Recreating Classic RPG's Other Than D&D?

[darien]

I must say I find the idea of the Old-School Renaissance for old editions of D&D very fascinating and I am thinking of getting more and more into OD&D as well as the various retro-clones of OD&D and Basic D&D (I am familiar with AD&D and I do like it, but the more I read about OD&D and Basic D&D, the more I want to play it or DM it).

However, I wonder if anyone's tried to do fan-based remakes of other classic RPG's? Due to copyright laws, they probably cannot be sold for profit, but that's not my intent with this idea. No, these ideas for retro-clones/remakes are strictly for my own personal entertainment and I always wanted to do an old-school style version of one of my favorite RPG's, the 1991 classic Vampire: The Masquerade. I know it's not OD&D, but reading OD&D and reading about the various retro-clones of classic D&D has inspired me to do something similar for Vampire.

Yes, I know VTM is a newbie compared to the likes of D&D or Boot Hill, but it is now old enough to be considered a recent classic and it was pretty influential in RPG's in both good and bad ways. Now, that aside, what I want is a re-creation of Vampire 1e, before the metaplot took over and drove the setting into the ground.

Vampire: The Masquerade's first edition was kind of unique and was a vastly different beast from later incarnations such as the overrated and metaplot-heavy Revised Edition. The World of Darkness as it was in the early 90's was a lot more open and mysterious, and I sort of want to recreate that. Not only that, but if I remember correctly, Vampire was intended to be a distant sequel to Ars Magica, which Mark Rein-Hagen originally worked on before creating Vampire. After all, the Tremere and the Order of Hermes both originate in Ars Magica. However, by the time VTM 2e came out in late '92/early '93, Werewolf and Mage had just been released and all ties to Ars Magica were dropped.

Essentially I want to do a somewhat minimalistic remake of Vampire: The Masquerade as it existed in the run of First Edition and the earliest parts of Second Edition (1991-1993). It would be relatively self-contained and maintain some of the ties to Ars Magica, and as for the rest of the World of Darkness, well, there are references to werewolves, mages, ghosts, and faeries in the 1e books, but they aren't fully defined like they would be in their own game lines, and in the case of some creatures, would end up completely different from the 1e VTM material once they got their own game lines (most notably, Ghosts and Faeries became Wraiths and Changelings).

I only intend to draw from 1e Masquerade books for source material, and I may also look to OD&D and the retro-clones in creating this OD&D/OSR-inspired remake of Vampire: The Masquerade (the mechanics would be different from OD&D of course, but I want to make said mechanics more streamlined and less wonky than the early 90's Storyteller system that Vampire used).

Is this a worthwhile pursuit and can anyone give me some tips on how to go about this?

[tkdco2]

I think the main problem is getting the licence to produce them. The OSR was possible because WOTC allowed it via the Open Gaming Licence. As far as I know, White Wolf still owns the copyright to the original VtM game, even if the company no longer publishes it.

[scalydemon]

Greetings, this thread on DF may be a good thread for you to revive & post your query www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=68681&hilit=+masquerade

[darien]

Dec 5, 2015 22:14:52 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I think the main problem is getting the licence to produce them. The OSR was possible because WOTC allowed it via the Open Gaming Licence. As far as I know, White Wolf still owns the copyright to the original VtM game, even if the company no longer publishes it.

I know that, I'm not really seeking to officially publish anything but something more along the lines of a fan-game for personal use.

[tkdco2]

I don't know much about making a game, but here's an old site that had many fan-made rules. Maybe you can draw inspiration from them.

gamingnerdsrus.co/forum/index.php?action=pages

[oldkat]

Why not just invent your own version of a vampire centered RPG? sounds more exciting to me.

[Finarvyn]

Much of the allure of OD&D-cloning in the early OSR days was that OD&D was long out of print and expensive to find anywhere. A clone was a simple and cheap way to get something similar. Also, as tkdco2 noted, WotC put out a specific doccument that allowed for D&D 3E clones to happen, which most other companies have not done for their rules, and creative folks have taken that doccument and applied it in ways I suspect WotC never imagined. If a game is easy to find (a lot of VtM stuff on the shelves of some game stores I've visited) there isn't much need to clone it. Just play the real thing.

In the early days of DRAGON magazine folks would send in articles with house rule "variant" tweaks. Now those same folks want to "make an RPG" by taking an existing game and putting their tweaks in, but it's not really a new game. It's just the original with house rules.

I'd say if you want to play a particular system (say, Vampire or whatever) just buy it and play it and house rule it how you like.

My two coppers.

[darien]

Dec 6, 2015 6:41:48 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Much of the allure of OD&D-cloning in the early OSR days was that OD&D was long out of print and expensive to find anywhere. A clone was a simple and cheap way to get something similar. Also, as tkdco2 noted, WotC put out a specific doccument that allowed for D&D 3E clones to happen, which most other companies have not done for their rules, and creative folks have taken that doccument and applied it in ways I suspect WotC never imagined. If a game is easy to find (a lot of VtM stuff on the shelves of some game stores I've visited) there isn't much need to clone it. Just play the real thing.

In the early days of DRAGON magazine folks would send in articles with house rule "variant" tweaks. Now those same folks want to "make an RPG" by taking an existing game and putting their tweaks in, but it's not really a new game. It's just the original with house rules.

I'd say if you want to play a particular system (say, Vampire or whatever) just buy it and play it and house rule it how you like.

My two coppers.

You do bring up a good point and I do already own a copy of the Revised Edition VTM corebook, although what I am seeking is the 1e corebook (if I do as you say and just play rules-as-written Vampire and house-rule it to a point I like, I could use a house-ruled Revised or see if I can find an affordable second-hand copy of 1e online), but I also want to create an old-school inspired rules set without creating an original setting from scratch (as that is not what I want to do for this type of game, I want the clans, disciplines, and factions from the original Vampire rulebook for a reason!). Oh well.

More importantly, I also want to rebuild Masquerade as a baseline for an old-school inspired system for modern and urban fantasy settings. But I could just cut to the chase if the Masquerade remake gets me nowhere. Also, I don't so much want to create a new RPG but remake an old one. A back-to-basics reboot that takes the game to what it originally was instead of what it became.

As an aside, I do believe that had White Wolf/Onyx Path not decided to re-release VTM for its 20th Anniversary back in 2011, we could have had the possibility of OSR-styled fan-made bootleg retro-clones of early Old World of Darkness material in the long run.

[Finarvyn]

Dec 6, 2015 7:02:31 GMT -6 darien said:

Dec 6, 2015 6:41:48 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Now those same folks want to "make an RPG" by taking an existing game and putting their tweaks in, but it's not really a new game. It's just the original with house rules.

I don't so much want to create a new RPG but remake an old one. A back-to-basics reboot that takes the game to what it originally was instead of what it became.

I certainly know where you are coming from on this. My home-brewed OD&D campaigns are similar to what you describe, only for OD&D instead of VtM. For example, I prefer ascending AC to descending. Any game I run nowadays uses this tweak instead of the way the original is written.

Sounds like you have a couple of things to ponder:

(1) Where can you get a 1st printing VtM rulebook? (You might try e-bay or Noble Knight.) If I read your post correctly, you don't have this yet and it would be a key for doing a 1E game "right."

(2) What makes the 1E VtM different or "better" than the new one? How much would you have to change things to make then run the way you like?

(3) What is it about the VtM setting that you like best? Can you seperate the setting from the rules? (I.e. could you run a VtM campaign with OD&D or a clone, or does it require 1E VtM to get the feel you desire?)

I mention this because I have found that many game designers have a hard time seperating the setting from the system in their minds. If you find a set of rules you like and a setting you like, you can blend the two together even if they were never intended to go together. In other words if you like the way the World of Darkness worked before they changed things, maybe the 1E versus 2E mechanics are similar enough that it wouldn't matter to you which rules set you used. It may be the setting that attracts you, not the mechanic.

I used to have a whole bunch of 1E WoD stuff. (Vampire, Werewolf, Changeling, etc.) Thought it sounded neat but never really liked the dice pool mechanic and such. Sold it years ago becasue it was taking up shelf space and I never used any of it. If I had it I would box it and ship it to you.

[darien]

You do bring up some good points to ponder on this subject. I had considered taking VTM 1e and remaking it to use a simplified D6 system instead of the official D10 system it uses in the published version (not sure if I should use a D6 dice pool or something different though). VTM 2e could also work if you just use the corebook as from what I understand, 1993's 2e corebook is similar content-wise to 1991's 1e corebook except it is a hardcover with different artwork and some minor errata changes. The big issue is that I want to depart VTM from the baggage of Revised Edition (the third edition of VTM) which is where the metaplot sank in and radically changed the setting. However, most of 2e also had some drastic shifts in tone from 1e as well (Vampire 2e was also when the other WoD monsters started getting their own gamelines as well), although it did not have an overbearing metaplot at that point.

In my retro-remake of Vampire: The Masquerade First Edition, I intend to only use the first edition books as reference and maybe the earliest 2e material as well. Basically, I will only use VTM books from 1991 to early 1993 for the source materials. I also intend to maintain the original ties to Ars Magica (which means I will probably have to do some more research on that game's setting) and maybe establish a new tie to the original Call of Cthulhu (as while CoC was not tied to VTM like Ars Magica was, it did supposedly influence Mark Rein-Hagen in his development of Masquerade).

[Vile Traveller]

I have on-and-off worked on a clone of RuneQuest 2 (Google D100II SRD) but that's not a priority with the new Chaosium's RQ2 Kickstarter going strong. It's still not dead as a potential much-slimmed down booklet in future, though.

I am digging out my not-clone WIP of Classic Traveller / Proto-Traveller, though, as the current and upcoming versions are moving further and further fron the 1977 3LBBs.

In general I am moving away from the OGL and its restrictions to produce games that don't rely on the various SRDs. Apart from the D&D 3.5 SRD none of them are much use anyway.

[darien]

So, once I finish codifying my retro-clone (for lack of a better term) of Vampire: The Masquerade 1e, would any of you be interested in a play-by-post playtest of the setting/system? If not, I do understand.

[kesher]

I am potentially interested, if timing works out.

[snorri]

I've been thinking to an OSR verson of vampire for a while and get notes about it, but never finsihed the project.

[darien]

Maybe we can collaborate then, snorri.

[snorri]

Dec 9, 2015 11:08:00 GMT -6 darien said:

Maybe we can collaborate then, snorri.

why not

[vladtolenkov]

I'm totally with you on the "open"nature of VTM 1st ed. I stopped buying Vampire stuff pretty early on, but I've hung onto my 1st edition stuff though. I've still got my 1st ed. rulebook, player's guide, and storyteller's screen.

It was a fun game. I don't know much about what it became later though. . .

[ffilz]

Dec 6, 2015 19:24:57 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I am digging out my not-clone WIP of Classic Traveller / Proto-Traveller, though, as the current and upcoming versions are moving further and further fron the 1977 3LBBs.

Though 1977 Traveller is still very much available...

For $35 you get a CD-ROM with all of the GDW rules sets, adventures, supplements, etc. for Classic Traveller. The CD-ROM includes 1977 Traveller, 1981 Traveller, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller. For this reason, it seems like an actual Traveller clone would not have too much value other than as a venue to be able to publish a unified rulebook with house rules edited right in.

Rather than endless clones, what I would really like to see is more folks making an effort to make their out of print RPGs and supplements available as PDF.

Frank

[Vile Traveller]

Oh, I have all those CD-ROMs. The reason I said "not-clone" is because I find even '77 Classic Traveller is still too clunky for my tastes, especially in the combat tables department. My version is getting to be even slimmer.

With classic Traveller, D&D, and now RuneQuest being available again (including the Judges Guild PDFs) it looks like a lot of bases are covered!

[darien]

I'm thinking of doing a rough draft of my retro-clone rules for Vampire: The Masquerade 1e and running a Play-by-Post game on these forums, if it's okay with everyone.

[Falconer]

Google “Star Wars REUP” — a fan-made redo of the old WEG rules.

[LouGoncey]

This is something that was created to 'mimic' the WoD gameplay:

Moderator note: Due to board storage limits, attached pdf replaced with link to Internet Archive, where the document can be found: archive.org/details/OpeningTheDarkSRD

[derv]

Feb 16, 2016 22:15:41 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Google “Star Wars REUP” — a fan-made redo of the old WEG rules.

Great suggestion Falconer. This product is well done.

[darien]

Update!

I just got myself a copy of the 1e Vampire: The Masquerade core rulebook on hard copy off of Amazon, and now I want to revisit this idea and possibly run a play-by-post game as well. So, watch this space!

[tkdco2]

I have the five main books of the Old World of Darkness, although I never got to play them, except for one short session of Vampire (which my group didn't finish). I had been planning to use that material along with the unofficial Highlander supplement for a campaign.

[darien]

Personally, I intend to use Vampire 1e and maybe Werewolf 1e as well. I want to try and keep that old-school 1990's 1e feel.

[tkdco2]

Sounds good. If you're interested in adding Highlander-style immortals, you can find the rules here. The supplement is unofficial, of course, but I heard it was pretty popular.

[darien]

I remember the Highlander supplement, I am a fan of Senshi: The Merchandising, an online fan supplement that added Sailor Moon and other 90's anime to the Classic World of Darkness.

[Falconer]

Feb 16, 2016 22:15:41 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Google “Star Wars REUP” — a fan-made redo of the old WEG rules.

That was based on the SW 2nd Edition rules; now there is one based on the 1st Edition rules called Star Wars Classic Adventures: www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=163078#163078

[Deleted]

I really like 1e.

IIRC, Vampires can survive a good bit out in the sun, I don't like how they die instantly in the newer editions, and since it's on the rules it's hard to Referee it differently to modern players.
VTM is more like a Anne Rice and Nosferatu game you know? Not in all myths vampires die in the sun.
In fact I like a lot how in Bram Stoker's Dracula he walks in the Sun and is even stronger at day.
This would help a lot I think, sometimes my players think the night doesn't end, and there is a lot of things they can't do because it's closed at night so they need to rely on NPC's...

There is something that I really like as well, other WOD creatures such as Mage and Werewolf uses Vampire Disciplines instead of their own rules system.
I like that! One of the flaws of Classic WOD is how things are absurdly unbalanced and hard to use different WOD creatures together, but using the old edition rules, it's just a matter of reusing the same Vampire rules applying it to different creatures.
I can see how "magicka" can be pretty much some Vampire disciplines hacked, and a werewolf is a creature with potence, animalism, protean, fortitude... no need to create a entire new system for this.

But I'm the minimalist that prefer OD&D and Chainmail, so I'm biased about simplifying rules.

I would simplify the attributes, maybe exclude skills and use a pool of d6 looking for 5's and 6's instead of d10 an that's it.

I think all the players need is some attributes, if any, and the disciplines, the rest is about roleplaying it through or looking at the character background to know if it's know how to do something.

Sorry to revive the thread, I will consider it's ok since we're talking about the Undead.