Wanderer

[Finarvyn]

Jul 26, 2017 17:08:26 GMT -6 arkansan said:

If you don't mind me asking Finarvyn what became of your work on this? Seems like fascinating idea.

Sadly, I haven't played with Wanderer rules for many years. Like many of my projects, it starts with a bang and then slowly fades away as my attention turns to other things. I may have some stuff floating around on my backup drives, but it's been way off of my radar for quite some time so not much to report.

I can poke around to see what I have, however.

[arkansan]

I understand, my hard drive is cratered with forgotten or abandoned projects.

I can poke around to see what I have, however.

That would be most appreciated!

[coffee]

Jul 27, 2017 16:08:31 GMT -6 arkansan said:

I understand, my hard drive is cratered with forgotten or abandoned projects.

I can poke around to see what I have, however.

That would be most appreciated!

Yeah, I would appreciate it, too!

[foxroe]

Me three.

[Thorulfr]

I keep circling around back to it - I found an interesting paper analyzing the shipping prices in Diocletian's Edict on Prices that makes it all very rational and adaptable, but I keep butting my head against ship design.

[Thorulfr]

What I'm poking at now are the prices of things - This is more important than you'd think, because this has effects all through the system: Mustering out benefits, equipment prices, ship construction, ship economics, employee pay... Traveller is amazingly well-integrated.

[Thorulfr]

I'm probably over-thinking things (then again, that's my idea of fun), but I have been trying to make some rational sense of prices and economics for the game. If you look online, there are a number of articles and documents with titles something like "What Things Cost in Ancient Rome", most based on Diocletian's Edict from 301 C.E. One thing about this document that a lot of these articles overlook is that the prices are not reported in actual terms - 'x' price is not 'x' number of coins, but rather a fictitious currency called "denarius communis."
Now, using denarii as my "Credit" is a good thing - the very name 'denarius' has carried over as 'dinar', 'dirhem', 'denier', and even in pre-decimal England, the abbreviation for one penny (which in Anglo-Saxon times was a small silver coin about the size of a Roman denarius) was "d", so it is very close to the Traveller idea of a single, universal monetary unit. The denarius communis, however, is not a denarius, or at least not the denarius that players would like.
The reason that the prices in the Edit are listed in this fictitious currency was because inflation was a serious problem, and Diocletian was trying to introduce a currency reform. In theory, if prices rose due to the currency du jour losing value, all they would have to do was to change the exchange rate between the 'denarius communis' and the actual coins, and you were good to go.
The actual Denarius, however - ostensibly what these prices were being reported as - was practically worthless. Back in the time of Augustus and those other folks you may remember from "I, Claudius", the denarius was a small coin of fine silver, weighing a bit over 4 grams. Very similar to the earlier Greek drachma, or the pennies of Charlemagne or the Anglo-Saxon kings. The thing to keep in mind about these pennies is that they were WORTH something. Despite what "penny" had come to mean today, one of those coins was a lot closer in buying power to the 20-dollar bill you pull out of the ATM, or the 'tenner' you drop at the pub. In Classical Greek times, a silver drachma was the daily pay of a rower on a trireme, who were well-trained professionals performing a difficult and hazardous job.
To keep up with their spending habits, however, later emperors did what many politicians have done when they needed to make money: made the coins more cheaply and pocketed the difference. The denarius was made smaller, or mixed with base metals, until by the "Crisis of the Third Century" it was a bronze coin with a little silver plating, and by Diocletian's time hadn't even been minted for years, rather like the Canadian 1 cent coin. He was hoping to reform the currency by devaluing the denarius and introducing a new set coins, which included the "Argentum" (which was a small silver coin weighing a bit over 4 grams...huh, that sounds familiar, doesn't it?) This Argentum was worth 100 Denarii cummunis, so if I want to use the prices in the Edict with silver coins that the players could understand, I'd need to divide all the prices in the document by 100, which makes many of them unworkably small. For example, the daily wage of a laborer would be 1/4 of a denarius. Don't spend it all in one place, kid.
The easy route would be to say "Screw it - it's all just fantasy, anyway" and take the DC to be actual denarii, but that makes some of the prices unworkably LARGE. That laborer, for example, now makes 25 denarii a day, which makes sense if your economy is based on a nearly-worthless copper coin pretending to be silver, but not if the coins are to be imagined as 20-dollar bills.
I could also say "Screw it - it's all just fantasy" and throw out the Edict entirely, but what is fun about pre-modern economics is how much things have changed. Things that were commonplace are now expensive because they require skilled labor, but many previously-expensive things are cheap today because the manufacturing has been completely mechanized. There is a reason that looters would steal cloth: dyed cloth enormously expensive when you consider just how much labor goes into making it when your tools are the drop spindle and the hand loom.
Roman coinage also had a strange subdivisions, too: anyone who watched HBO's Rome got to hear Caesar fling large numbers of sesterti about as bribes. However, there were only 4 sesterci to a denarius, so that is not as useful as, for example, the pre-decimal British system (also used by AD&D) or 12 pennies (copper) to the shilling (silver). There were also a set of even smaller coins called the "As" or "Ase," and various subdivisions thereof. There were 2 and a half asses to the sestertii or 10 to the denarius.
Yes, I said asses. That's the plural form.
Stop giggling.
Thus the problem: telling the average batch of 12-year old players something costs "5 asses" is just asking for trouble.

After going back and forth, watching the wrestling match between the "historical accuracy" and the "it's just a game" factions in my brain, my new trial solution is to CALL the ase a 'sestertius' to avoid the endless rude jokes, and make the DC in the Edict equal to that. Thus the listed prices are divided by 10, and are reported as denarii using decimals to make things easy on the books. Thus that laborer gets 25 sesterti, or 2.5 denarii, for his day's work. Let me play with this for a while and see how the numbers work out.


By the way, the pre-decimal system of 240 pennies to the pound of silver makes a lot more sense than it seems to our modern 'divide everything by ten' mentality. 240 could be evenly divided in 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/8, 1/10, 1/12, 1/15, 1/16, 1/20, 1/24, 1/30, 1/40, 1/48, 1/60, 1/80, and 1/120 parts. Makes it easy to make change.

[Thorulfr]

Thinking about the Bronze Age and the transition to the Iron Age: contrary to popular belief, iron - especially at the beginning - isn't any stronger or tougher than bronze. Tales of iron blades slicing through bronze helmets or shattering bronze swords are just myths. Tests done on reproductions and on actual late bronze age and early iron age artifacts have shown that the bronze weapons are just as sharp and durable as the early iron age weapons. Bronze is also more likely to bend rather than break, and can be quickly bent back into shape. Bronze can even be "tempered" after a fashion: it work-hardens, so by carefully hammering out the edge of a blade, it stretches and hardens until it can take a keen edge.

The crucial advantage that Iron had over bronze was availability: bronze production was limited by the amount of tin (or arsenic) available. Iron ore is practically everywhere, and all you need to charcoal to reduce the ore into metal. While bronze armor and swords were limited to the wealthy elite, once iron production got going, even the poorest peasant could have a few iron tools. And once those tools became widely available, production of everything else could ramp up. I have read that in the time of Augustus, the average family had more copper and bronze - let alone iron - objects than people in a comparably wealthy family in Egypt under the Pharaohs.

All this points out some serious complications for the economic system. For example, iron was available even in the bronze age: the Hittites supplied iron daggers to the Pharaoh, but these were made from meteoric iron, and were fabulously expensive. Iron was more valuable than gold. Once iron smelting becomes commonplace, however, the price plummets to a fraction of a percent of what it once was, and even the price of bronze starts to drop. Before you get any ideas, though, if you have two cities, one with a "bronze age" tech level, and one with an "iron age" level, you can't have a comfortable little economic perpetual-motion machine where you buy iron in one and then sell it at an unbelievable profit in the other. The market immediately floods and the prices stabilize at a new level.

From a practical standpoint, though, it makes is very difficult to have a "Book 1" price list of weapons and armor because they are going to change wildly between tech levels.

[robertsconley]

Jul 18, 2018 11:19:42 GMT -6 Thorulfr said:

From a practical standpoint, though, it makes is very difficult to have a "Book 1" price list of weapons and armor because they are going to change wildly between tech levels.

Just focus on something gamable and representative rather than strictly historically accurate. Also keep in mind there are different kinds of iron i.e. wrought iron, steel, and cast iron that game in widespread use in different time periods. I think would be sufficent to note the cost of bronze, wrought iron, and steel and then state at earlier tech levels wrought iron and steel costs are multiplied by a certain factor.

[Thorulfr]

Jul 19, 2018 11:47:56 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Just focus on something gamable and representative rather than strictly historically accurate. Also keep in mind there are different kinds of iron i.e. wrought iron, steel, and cast iron that game in widespread use in different time periods. I think would be sufficent to note the cost of bronze, wrought iron, and steel and then state at earlier tech levels wrought iron and steel costs are multiplied by a certain factor.

OK, I put in a footnote that below a certain TL, Bronze triples in price, and meteoric iron (if available) is 20x the price. I also bought the "Medieval Handgonne" book from Osprey, and they have some handy notes on the relative prices of steel, lead, and gunpowder, so I was able to rough out some prices for early firearms, in case the Referee was keen to do a "Solomon Kane" of "Lord Kalvan or Otherwhen" campaign.

I also needed to make the combat ranges a little more granular, since the main mode of combat is going to be hand-to-hand, rather than at pistol- and rifle- range.

The ship benefit for the Merchant career is basically stubbed in - I need to refine it as I work on the Ship rules for "Book 2."


Now I need to find some local gamers to help test out the combat rules.

[hamurai]

Necromancy! \m/

So, is there still a Wanderer document floating around? I've been looking for one since I can't find the file I once had, but so far, my search has been in vain. Before I waste more time I thought I'd ask.

[flailsnail75]

I would gladly pay for the fully fleshed out and ready to game with Wanderer booklets if anybody knows where they are, if such a thing even exists yet.

[Thorulfr]

Jul 8, 2020 23:33:55 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Necromancy! \m/

So, is there still a Wanderer document floating around? I've been looking for one since I can't find the file I once had, but so far, my search has been in vain. Before I waste more time I thought I'd ask.

Dec 12, 2020 12:35:18 GMT -6 flailsnail75 said:

I would gladly pay for the fully fleshed out and ready to game with Wanderer booklets if anybody knows where they are, if such a thing even exists yet.

Well, if you are looking for something fleshed out and ready to go, and you are OK with using early-imperial Rome as your background, look for the "Mercator" version of Traveller that is probably still floating about.

If you are willing to help me playtest, I can shoot you a copy of the '90% done' Book 1 rules I've been messing around with. Books 2 and 3 are only about 10% done, so they are not in any fit state to look at for the moment.

[hamurai]

Thanks for the suggestion!

I've come to use Worlds Apart (free version here: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/105341/Worlds-Apart--Free-Version ) or The Sword of Cepheus (paid; www.drivethrurpg.com/product/304840/The-Sword-of-Cepheus ) which both do a good job.

Thanks for the offer, but we don't play in a Roman setting. The majority of our group prefers classic fantasy or middle ages England and Germany with fantasy elements.

[Alex Schroeder]

A year later…
I've been working on a super simple variant in German to play one-on-one. If anybody's interested.
Helmbarten are the rules:
Helmbarten.pdf
Farnthal is basically a sort of session report + actual play or whatever people call it these days:
Farnthal.pdf
And the git repository with this and other 2d6 variants in both English and German:
git repository

[hamurai]

Hey Alex, I like the simple system, sort of a cross between Traveller and Fighting Fantasy I'd say. One question, though: Do you use any rules for armour at all? Simplified damage is cool, but since 2d6 can easily knock you out in one blow, armour would be really useful.

Personally, I'd probably use 2d6 damage with armour soaking a random 1d6. Depending on the type of armour, they might be able to soak 5-15 damage before becoming too damaged to be useful. With a shield, use 2d6 and use the highest roll. Two-handed weapons do 3d6 damage.

[Alex Schroeder]

Currently I am not using any armour at all, but there also haven't been any big fights…

Then again, there's now an English translation:
Halberts.pdf
And a starting scenario:
Altenstein.pdf
And a small number of blog posts:
Blog posts

[Deleted]

I like this, the setting generator linked to from your blog is fun too.

[tombowings]

For the past year, I have been working on my own version of the "Wanderer" concept.

Over several iterations, I have found that I have needed to take some liberties with certain game mechanics. I'm also still messing around with the magic system. Here are a couple of excerpts. I'm hoping to have a real first draft of the player-facing rules finished by September.






***





***

[rhialto]

Looks very interesting, I hope you''ll share the final draft when done. From the excerpts it seems you're familiar with contemporary iterations of Classic Traveller (Cepheus Engine, Mongoose). And since you're working on the magic system have you looked at Fast Magic from Zozer Games, or Sword of Cepheus? Have you looked at Mercator, Westlands or Worlds Apart?

[tombowings]

Jun 28, 2024 4:22:26 GMT -6 rhialto said:

Looks very interesting, I hope you''ll share the final draft when done. From the excerpts it seems you're familiar with contemporary iterations of Classic Traveller (Cepheus Engine, Mongoose). And since you're working on the magic system have you looked at Fast Magic from Zozer Games, or Sword of Cepheus? Have you looked at Mercator, Westlands or Worlds Apart?

Yes. I will be posting more as I approach completion. I've been iterating the skill list and the presentation of careers for a year now. It's finally solidified. I finished my first draft of the weapon mechanics this morning. Next up is the combat sequence.

As far as more contemporary version of the game, I've ever looked into them. I'm surprised to hear there are similarities. I haven't hear of those games you mentioned, but I'll take a look. Right now, the magic system is conceptionally a hybrid between RuneQuest combat magic and the system used in Morrowind, but I'm always eager to discover and concider new ideas.

[rhialto]

Jun 28, 2024 11:24:19 GMT -6 tombowings said:

Jun 28, 2024 4:22:26 GMT -6 rhialto said:

Looks very interesting, I hope you''ll share the final draft when done. From the excerpts it seems you're familiar with contemporary iterations of Classic Traveller (Cepheus Engine, Mongoose). And since you're working on the magic system have you looked at Fast Magic from Zozer Games, or Sword of Cepheus? Have you looked at Mercator, Westlands or Worlds Apart?

Yes. I will be posting more as I approach completion. I've been iterating the skill list and the presentation of careers for a year now. It's finally solidified. I finished my first draft of the weapon mechanics this morning. Next up is the combat sequence.

As far as more contemporary version of the game, I've ever looked into them. I'm surprised to hear there are similarities. I haven't hear of those games you mentioned, but I'll take a look. Right now, the magic system is conceptionally a hybrid between RuneQuest combat magic and the system used in Morrowind, but I'm always eager to discover and concider new ideas.

To be clear: the excerpt is closest to Classic Traveller, and of those other games I mentioned Cepheus Engine (based on the Mongoose Traveller 1e SRD) is closest to Classic Traveller. Sword of Cepheus is Cepheus Engine redone for sword & sorcery style gaming, and has an interesting magic system (and, as with CE, an SRD). Fast Magic has a very lightweight magic system.

Mercator is Classic Traveller reimagined for ancient Rome, and is free too: see here for lots of free Classic Traveller supplements (as well as Paul's other games).