Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 12:28:07 GMT -6
I've been pondering the original movies as well as watching a bunch of old Kurosawa samurai movies and I've been surprised just how much the representation of the Jedi changed from the first three movies to the prequels. Here's what I'm thinking for getting a truer OT version of Jedi.
1. There is no Jedi Council. The Jedi are an informal group of like-minded individuals. Each doing there part to help preserve justice in the galaxy. They aren't, as shown in the prequels, a quasi-military organization ordering Jedi around the galaxy on all sorts of political operations.
An example of what I'm thinking is in Seven Samurai. Here, a group of samurai decide to help some villagers with their bandit problem. Each samurai is there of his own free will and, while Shimada is in charge, that is only because the other samurai respect his wisdom and experience.
2. "Master" is an honorific, not a rank. You don't have to pass a test and be awarded the rank of Master. Instead, if you choose to train an apprentice in the ways of the force, as Obi-wan did with Annakin, your student will call you "Master" as a sign of respect. Each Jedi can choose to train an apprentice if he feels he's ready for such a task.
Luke refers to himself as a Jedi, not because he's trying to create a new Jedi Order, but because he has dedicated himself to the Jedi philosophy. This makes Jedis more like the religion as it's referred to in SW.
3. A lightsaber is a training tool, not a issued piece of equipment. Obi-wan introduces Luke to the Force through the lightsaber. This is similar to how people today use eastern martial arts to practice discipline and concentration. The radio drama has an extended scene of Luke learning various forms and stances before tackling the remote. The lightsaber is not just a weapon, but the primary way that Jedi train and get in touch with the Force.
But, more importantly, each Force using tradition uses different methods of training. The Jedi usually use lightsabers which is why it is looked down upon by the Emperor as a crutch (as discipline is the opposite of what he wants as a dark sider). Yoda, as a counter example, doesn't use a lightsaber for his training and relies on different methods, such as physical excertion, to acheive the same end.
4. There are no Dark Side powers. The Emperor uses lightning because he find it to be more effective than any weapon. That and the fact that it causes great pain which he seems to get off to. Using a particular power doesn't give you "Dark Side points", but using the Force for personal gain or out of hatred does.
5. When not saving the galaxy, Jedi live ordinary lives. Because being a Jedi is a voluntary thing, each Jedi can choose his own way of life, usually but not always simplistic. General Kenobi, for example, served the house of Alderaan as an actual member of the military. With all the responsibilities and duties that implies. His Jedi status just gave him added military insight.
This is one of the main reasons that the Jedi became almost forgotten by the time of the first movie.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Oct 27, 2015 16:36:58 GMT -6
I tend to agree with those. Jedi are basically the same as knights ("Jedi Knights"), riding around the countryside righting wrongs and serving lords. However, I'd say that light saber isn't just a training tool, but the Jedi's preferred weapon. However: not all Jedi use physical weapons.
But most important of all:
6. Jedi do not wear the robes of a Tattooine hermit!
|
|
mindcontrolsquid
Level 4 Theurgist
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man..."
Posts: 118 
|
Post by mindcontrolsquid on Oct 27, 2015 16:53:52 GMT -6
Agreed. It did always bug me that Yoda used a lightsaber in the prequels; he always seemed to be beyond the need for such things.
Also agreed, although I imagine the Jedi might have had some sort of dress code or means of immediately visually distinguishing themselves as Jedi (unless they were incognito, of course). After all, if they were known throughout the galaxy as peacekeepers, one would assume that they would want to make their presence and authority known to those whom they were policing, right?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 7:35:57 GMT -6
Also agreed, although I imagine the Jedi might have had some sort of dress code or means of immediately visually distinguishing themselves as Jedi (unless they were incognito, of course). After all, if they were known throughout the galaxy as peacekeepers, one would assume that they would want to make their presence and authority known to those whom they were policing, right? I'm leaning towards there not being a Jedi uniform as I have no idea what it would be like if there was one. It certainly isn't what Obi-wan or Yoda wore as they were in hiding. Luke's Jedi outfit in RotJ was black to show his being seduced by the Dark Side so that's out. We aren't left with much else besides the Jedi's apparent love for hooded robes. But the Emperor uses a hooded robe as well. |
|
mindcontrolsquid
Level 4 Theurgist
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man..."
Posts: 118
|
Post by mindcontrolsquid on Oct 28, 2015 9:12:10 GMT -6
Also agreed, although I imagine the Jedi might have had some sort of dress code or means of immediately visually distinguishing themselves as Jedi (unless they were incognito, of course). After all, if they were known throughout the galaxy as peacekeepers, one would assume that they would want to make their presence and authority known to those whom they were policing, right? I'm leaning towards there not being a Jedi uniform as I have no idea what it would be like if there was one. It certainly isn't what Obi-wan or Yoda wore as they were in hiding. Luke's Jedi outfit in RotJ was black to show his being seduced by the Dark Side so that's out. We aren't left with much else besides the Jedi's apparent love for hooded robes. But the Emperor uses a hooded robe as well. Well, it needn't be a full uniform or anything like that. Perhaps simply a badge or a symbol of some sort. Although I must admit that I find the robes do have a certain je ne sais quoi to them... |
|
|
|
Post by Porphyre on Oct 29, 2015 2:11:21 GMT -6
6. Jedi do not wear the robes of a Tattooine hermit! The problem is that the assuption that Obi-Wan's robes = jedi robes is introduced at the very end of the original trilogy: when Anakin (and i mean david Prowse) joins Yoda and Obi Wan as a "Force ghost", he's wearing a similar outfit. One could argue that he's wearing it just because he's a native from Tatooine , but it probably did a lot to ingrain in people's mind the notion that the brown robes "are" the jedi garb (plus as mindcontrlsquid put it, brown robes have something, probably because they connect with monastic orders). One humoristic explanation that I did stumble upon is that , when Obi-Wan had to go in hiding, he naturally chose the only planet of the galaxy were all people wear the traditionnal jedi cloth ! |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Oct 29, 2015 6:37:49 GMT -6
If I went into hiding from an evil empire bent on my extermination, whilst simultaneously keeping a surreptitious eye on the empire's lieutenant's son, I wouldn't wear my organization's famous uniform as my daily outfit.
(I'd also pick a less obvious pseudonym.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Porphyre on Oct 29, 2015 7:12:55 GMT -6
If I went into hiding from an evil empire bent on my extermination, whilst simultaneously keeping a surreptitious eye on the empire's lieutenant's son, I wouldn't wear my organization's famous uniform as my daily outfit. (I'd also pick a less obvious pseudonym.) And I wouldn't probably hide the boy in his father's closest family member ! (but well, Dumbledore dis the same  ...) |
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Oct 29, 2015 12:59:43 GMT -6
I'm not really into Star Wars and all its mythology, in fact I've said before I don't really enjoy it all that much. But I agree that all those points seem more in line with the original movies and were more or less what I thought was going on with the Jedi. AND I think it's a far better interpretation than the later one of a formal militaristic mystical order. In other words, I prefer the examples of medieval knights taking Christian oaths and maybe becoming monks when past their fighting prime, or samurai studying Zen and becoming more devoted to it in their old age, instead of Jedi as Knights Templar. Also agreed, although I imagine the Jedi might have had some sort of dress code or means of immediately visually distinguishing themselves as Jedi (unless they were incognito, of course). After all, if they were known throughout the galaxy as peacekeepers, one would assume that they would want to make their presence and authority known to those whom they were policing, right? Maybe they just feel a stirring in the Force when around another Jedi? Jedi are in a way based on Lensmen, but they don't have an actual Lens armband to help identify them. Just the powers that the Lens bestows. They ought to be able to sense such ability, and that seems to play a major roll in the original movies. But in contrast, non-Jedi don't seem to be able to identify Jedi except by reputation. Compare that to the prequels, where Jedi are identified either by uniform or by testing. They seem to be trying to get back to a full Lensmen-ish interpretation, with light sabers standing in for the Lens as a symbol of a Jedi's power. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 8:57:29 GMT -6
A question about Yoda. When I first saw the movies, I assumed that Degobah was Yoda's home. That Yoda was a creature that evolved on Degobah. He was a frog-man living in a swamp. That in the pre-OT years, the other Jedi would send their students to Degobah to see Yoda as part of their training. Vader didn't know about Yoda because Obi-wan never sent him there as he felt he could train Vader well enough himself.
So, was there any indication in ESB or the stuff surrounding ESB (novels, toys, comics) to indicate that Yoda was there "in hiding".
|
|
|
|
Post by geoffrey on Jan 4, 2016 11:19:44 GMT -6
A question about Yoda. When I first saw the movies, I assumed that Degobah was Yoda's home. That Yoda was a creature that evolved on Degobah. He was a frog-man living in a swamp. That in the pre-OT years, the other Jedi would send their students to Degobah to see Yoda as part of their training. Vader didn't know about Yoda because Obi-wan never sent him there as he felt he could train Vader well enough himself. So, was there any indication in ESB or the stuff surrounding ESB (novels, toys, comics) to indicate that Yoda was there "in hiding". I thought the same thing. I for one am not aware of any stuff from the 1980s indicating that Yoda was NOT a Dagobah native. |
|
|
|
Post by xerxez on Jan 4, 2016 12:32:08 GMT -6
Would have to agree with the original post on nearly every point, but didn't understand why you say no Dark Side powers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Malcadon on Jan 4, 2016 17:02:26 GMT -6
OK, this is mostly the beef I have with what was established in the prequels.
7. Jedi are not kidnappers! As noted above, Jedi should be able to have families, producing and raising baby Jedi of their own. I never like the idea of the order that was always presented as "the greatest good-guys in the galaxy" having to take babies from their parents in order to raise them a force-sensitive monks, so they wont grow into rouge Sith. If anything, Jedi should travel the galaxy to find force-sensitive youths and encourage them to become Jedi Knights.
8. The Sith are not limited to two members. It was noted in the books that the Sith are so evil and power-hungry, that "Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice.", as they keep conspiring to kill each other. That is BS! Even the most bloodthirsty tin-god despot would cooperate with political rivals to reach his desired goals. The funny thing is that even with that notion in place, canonically, Sith Lords tend to train more than one apprentice, who are unaware of each other, and the apprentices tend to have their own secret apprentice. I rather have the Sith operate as numerous secretive enclaves of warlocks or cultists, with the Sith Order finally taking enough power to takeover the Republic.
9. Turning to the Dark Side is not bad for your complexion. Yes, the Emperor looked like an old man's shriveled testicles due to how his force-lightning was thrown back on him, but beyond that, its been widely made-out that too much time being on the Dark Side of the Force would make your eyes glow yellow and make you look like you bobbed for apples in a tank of acid, then covering it up tribal tattoos, or at the vary least—in Anakin's case—make you look like you have not slept in weeks, while listing to nothing but Linkin Park on loop. Being ugly/disfigured while on the Dark Side should be the result of personal/karmic folly by your our actions (or lack thereof); not just some side-effect you hear on a prescription drug commercial!
10. There should not be anything like "The boy... His Midi-chlorian count is... OVER NINE-THOUSAND!!!" The Force should be a supernatural force, beyond the scope and measure of scientific understanding. The fact that there is a way to measure it like a drug-test, or that there is some sort of academic understanding undermines the mystery and other-worldliness of it all! The only way anyone should be able to "read" someones Force power is through the sixth-senses of a force-sensitive person via "The Force is strong with this one."
11. You shouldn't have to be born "force-sensitive" in order to become a Force-User. (OK, this is just head-canon stuff.) It was established that you must be born with the talent to use the force to be a Force-User, but I never liked that. As a kid, I always felt that the ability to sense and use the Force should be something you can train to do with years of training and the discipline to transcend one's own physical senses in order to perceive and interact with it. From there, you should be able to see through time and space, and to contact anyone living or dead, even if they are not "one with the Force." This is also good form a narrative and role-playing stand-point, as it means that anyone with the time and dedication (or just a cheesy '80s movie montage) could become a great Force-User.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2016 11:14:40 GMT -6
Would have to agree with the original post on nearly every point, but didn't understand why you say no Dark Side powers. This is mostly in reference to the various games where if you kill someone using the force to throw him off a cliff, you're fine, but if you kill him by using Force Choke, you're getting a Dark Side point. 7. Jedi are not kidnappers! As noted above, Jedi should be able to have families, producing and raising baby Jedi of their own. I never like the idea of the order that was always presented as "the greatest good-guys in the galaxy" having to take babies from their parents in order to raise them a force-sensitive monks, so they wont grow into rouge Sith. If anything, Jedi should travel the galaxy to find force-sensitive youths and encourage them to become Jedi Knights. I dislike this for the reasons you mention but also for what it says about the SW galaxy. If, as Qui-gon implies, every child is tested and, if their count is high enough, sent to the Jedi Academy for training, then either there should be thousands of baby Jedi in the temple or else being a Jedi is exceedingly rare. To put it in perspective, there are more child wizards attending Hogwarts than there are child force users in the entire Galaxy. And Hogwarts is just one school on one planet. There are thousands of densely populated planets in the SW galaxy. If force sensitivity is as rare as it appears that it is, then the Jedi's refusal to allow Jedi to have children is downright criminal. They are effectively breeding the Force out of the galaxy. |
|
randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
|
Post by randyb on Jan 5, 2016 16:00:39 GMT -6
If force sensitivity is as rare as it appears that it is, then the Jedi's refusal to allow Jedi to have children is downright criminal. They are effectively breeding the Force out of the galaxy. If and only if force sensitivity is exclusively genetic in origin. Given that the Force, while strictly speaking not a person, is referred to as having a "will" and depicted as acting on its own, anyone could be force sensitive if the Force so willed it. And the Jedi prohibition on marriage and children always struck me as a measure taken against the emergence of a ruling or noble class based solely on force sensitivity - the chief and negative example of this being the role of the Sith in their eponymous Empire during its various incarnations. This is, of course, an EU/Legends lore reference, which falls outside of the primary thesis of this thread. |
|
|
|
Post by Achán hiNidráne on Feb 13, 2016 0:35:52 GMT -6
If and only if force sensitivity is exclusively genetic in origin. Given that the Force, while strictly speaking not a person, is referred to as having a "will" and depicted as acting on its own, anyone could be force sensitive if the Force so willed it. "The Force is strong in my family." That line seems to indicate that there is some sort of hereditary component involved. And the Jedi prohibition on marriage and children always struck me as a measure taken against the emergence of a ruling or noble class based solely on force sensitivity - the chief and negative example of this being the role of the Sith in their eponymous Empire during its various incarnations. This is, of course, an EU/Legends lore reference, which falls outside of the primary thesis of this thread. Actually, I think it has more to do with Lucas'goofy efforts to make the Jedi into an organization of Space Buddhists where self-denial and asceticism are part of the "faith." That, and George doesn't know how to write a romantic storyline. |
|
randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
|
Post by randyb on Feb 13, 2016 10:12:47 GMT -6
If and only if force sensitivity is exclusively genetic in origin. Given that the Force, while strictly speaking not a person, is referred to as having a "will" and depicted as acting on its own, anyone could be force sensitive if the Force so willed it. "The Force is strong in my family." That line seems to indicate that there is some sort of hereditary component involved. Oh, there is definitely a genetic component, as you noted. I merely raised the possibility that it is not exclusively genetic; that is, that there are also non-genetic origins of Force sensitivity, by the will of the Force. And the Jedi prohibition on marriage and children always struck me as a measure taken against the emergence of a ruling or noble class based solely on force sensitivity - the chief and negative example of this being the role of the Sith in their eponymous Empire during its various incarnations. This is, of course, an EU/Legends lore reference, which falls outside of the primary thesis of this thread. Actually, I think it has more to do with Lucas' goofy efforts to make the Jedi into an organization of Space Buddhists where self-denial and asceticism are part of the "faith." That, and George doesn't know how to write a romantic storyline. Oh, the Buddhism is strong with the Jedi, no doubt. And Lucas definitely cannot write a Hollywood romance. I found the romance in the prequels painfully realistic rather than Hollywood dramatic. |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Feb 14, 2016 4:07:30 GMT -6
|
|
randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
|
Post by randyb on Feb 14, 2016 8:13:13 GMT -6
Depending on which group of Presbyterians, there's not much difference these days.  |
|
|
|
Post by saveforhalf on Dec 3, 2016 1:34:59 GMT -6
In the J. W. Rinzler Making of Return of the Jedi book, there is a transcription of a story conference between George Lucas and Lawrence Kazdan. Lucas says that, with enough practice anyone can learn to use the Force. He also states that Yoda is not trained in warfare and would be no good in a fight.
Also, in J. W. Rinzler's Making of Star Wars book, there's a transcript of Lucas' world-building exercise from 1977. He mentions midcloridians during this exercise, so that wasn't something he made up for the prequels.
I think a good analogy would be playing basketball. Anyone can learn to play basketball, but if you want to be in the NBA, you need to have the right genetics (i.e. be very tall). Likewise, anyone can learn to use the Force if they work hard enough at it, but only someone with the right genetics can reach the proficiency needed to be a jedi.
In the backstory to the original draft of Star Wars, the Jedi Knights are closely modeled on the praetorian guard of ancient Rome. They don't have magic powers, they are simply the 100 finest soldiers in the empire chosen to be the emperor's personal bodyguard. A corrupt politician becomes emperor and the jedi try to oust him for the good of the empire. They fail, are branded traitors, hunted down, and the emperor replaces them with the Sith Knights who are loyal to the emperor personally.
I don't remember where I saw the quote, but there was a quote from George Lucas around the time of Return of the Jedi stating that Luke's black outfit in RotJ is traditional jedi garb. It seems that he later changed his mind when making the prequels.
I always thought that the reason the emperor was so ugly in RotJ was that he was ancient. When Luke tells Yoda he cannot die, Yoda responds "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong." I thought that the emperor's corpse-like appearance implied that the emperor *was* that strong and he'd been alive for a very long time.
Also, it provides an interesting duality to the pursuit of immortality: Powerful light-side Force users accept death as natural; they die and come back as immortal, invulnerable ghosts. Powerful dark-side Force users fight to stave off death; they don't die from old age, they just become more corpse-like and decrepit as they become more ancient. However, they are still vulnerable to being killed.
It's a theme that can also be found in Tolkien's Middle Earth (especially in the Silmarillion) as well: The fear of death corrupts, and using magic to avoid ever dying is a dark path. Death is natural and isn't something to be feared.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Dec 3, 2016 11:27:10 GMT -6
In the J. W. Rinzler Making of Return of the Jedi book, there is a transcription of a story conference between George Lucas and Lawrence Kazdan. Lucas says that, with enough practice anyone can learn to use the Force. This was always the impression I had of the Force, until those dumb prequels came out. |
|
|
|
Post by owlorbs on Dec 29, 2016 14:50:22 GMT -6
Thanks for the thread, good stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 29, 2016 20:06:16 GMT -6
In the J. W. Rinzler Making of Return of the Jedi book, there is a transcription of a story conference between George Lucas and Lawrence Kazdan. Lucas says that, with enough practice anyone can learn to use the Force. This was always the impression I had of the Force, until those dumb prequels came out. And it makes much more sense if you want your young audience to see themselves reflected in the characters.  |
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Dec 31, 2016 3:41:57 GMT -6
Also, in J. W. Rinzler's Making of Star Wars book, there's a transcript of Lucas' world-building exercise from 1977. He mentions midcloridians during this exercise, so that wasn't something he made up for the prequels. This makes me sad. No idea that Lucas was idiotic from the onset. I always thought that the reason the emperor was so ugly in RotJ was that he was ancient. When Luke tells Yoda he cannot die, Yoda responds "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong." I thought that the emperor's corpse-like appearance implied that the emperor *was* that strong and he'd been alive for a very long time. My own personal theory is that the Force makes one ugly. Emperor... ugly. Yoda... ugly. Vader... so ugly he had to hide his face. Luke...starts out okay, but by the time we get to ESB he's getting ugly. (Okay, so Mark Hammill had a car accident, but work with me on this.) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2016 10:12:43 GMT -6
My own personal theory is that the Force makes one ugly. Emperor... ugly. Yoda... ugly. Vader... so ugly he had to hide his face. Luke...starts out okay, but by the time we get to ESB he's getting ugly. (Okay, so Mark Hammill had a car accident, but work with me on this.)  |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Jan 2, 2017 19:37:23 GMT -6
Everything comes with a price tag.
Personally, I'd get rid of the "Rule of Two." That never made much sense to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hawklord on Jan 25, 2017 1:03:23 GMT -6
The problem is that the assuption that Obi-Wan's robes = jedi robes is introduced at the very end of the original trilogy: when Anakin (and i mean david Prowse) joins Yoda and Obi Wan as a "Force ghost", he's wearing a similar outfit. I know I'm a little late to this conversation, but Anakin Skywalker/unmasked Vader was played by Sebastian Shaw at the end of RotJ, not David Prowse. |
|
...)
