When Do You Resolve Charges?

[stormberg]

Howdy All,


Are charges resolved after pass-through fire? Is a return attack against charging opponents conducted at this time or does that wait until the melee period?

Thanks!


Futures Bright,

Paul

[cooper]

All missile fire is resolved before melee according to the note on page 9, including pass through and split move fire, during the move portion of the turn. No missile fire can happen once melee begins (as also evidenced in the cary over into d&d).

[derv]

Hi Paul,

I really enjoy these sort of questions about Chainmail. They immediately conjure up images of what might be taking place on the table.

Did you have a specific situation where this occurred and brought a ruling in question?

Well, I would answer "yes" to your first question. Pass through fire would occur at the half move point of the charge and any casualties immediately removed from play. Also, excess casualty morale checks would be made if required.

For the second part of your question, if I understand what you're asking, I would say return attacks (or blows) would occur during the melee segment of the turn, but I might need some specifics to answer more accurately beyond that.

Are you using the Move/Counter Move sequence?

[Deleted]

As above. Pass through fire, finish the move, all other missile fire, melee.

[stormberg]

Howdy All,


Thanks for the answers. I should have said, "When do you resolve the kills for a charge?"

Example using Move/Counter-move: 10 horse figures (2 ranks of 5) charge a line of 20 infantry (2 ranks of 10) backed by 20 archers (2 ranks of 10 elevated on the slope of a hill). The side with foot allows move to opponent running the horse to bring the horse into range for short bow fire. Half-way through the horse move we resolve pass through missile fire, kills are removed/knocked over and morale is checked. The horse unit continues its move, contacts the infantry and morale check for infantry to stand passes.

So do I resolve the charge attack by the horse at contact or do I defer those kills until the melee phase? If I defer, may I then resolve counter-move, artillery/spells, and missile fire (I assume the front rank of charging horse is no longer subject to missile fire due to contact with troops friendly to archers but the back rank and any other enemy within range could be).

It seems everything happens within its own phase and since charges combine both a move and attack (like a split move missile fire) it seems logical that the effect of the charge should be resolved during the move phase upon contact.

If it is resolved upon contact is the counter attack by the foot handled as at this time as well?


Futures Bright,


Paul

[cooper]

The note on page nine says "all other fire is considered to simultaneously take effect just prior to melee."

What that means is, even though you move your horses first, it is assumed the last bit of missile fire launches moments before the horses hit the line of men.

I suppose you could house rule that if the any line of troops makes contact within the first 1/2 move, then the remaining half of missile fire can be disrupted, but CHAINMAIL as written doesn't allow for disrupting missile fire.

One could even go so far as to back port segmented initiative in CM if one wanted to be more granular. There is nothing precluding dividing movement rates into segments and assigning a "casting time' to missile fire for determining when the line of troops hit the archers. Supplement III Eldritch Wizardry does just that.

[derv]

Jun 8, 2015 9:18:46 GMT -6 stormberg said:

Example using Move/Counter-move: 10 horse figures (2 ranks of 5) charge a line of 20 infantry (2 ranks of 10) backed by 20 archers (2 ranks of 10 elevated on the slope of a hill). The side with foot allows move to opponent running the horse to bring the horse into range for short bow fire. Half-way through the horse move we resolve pass through missile fire, kills are removed/knocked over and morale is checked. The horse unit continues its move, contacts the infantry and morale check for infantry to stand passes.

So do I resolve the charge attack by the horse at contact or do I defer those kills until the melee phase? If I defer, may I then resolve counter-move, artillery/spells, and missile fire (I assume the front rank of charging horse is no longer subject to missile fire due to contact with troops friendly to archers but the back rank and any other enemy within range could be).

It seems everything happens within its own phase and since charges combine both a move and attack (like a split move missile fire) it seems logical that the effect of the charge should be resolved during the move phase upon contact.

If it is resolved upon contact is the counter attack by the foot handled as at this time as well?

I'm going to tell you how I handle it. Others may view this differently. Your reasoning above seems sound for the most part.

The charge move can only be used "when melee contact is expected during some portion of the turn". This is true regardless of whether the figure is horse or foot.

In that case, once contact is made, I consider them in melee and do not allow further missile fire against those particular figures. I regard this to be true for the entire unit of figures.

In your example, the horses would be subject to pass through fire at the half move by any missile weapons within range. I would allow a second volley against the horse prior to contact only by the figures being charged assuming their morale held against the charge. In your example, these are not missile armed figures. So, for me, no second volley against the horse. On to melee.

It seems that the horse have initiative in your example, so they will roll first on the combat tables, then the footmen. If casualties occur, Post Melee morale check.

[Deleted]

First, a unit in melee is in melee. You cannot fire into the back rank of a unit in melee, because you cannot fire into melee. A unit is considered a unit.

Second, all melee comes after all missile fire.

[cooper]

Also the belief that charge somehow is a special "move+attack" is not supported in the rules. Walking is also a "move+attack" the only difference is faster movement of a charge and some various other benefits.

A horse charge is not a flying arrow of horses that allows for the disruption of the missile fire portion of a turn.

The turn is abstract, just because you move a force 1/2 a move doesn't mean that's where those troops are at that moment it only means that's where those troops are moving toward, but the game can't very well ask the player to move his hands super slowly showing the real time movement of the troops. Instead the game asks you to image those troops moving even though you've already placed them at their destination.

The second volley of missile fire takes place before the horse actually hit the front line. Gygax couldn't be more clear. There is no special exemption for horse not for charging not for horses charging. (House rule to your hearts desire of course. Some people with a good knowledge of history say that missile fire in CHAINMAIL is perhaps overpowered anyway.)

[stormberg]

Howdy All,


I have always resolved charges during the melee phase. It just came up when one player took the lead and decided to resolve it upon contact and so I brought it to the forum to consider an opposing argument.

I will say that I have adjudicated that missile fire is not possible against troops in contact with the enemy (3rd Ed, pg. 16) and that spell casting is likewise not possible when an enemy unit is in contact with a wizard figure. There are however examples of hurled weapons (javelins, hand axes, etc.) being *always* useable against approaching or charging units (pg. 12). The same is *not* true for crossbowmen and archers as mentioned on page 11, "If Archers or Longbowmen do not move and are not meleed at the end of a turn they may fire twice."

However a few of you seem to think that *initial* contact does not constitute melee for purposes of missile fire (and perhaps spell casting) being allowed. Do you by extrapolation, rule that only *initial* contact equals not engaged in melee but subsequent turns of contact do indicate being in melee?

Also, by my reading of Move/Counter Move, everything but movement, pass through, and split fire occur simultaneously and are not dictated by the initiative die, i.e., effects of artillery/spells, normal missile fire, and melee are simultaneous.


Futures Bright,

Paul

[derv]

Jun 9, 2015 9:50:52 GMT -6 stormberg said:

There are however examples of hurled weapons (javelins, hand axes, etc.) being *always* useable against approaching or charging units (pg. 12).

This is what I was alluding to when I said:

"I would allow a second volley against the horse prior to contact only by the figures being charged assuming their morale held against the charge. In your example, these are not missile armed figures."

Maybe I should have said, "I assume these are not missile armed figures".

Also, by my reading of Move/Counter Move, everything but movement, pass through, and split fire occur simultaneously and are not dictated by the initiative die, i.e., effects of artillery/spells, normal missile fire, and melee are simultaneous.

What initiative does in all cases is determines who goes first.

Contact during the movement segment establishes melee. I remove casualties at each segment of the turn when casualties occur. Though, artillery is not usually a factor in my games. Melee is resolved last.

I am wondering if I'm understanding you completely when you talk about "resolving the charge". Are you talking about melee or are you also talking about morale too?

If you are talking about the "Cavalry Charge" morale, I would resolve this during the move segment. Pg.15 states, "Victorious charging units must continue to move out the balance of their charge move, in the direction first indicated, providing they attained victory before melee or during the first round of melee."

I understand this "before melee" to be referring to the morale check.

[Deleted]

Jun 9, 2015 9:50:52 GMT -6 stormberg said:

Howdy All,


I have always resolved charges during the melee phase. It just came up when one player took the lead and decided to resolve it upon contact and so I brought it to the forum to consider an opposing argument.

I will say that I have adjudicated that missile fire is not possible against troops in contact with the enemy (3rd Ed, pg. 16) and that spell casting is likewise not possible when an enemy unit is in contact with a wizard figure. There are however examples of hurled weapons (javelins, hand axes, etc.) being *always* useable against approaching or charging units (pg. 12). The same is *not* true for crossbowmen and archers as mentioned on page 11, "If Archers or Longbowmen do not move and are not meleed at the end of a turn they may fire twice."

However a few of you seem to think that *initial* contact does not constitute melee for purposes of missile fire (and perhaps spell casting) being allowed. Do you by extrapolation, rule that only *initial* contact equals not engaged in melee but subsequent turns of contact do indicate being in melee?

Also, by my reading of Move/Counter Move, everything but movement, pass through, and split fire occur simultaneously and are not dictated by the initiative die, i.e., effects of artillery/spells, normal missile fire, and melee are simultaneous.


Futures Bright,

Paul

If the units involved in the charge had no other impact elsewhere there's no harm in resolving their melee immediately.

Other than hurled weapons such as spears, etc, missile troops may not fire the second time if they are meleed at the end of the turn. Initial contact DOES count as melee for the purposes of missile fire. People complain about how badly archers suck in melee, but that's proper both historically and from a game point of view. If anybody complains tell them "learn to protect your archers."

Your interpretation of how Move/Countermove works is right.

That's how it was played in Don Kaye's garage. If Rob Kuntz or Jeff Perren contradicts me believe them, but otherwise, this is about as close to "author's intent" as you'll get.