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Post by Otto Harkaman on Dec 5, 2015 6:06:28 GMT -6
Found a copy of GDW En Garde! first published in 1975  |
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Post by simonw on Dec 5, 2015 15:03:12 GMT -6
Cool - I've got that somewhere. Played it a bit back in the day - mainly by post.
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 295
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Post by premmy on Dec 5, 2015 18:27:34 GMT -6
As most of my players in my current (rarely gaming) group are Asian, I would probably get more enthusiasm using Bushido of GURPS: Chine (or Japan). I'm not sure. Why would a (say) Japanese person get a kick out of playing in a badly mangled, thoroughly culturally misrepresented and lamentably Westenised version of his own cultural history? Not to imply that Bushido or GURPS: China are necessarily bad products, but I'm positive that unless they've been actually written by a Japanese-oriented version of M. A. R. Barker who has spent decades learning and understanding a culture he loves and is an avid roleplayer, they're about as "authentic" as DnD is about Medieval Europe. Which, as a European, I have to say is "not at all". |
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Post by kesher on Dec 5, 2015 18:38:10 GMT -6
WHAT??  |
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darien
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 135 
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Post by darien on Dec 5, 2015 19:51:47 GMT -6
I have considered running an old-school campaign set in either Imperial Rome or Feudal Japan, but with magic present.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 5, 2015 21:51:37 GMT -6
As most of my players in my current (rarely gaming) group are Asian, I would probably get more enthusiasm using Bushido of GURPS: Chine (or Japan). I'm not sure. Why would a (say) Japanese person get a kick out of playing in a badly mangled, thoroughly culturally misrepresented and lamentably Westenised version of his own cultural history? Not to imply that Bushido or GURPS: China are necessarily bad products, but I'm positive that unless they've been actually written by a Japanese-oriented version of M. A. R. Barker who has spent decades learning and understanding a culture he loves and is an avid roleplayer, they're about as "authentic" as DnD is about Medieval Europe. Which, as a European, I have to say is "not at all". One or two players would prefer to play Asian characters if I set the game in the "real" world, and they didn't care for 17th-century Europe at all. Mind you, I was using the HERO System for the game. The problem with that is that the players would want a superhero campaign with that system, which I have no interest whatsoever in running. At least one player is familiar with Bushido and was tinkering with a game set in the Sengoku era, so I'm sure he would be open to the idea. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 20, 2019 18:48:54 GMT -6
Update: I never got around to running a historical game, but I have a renewed interest in doing so. I would probably use the B/X or 2E rules, although I'm leaning towards the former. I was able to get a copy of the Charlemagne's Paladins source book, so I can use some of those rules, particularly how to handle clerical spells.
Assuming this is a one-shot game, I would allow fighters, clerics, and thieves as PCs. I would probably keep it historical, although I may add a few fantasy elements if the players really want them. I plan to base the fantasy elements from folklore rather than modern fantasy literature. Fortunately, D&D already has stats for many of these creatures, and I can also use a Castle Falkenstein supplement to help detail them.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Dec 20, 2019 23:36:25 GMT -6
Take a look at Lion & Dragon.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 20, 2019 23:47:07 GMT -6
Thanks for the recommendation.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 22, 2019 2:33:28 GMT -6
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Post by Starbeard on Dec 22, 2019 16:44:51 GMT -6
I'm probably in left field on this, but in a historical game I'd likely get rid of clerics and make magic-users the priests, with turning, purification and healing spells added.
My reasoning is that most astrologers, magicians and alchemists were priests, both in history and literature. That, and most of the magical effects I've seen in medieval saint's lives and so on seem closer to MU spells than cleric spells. The cleric list is slightly misleading because many of the spells are clearly inspired by biblical miracles, but these miracles typically weren't associated with medieval saints or magician priests.
Actually, if I were really going deep into it, I'd probably compile new spell lists for scholars/priests in each of the major religions, and probably a heretical movement or two like the Albigensians. The traditional cleric class would use a baby version of the list and be for warrior priests and the rare university educated nobleman who achieved ordaination but continues to occupy secular pursuits.
Folk wizards would require a think.
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Post by dicebro on Dec 22, 2019 16:55:57 GMT -6
Beware the history buffs who say “you can’t do that!”
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 22, 2019 19:01:51 GMT -6
I'm probably in left field on this, but in a historical game I'd likely get rid of clerics and make magic-users the priests, with turning, purification and healing spells added. My reasoning is that most astrologers, magicians and alchemists were priests, both in history and literature. That, and most of the magical effects I've seen in medieval saint's lives and so on seem closer to MU spells than cleric spells. The cleric list is slightly misleading because many of the spells are clearly inspired by biblical miracles, but these miracles typically weren't associated with medieval saints or magician priests. Actually, if I were really going deep into it, I'd probably compile new spell lists for scholars/priests in each of the major religions, and probably a heretical movement or two like the Albigensians. The traditional cleric class would use a baby version of the list and be for warrior priests and the rare university educated nobleman who achieved ordaination but continues to occupy secular pursuits. Folk wizards would require a think. Interesting idea, although I'm more inclined to keep clerics instead of magic-users. I may allow a few magic-user spells for clerics. I'm toying the idea of magic-users being elves or humans with some measure of otherworldly heritage, although that won't explain stories about scholarly wizards. But this will probably be a one-shot adventure, so I won't sweat the details. Keep in mind not all priests will be clerics. Most will be zero-level NPCs or even fighting men. I would eliminate magic altogether in this game, but my players will not be happy with the lack of magical healing. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 22, 2019 19:18:44 GMT -6
Beware the history buffs who say “you can’t do that!” Fortunately, that's unlikely to happen in my group. |
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
Posts: 387
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Post by flightcommander on Dec 22, 2019 19:39:50 GMT -6
I really like the idea of a historical campaign using rules from OD&D or similar. Even more I like the idea of adding a bit of magic to it, and heck while we're at it let's add blackpowder weapons. I just picked up a PDF of Miseries & Misfortunes (having completely missed the print run) and it looks like a nice resource.
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Post by Starbeard on Dec 22, 2019 22:53:53 GMT -6
I'm probably in left field on this, but in a historical game I'd likely get rid of clerics and make magic-users the priests, with turning, purification and healing spells added. My reasoning is that most astrologers, magicians and alchemists were priests, both in history and literature. That, and most of the magical effects I've seen in medieval saint's lives and so on seem closer to MU spells than cleric spells. The cleric list is slightly misleading because many of the spells are clearly inspired by biblical miracles, but these miracles typically weren't associated with medieval saints or magician priests. Actually, if I were really going deep into it, I'd probably compile new spell lists for scholars/priests in each of the major religions, and probably a heretical movement or two like the Albigensians. The traditional cleric class would use a baby version of the list and be for warrior priests and the rare university educated nobleman who achieved ordaination but continues to occupy secular pursuits. Folk wizards would require a think. Interesting idea, although I'm more inclined to keep clerics instead of magic-users. I may allow a few magic-user spells for clerics. I'm toying the idea of magic-users being elves or humans with some measure of otherworldly heritage, although that won't explain stories about scholarly wizards. But this will probably be a one-shot adventure, so I won't sweat the details. Keep in mind not all priests will be clerics. Most will be zero-level NPCs or even fighting men. I would eliminate magic altogether in this game, but my players will not be happy with the lack of magical healing. I think that could work. I've already done something similar regarding elves/MUs in my preferred OD&D house rules, which ditch the cleric, give MUs access to both spell lists, and the thing that makes elves otherworldly is that they all can cast magic (MU only though) and they have the cleric's ability to turn the undead. That makes elves seem appropriately weird to me. If I stuck with clerics, I might do what you suggest and mix in a number of non-combat MU spells, but take away the ability to turn. Instead, they can only exorcise spirits out of bodies they shouldn't be in, and I'd boost & add more blessing type spells that protect against evil. Then I'd give the elves and maybe even wizards turning, plus a number of cleric healing spells mixed into the MU list. That way they are like these strange and terrifying necromancers who have infernal powers over life and death. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 23, 2019 0:09:11 GMT -6
I may keep the turning ability of clerics, although undead will be quite rare. I would allow the turning ability to affect Faerie creatures as well, although these creatures would be turned at one level higher than their hit dice. Elves would not be affected by this ability, although they may take extra damage from weapons made from iron and steel.
I would define clerical spells as prayers or miracles rather than spells proper. They would take a whole round to cast, and beneficial spells would only affect those with the same faith. Furthermore, as per the Charlemagne's Paladins sourcebook, priests who break the laws of the Church will lose their spellcasting ability until they atone for their sins.
Demi-humans will always be NPCs or monsters if they appear at all. Elves would be Alfar or Sidhe, living in hollow hills or in enchanted areas far away from human civilizations. They may help or oppose humans, depending on their ulterior motives. Dwarves will have hidden kingdoms and will most likely have few dealings with humanity. Halflings, if they exist, will be renamed to keep them more in line with traditional folklore; perhaps Hobbs will work. Still not sure how they will fit in. Other creatures like dragons or giants will live in isolated areas.
All that being said, almost every encounter will be with humans and/or animals. I am trying to decide whether to set the game in Carolingian France or Norman England. I have a Robin Hood sourcebook that also deals with the civil war between King Stephen and Empress Maud. The sourcebook is for use with HERO and Rolemaster (stats for both systems are included), but I can convert it to D&D. I also have the Vikings sourcebook from 2E, which is another possibility.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Dec 23, 2019 1:24:50 GMT -6
Clerics in the OD&D sense are not the village priest. People aren’t busting out miracles all over the place! They are special people; not necessarily from within the Church.
I would even say that in a historical medieval game, Clerics should only be able to perform miracles when on adventures, and not during their downtime.
Likewise a wizard will be very wary of casting real spells in public for fear of drawing the wrong kind of attention; not just some superstition but powerful people trying to make his life interesting and/or short.
Fighting men are likely to dominate because they can use the best magic weapons and because they don’t ever suffer from power loss like our magical friends.
I have a class I call the “Holmes Monk” that is inferior to a Cleric but has a far more medieval feel to it. With the proper XP table it is quite playable even if it lacks raw power.
I would probably steer clear of the Greyhawk thief. If you want something like that let me suggest the Rat-Catcher.
As far as Demi-men go, consider making different human ancestries to reflect the cultures of the dwarfs and elfs. Hobbits are easy enough to RP because they are basically country folk.
If you are looking for a character class that can emulate the special talents of the Demi-men, I have one I can share that’s called the Treasure Hunter (rename it how you like) which combines many of the Demi-men’s special abilities and a few Thief abilities.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Dec 23, 2019 1:27:59 GMT -6
Another topic: it would be OK to have mythical creatures and monsters on the periphery of the world of Men. Maybe there is just one specimen of certain monsters: The Vampire; The Lich; The Gorgon; The Dragon; The Purple Wurm; The Stone Giant. Whatever.
Each of them would be hidden and have a special lair of its own.
This would make an expedition to slay one of these and bring back proof into a much better adventure than just getting one on the wandering monster table.
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 26, 2019 23:32:09 GMT -6
Tkdco2 wrote:
Which ever class you decide to keep; I would take a hint from published Gygaxian source material, like Deities & Demigods, in which some 0-lvl npc have spell-like abilities, casting a spell as an 'n' level cleric or magic user once per lunar cycle/month, equinox, solstice etc.
Scholarly wizards, as far as I have come to understand them, are a facet of the Persian and Islamic Middle East or the late Medieval and Renaissance period in Europe. Spell casters with an otherworldly heritage suggest tribal spell casters and druids, I expect.
Consider Chainmail for simulation or Men & Magic, if playing loosely with level. A leader in Chainmail, man+1, is the equivalent of a veteran 1+1 HD in Men & Magic.
For historicity, play the non-heroic game, that of normal men and their leaders as explained in Chainmail, or if you must, add levels 2 and 3 in Men & Magic, HD: 2+1 and 3, respectively.
If engaged in lethal combat. rather than non-lethal, there is 1in6 chance of being injured, -1 on all dice rolls for 1d6+1 days.
Zero hit points could be considered 'de hors de combat', 2in6 chance to survive (+1/lvl) veterans, (optionally warriors and swordsmen too). Rule that successful attacks from behind or perhaps surprise are considered 'de hors de combat'.
Adjust the healing rate, provided 1 turn in 6 is spent resting, to 1 hit point every 6 turns for hit points above zero.
Recovering from 'de hors de combat' is 2d6 months and 2in6 chance convalescing without permanent injury.
A permanent injury, -1 on all dice rolls', cannot be healed.
Add 1 permanent hit point for each time a figure survives, 'de hors de combat'.
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 27, 2019 0:04:03 GMT -6
Scott Anderson:
Indeed, each monster becomes the sole source of adversity, excluding attrition and exposure in such remote locations. Perhaps some monsters might remain on the borderland, like the vampire, holding court with lusty thralls and nomadic retainers.
In an historic game, I would consider some modification without resorting to nerfing them. Following the example in my previous post, give the vampire the maximum hit points of a veteran, or whatever lvl. title experience is capped. Modify regeneration, upon reaching 0 hp, 'de hors de combat', regain 1/3 hit points/day while resting within his casket and native soil. As he may be impaled with a stake, I would lose the 'hit only by magical weapons'.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 27, 2019 0:10:01 GMT -6
Thanks for the suggestions. I will look over Deities and Demigods and Chainmail.
My scholarly wizard idea was based on stories about men such as Roger Bacon and Faust. The otherworldly heritage came from unions between humans and either Faeries or demons (cf. Merlin). I may allow the elf class from B/X to represent such individuals, although I would draw from traditional folklore rather than modern sources. Keep in mind, not all such individuals will have magic powers, but most will have some sign of their supernatural parentage, such as having one red eye while the other is a normal color. I need to find my Enchanted World books to use as reference.
As for clerical magic, Raise Dead will not be available. However, I doubt the campaign will be that high level. I'm thinking of making the PCs 3rd to 5th level.
Keep in mind I'm just throwing out ideas I've had for a while now. I don't know how much of this I will keep.
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 27, 2019 0:33:07 GMT -6
Look to the snow witches in the Newhon Mythos, if I recall correctly, and in the appendices for times of the year in which rituals occur, i.e the stars align, etc.
Right, Roger Bacon was writing in the Medieval period and Faust is presumed to have lived in the late Medieval. Faerie and demonic heritage, like that of Merlin, are derived from the woolier, tribal periods of the Dark Ages and before.
Enchanted World Books are always a win! ;-)
As I mentioned, 1-3rd level is the non-heroic game, it was also the level spread for Basic D&D; the rules as written work for this! Though as I mentioned above, bringing high level monsters, like the vampire, into this venue demand some attention and modification when experience levels are capped in this way.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 27, 2019 14:41:41 GMT -6
Also look at stories such as that of Melusine. Maybe I'm overthinking this. It will probably be a one-shot game, and I won't need too many details. But thanks for the suggestions; I may yet find a way to use them in my game.
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Post by retrorob on Dec 27, 2019 15:48:57 GMT -6
I run a historical campaign set in the late Roman Empire during the 4th century (ca. 370 AD, just before the arrival of the Huns). PC are Germanic (Gothic) warriors on quest for revenge, but there is also a Roman cleric, who tries to convert the barbarians. We use B/X D&D with few house rules (binding wounds from Judges Guild), Osprey Publishing & Historical Reference are quite useful (besides, I'm a historian myself). Works perfectly.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 18, 2020 22:44:47 GMT -6
Would paladins (the Greyhawk Supplement version, not the AD&D version) work for a (semi-) historical campaign?
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 19, 2020 11:16:09 GMT -6
Would paladins (the Greyhawk Supplement version, not the AD&D version) work for a (semi-) historical campaign? Sure why not? I tend to think of the Cleric as the prototypical paladin type even though there are myth-based and history-based examples of a sword wielding holy man. But that’s my own conceit and not something from the rules. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 19, 2020 14:16:46 GMT -6
Thanks, Scott. I was thinking of having the cleric belong to a military order like the Templars. Paladins may belong to one of those orders, but not necessarily. Maybe toned down versions of the ranger, bard, and even assassin may also work.
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Post by tkdco2 on Feb 1, 2020 4:51:39 GMT -6
I just remembered I once had an idea for a low fantasy campaign. While all the major Tolkien races were around, they were evolutionary offshoots of humanity. Magic was based on psychic ability rather than actual spell casting. This idea was made for Fantasy HERO; not sure how the magic system would work for OD&D. But the races should be easy enough to adapt.
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