or makes you regret your contribution at some point. - So, take that chance.
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randyb
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Post by randyb on Jan 23, 2016 16:36:43 GMT -6
On further reflection, I think that WotC is counting on "fanfiction syndrome". That is, they are counting on the popularity of (at least) the FR to entice contributors who are dying to make their own mark ((esp. a canonical one) on their favorite setting. That enticement ("My view of X is now official - take that!") is powerful and may well work as intended.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 1:51:20 GMT -6
Honest question: Is FR still "a thing"? Like, I have no idea. Outside from current events ("Sword Coast Legends" garnering rather mediocre reviews), are there still people who are the kind of fans that write extensive fan fiction? - Like, I once read somewhere that the usual FR novel sells about 15.000 copies *worldwide* in the first year after its release, which is certainly nothing otherworldly.
Like, I figure, even if you joined FR during its Golden Age - which would be, somewhere between 1987 and 2008 - then that's already a lot of time to have stayed active in the hobby. Or, is WotC really aiming at the people who played 4e and 5e, exclusively - who, by definition, have no access to most older sources, and only know the most modern novels?
Mind you, FR was first published 29 years ago. I just cannot see the 40- to 50-year-old nerd writing fan fiction about Drizz't do Urden. And if the concept of such a person really exists, do you really think anybody would want to read that? -_-
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Post by Falconer on Jan 24, 2016 22:20:25 GMT -6
I wonder the same thing. It’s hard for me to get a good read on FR fandom, because my sense is no two FR fans have the same point of reference. My view of it is shaped by Fonstad’s The Forgotten Realms Atlas — a masterpiece that I have spent countless hours poring over — and the works of fiction it references (mainly Spellfire and the Icewind Dale, Finder’s Stone, and Avatar trilogies; I never could get into Moonshae), warts and all. But I know for others it’s Baldur’s Gate, or later novels, or a vast array of tabletop RPG products, or whatever.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 24, 2016 22:59:16 GMT -6
I read the original Icewind Dale trilogy, before Drizzt got all angsty, as well as the one of the Moonshae novels. I have Greenwood's Cormyr novel, but I never finished it. Still, it's my preferred campaign world. I just take the parts I like and ignore the rest.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 1:12:00 GMT -6
Just to give you an idea what we're talking about, just the FR novels at this point span, according to Wikipedia, more than 70 (!) individual series of multiple books. How the powers at Wizbro think that this could possibly still attract new customers, I don't know. FR simply seems way too overloaded to serve as a classic *mothership brand*.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 25, 2016 8:13:23 GMT -6
Star Wars has hundreds of novels and comics; there was just never any question of what its core was.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 8:24:42 GMT -6
I completely agree. - The thing is, the management of FR as a setting was as bipolar as most of TSR's/Wizbro's management of the entire line: Every few years, there was an attempt to revamp it, on some fundamental level. Too complex for me to follow it, even on a casual level, quite frankly.
The setting admittedly does a good job in incorporating new players, despite its size and history - but so do other gaming worlds that don't require me to read not just phone-book-sized manuals, but entire libraries, to get a clue of what's really going on. Of course, I have a bias - my great 80s/90s TSR novel series was the Dragonlance series, not "The Crystal Shard". DL, while less complex, was surely equally inaccessible during its later years - but it was largely consistent in tone, which FR wasn't.
Moonshae, Icewind Dale, and Myth Drannor don't really feel that much connected; might be that this is my very limited perspective, sure, but I think a lot of future work with the setting might just consist in making it less random.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 26, 2016 13:50:49 GMT -6
The good thing about FR is that it's big enough for you to pick an area and customize it to suit your needs. It also has a flavor of its own, not so vanilla. The bad thing is WOTC making everthing that happens in the novels canon in the setting. According to a few DMs in another board, that leads to rabid fanboys getting upset when the DM institutes his own changes.
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Post by dragondaddy on Jan 26, 2016 21:37:31 GMT -6
I'll stick with publishing OGL gaming material that is broadly compatible with everything else. It seems that WOTC is now looking for a few new publishers to support their games, going even to the extent of opensourcing some of their published settings and licensing derivative works.
In 2001, they had it all. I was happily publishing new d20 adventures for D&D. Then they pooched the screw and dissed their Indy gamemakers, first they rapidly re-releasing their core books twice (3.5 & 4.0). Then in 2007 by Cancelling the d20 license they hosed all the rest of their loyal Indy publishers (I had already moved on by then to greener fields) forcing them to discontinue supporting D&D. So the fans and indy game publishers went back to retro-roleplaying and created all these different OSR Games and Adventures that were highly successful and lots of fun.
Now WOTC wants their Indy Publishers back.
Not me. OGL is fine.
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oldkat
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 431
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Post by oldkat on Jan 26, 2016 21:45:55 GMT -6
Sure. I'd use it myself (OGL) if I understood it.
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Post by robertsconley on Jan 27, 2016 15:14:57 GMT -6
Just for example, who owns the right to new content, and who can decide about its use out of the license? The author in both cases. If Wizards likes your material and wants to use it they will make a separate agreement which I presume will be a work for hire with all the relevant copyrights to your original contribution assigned to them. What if I created a multiverse-traveling villain, who just happens to visit FR, and then returns to one of my worlds? Any author ucan use the material that you release in the DM's Guild provided they release their work in the DM's Guild. Otherwise they don't have permission to use your original content. What about alternate continuities? What about TSR-related crossovers, like Planescape, and Spelljammer? That question been asked of Wizards and the answer is "it's depends". I get the impression that as long it is Forgotten Realms related they will be happy with it. I think the commonsense rule is that if the adventure/supplement can be viewed as FR/(X) hybrid then likely it will remain for sale with the DM's Guild. Personally I wouldn't bother unless they explicitly say "Hey it OK to publish for X." What about possible fan fiction, as in non-gaming literature, and narrative prose? It appears that will be allowed. I don't want to sound alarmist, and I certainly welcome this turn of events, but I will also stay away from it, at least as long as the process itself is not tested extensively through its application in practice. I think the crucial point will not be now, with a first peak of publications presumably early next year, but around 2020, when a few years have past, and people start to get really creative, like it happened with the OGL, and how it spawned C&C, OSRIC, and PF. I think you are being overly alarmist. My recommendation is if your material is utterly dependent on the Forgotten Realms IP then this is your chance to make some money or recognition off of it. Because really you have no alternative. For example I have a chapter in my Majestic Wilderlands supplements that details the gods of my setting. A chapter that distills years of playing, writing, and referee my setting. As it happens it not particularly dependent on anything done by Judges Guild despite using the Wilderlands as the foundation. So I would have been trivial for me to publish as it own work. On the other hand I have created a Gods of Greyhawk article which you can see here. wilderlands.batintheattic.com/greyhawkgods.html Now the Greyhawk IP is woven heavily throughout the article. I could remove it but the result would be something entirely different. So for my Majestic Wilderlands deity material there would little for me to gain by publishing it on the DM's Guild even if I altered it to fit the Forgotten Realms. But if the Greyhawk IP was on the approved list then I could do a clean up of my Greyhawk God article, expand it a little, and publish it as a $1 product or Pay what you want. Right not I kinda slide by but putting it up at a obscure web address and share it rarely. Better examples is my Scourge of the Demon Wolf adventure or Blackmarsh. Would I gain anything by publishing either on the DM's Guild, IMO I wouldn't. But lets say I decide to spend a week or two of hobby time to crave out an area of the FR and write up a hexcrawl and publish that. This product wouldn't exist without the permission Wizards gives as part of the DM"s Guild. So it make a lot of sense for me to publish it there. Otherwise I would never be able to profit from it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 9:03:19 GMT -6
Ah, thanks for the clarification, Rob!
Now, I'm just saying, a Reddit AMA and a few blog posts, which is all we really have on the DMsG license so far, are not what I will build 100-day-long project on. Granted, if I was a Realmer, I'd probably run the risk of crashing into some legal pothole, and I certainly think the supposed basic idea - to make FR the default setting of D&D, for all fans to actively alter - is a good turn for the hobby. But as it is, no need to get into a rush just because there's another, new D&D-related license out there. Especially younger or less experienced writers can certainly find equally good publishing venues to what WotC is now offering. (Naturally, without the possibilities than full access to the FR setting may grant them.)
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