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Post by rsdean on May 23, 2020 4:21:45 GMT -6
So, I had the three later Prestags games (Legion, Viking and Yeoman) BITD, and I think I added the other two in my collector phase in the ealry ‘90s. But they all went out two decades ago in a private sale to a gaming acquaintance who had lost his collection in a fire. Curious about this, though, I pulled the trigger on a copy of the earlier Dark Ages which arrived yesterday. Remembering Prestags, I was a little surprised to find at first glance that they don’t seem to have set locations suggested on the board for the scenarios? (I also got Musket and Pike as long as I was buying... )
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Mogadeet
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Post by Mogadeet on May 23, 2020 10:28:49 GMT -6
Musket and Pike is a most excellent game.
I believe I have a copy of Dark Ages so I'll take a look.
And, in case you never tried, the Prestags boards work very well with Rifle & Saber. Next to no clarifications or changes are required. I think Line of Sight rules are directly transferable, as well as Movement costs.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 23, 2020 13:48:07 GMT -6
The digital copy I have of Dark ages has no specific setup points, its up to the designated Player (defender?) to choose a hex location on the map. He has a number of hexes from that hex to setup. The attacking player has to setup within a certain amount of hexes from the defenders hex of location. Going off of memory so double check me
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Post by owlorbs on May 23, 2020 13:57:54 GMT -6
Re: Dark Ages,
Be sure to get a copy of the errata if you have a first printing. There was quite a bit (including deployment).
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Post by rsdean on May 24, 2020 5:07:37 GMT -6
Thanks. I’ve downloaded it. You still get to choose where the battle will take place with the exception of one Crusades-era battle, as far as I can see.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 28, 2020 8:15:40 GMT -6
Oh my goodness, look what arrived in the mail today.
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Post by stevemitchell on May 28, 2020 11:49:39 GMT -6
Did you have to take out a second mortgage to pay for this? (And yes, I'm jealous.)
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Mogadeet
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Post by Mogadeet on May 28, 2020 12:04:48 GMT -6
Was the address on the shipping label the same as yours? If not, then you got a freebee.
Some questions that might be fun to find if anyone else has discussed them:
1. BLs only appear in one module, Spartan, and 1 Scenario (6.0 Comparative Scenario). But if BLs are available as part of the counter mix for "do it yourself" scenarios, are they treated in a similar manner as artillery in Yeoman? The characteristics of large catapults and Bombards can be pretty similar, and catapults, like bombards, were not especially mobile.
2. Has anyone ever seen a discussion of Optional Rule 14.2, and the logic behind it (Class A & B units on slopes cannot be disrupted)? We've found it to not be a problem in the scenarios, but with "do it yourself" scenarios it proved to be a terrific imbalancer.
3. When using Spartan Special Rule 3.3, does the extended hex of range have any effect upon the fire combat strength?
I found an errata document that is a good idea to check out. One of the things it addresses is how to respond to contact results in your flank when using Optional Rule 16.0 Facing (a most excellent optional rule, by the way). I've added it as an attachment.
Attachments:prestags.rtf (2.91 KB)
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 28, 2020 14:28:07 GMT -6
Was the address on the shipping label the same as yours? If not, then you got a freebee. Some questions that might be fun to find if anyone else has discussed them:
1. BLs only appear in one module, Spartan, and 1 Scenario (6.0 Comparative Scenario). But if BLs are available as part of the counter mix for "do it yourself" scenarios, are they treated in a similar manner as artillery in Yeoman? The characteristics of large catapults and Bombards can be pretty similar, and catapults, like bombards, were not especially mobile.
2. Has anyone ever seen a discussion of Optional Rule 14.2, and the logic behind it (Class A & B units on slopes cannot be disrupted)? We've found it to not be a problem in the scenarios, but with "do it yourself" scenarios it proved to be a terrific imbalancer.
3. When using Spartan Special Rule 3.3, does the extended hex of range have any effect upon the fire combat strength?
I found an errata document that is a good idea to check out. One of the things it addresses is how to respond to contact results in your flank when using Optional Rule 16.0 Facing (a most excellent optional rule, by the way). I've added it as an attachment.
I haven't even opened the package, as stevemitchell insinuated I paid a pretty penny for it. But I had the funds and I thought to myself, you know you would love to have it. The first thing I am going to do is take it to a really good print shop downtown and have all the maps and counters scanned. Supposedly everything is unpunched except "Chariot". I've been working on my ZunTzu module for Dark Ages and just started to toy around with setting up the Battle of Hasting scenario. I used the creme colored counters to make my others. (click on the image to enlarge)
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Mogadeet
Level 1 Medium
Retired, parasite on society and Lovin' it.
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Post by Mogadeet on May 28, 2020 17:07:29 GMT -6
It's not a difficult conversion from Dark Ages to Viking. Is that map a Dark Ages map? Turns out I have Armageddon, Phalanx, Centurion, and Renaissance of Infantry, but not Dark Ages.
One of the things that we've discovered here is that Prestags maps are actually not difficult to make. The terrain types are simple and straight forward. And we further discovered that Rifle & Saber plays just fine on Prestags maps using Prestags sighting rules to cover questions. A good tactical system usually benefits from a large selection of maps.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 28, 2020 17:40:49 GMT -6
It's not a difficult conversion from Dark Ages to Viking. Is that map a Dark Ages map? Turns out I have Armageddon, Phalanx, Centurion, and Renaissance of Infantry, but not Dark Ages.
One of the things that we've discovered here is that Prestags maps are actually not difficult to make. The terrain types are simple and straight forward. And we further discovered that Rifle & Saber plays just fine on Prestags maps using Prestags sighting rules to cover questions. A good tactical system usually benefits from a large selection of maps.
I agree! I need to force myself to get going and work on making some maps. I would like to make them more relevant to the actual battlefields, well as much as that is possible. Yes it is the map from Dark Ages. No one to my knowledge has scanned the PRESTAG maps, at least there are no good copies up on BGG. Does your VASSAL module have these maps?
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 28, 2020 18:18:15 GMT -6
I also have access to a Vassal Module for Prestags. It has its quirks, but it works. A good computer guy could probably polish it up. I am wondering now if your PRESTAGS VASSAL module is a conversion of the Aide de Camp game set? (Click image to enlarge)
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Mogadeet
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Post by Mogadeet on May 28, 2020 19:43:06 GMT -6
My Vassal Prestags has the following maps:
Chariot Spartan Legion Viking Yeoman and a map called Alesia, which looks to be a fortification/fortified city map.
I could probably post them on here using the "save as PNG" function. Let me try: (The forum software laughs at my silly attempts to post a picture of the Alesia Map.)
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 28, 2020 21:05:04 GMT -6
My Vassal Prestags has the following maps:
Chariot Spartan Legion Viking Yeoman and a map called Alesia, which looks to be a fortification/fortified city map.
I could probably post them on here using the "save as PNG" function. Let me try: (The forum software laughs at my silly attempts to post a picture of the Alesia Map.)
Yeah the forum has limited space and ability to post pictures, no hurry I was just curious
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Mogadeet
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Retired, parasite on society and Lovin' it.
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Post by Mogadeet on May 29, 2020 13:50:45 GMT -6
OK, I am trying again:
And I am failing again.
Now We'll try this:
And that fails too.
How about this?
There! This link contains all 5 Prestags maps from Vassal in PNG format, plus the Alesia map.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 29, 2020 17:52:52 GMT -6
OK, I am trying again: And I am failing again. Now We'll try this: And that fails too. How about this? There! This link contains all 5 Prestags maps from Vassal in PNG format, plus the Alesia map. Very cool of you! Making dinner, I will have a look at them in a little bit. Get back to you in a little while.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 30, 2020 6:02:52 GMT -6
Well gave my PRESTAGS master pack an quick look this morning and it looks like those are scans of the PRESTAGS maps. Some of the color palettes seem to be off, someone might have changed them to 8-bit I image to try and save space. Did you take screen shots? Or did you go into the vassal module and extract them? I am curious if they might be higher resolution.
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Mogadeet
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Post by Mogadeet on May 30, 2020 8:05:21 GMT -6
I went into the Vassal module and chose the "save as .PNG" file option. I could have chosen JPG too, it will save them as JPG if you append the right ending to the file name.
The Yeoman map has actual "paper wrinkles" in it. No question that is a scan.
But there are also quite a large number of maps, which do not all look like scans at first glance, for pre-prepared scenarios as well. I'm wondering if those maps contain the alterations called for by the scenarios. If they do, then they would also qualify as unique maps. That, however, takes more gumption than I have stored up at the moment. Probably this afternoon.
Yes, at my age, "Gumption Depletion" is a real condition.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 30, 2020 8:45:36 GMT -6
I went into the Vassal module and chose the "save as .PNG" file option. I could have chosen JPG too, it will save them as JPG if you append the right ending to the file name.
The Yeoman map has actual "paper wrinkles" in it. No question that is a scan.
But there are also quite a large number of maps, which do not all look like scans at first glance, for pre-prepared scenarios as well. I'm wondering if those maps contain the alterations called for by the scenarios. If they do, then they would also qualify as unique maps. That, however, takes more gumption than I have stored up at the moment. Probably this afternoon.
Yes, at my age, "Gumption Depletion" is a real condition. Thanks again for sharing these maps, very curious about the modified ones. Yes I understand your "GD" limits I am still going to get the maps from my PRESTAGS masterpack scanned at sometime, at least 600dpi at a good blueprint/print shop. Amazing looking at the masterpack, someone took extra special care of it, I wonder how many unpunched PRESTAGS there are? More of a collectors item, I put it away till I have time to get it all scanned.
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Mogadeet
Level 1 Medium
Retired, parasite on society and Lovin' it.
Posts: 15
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Post by Mogadeet on May 30, 2020 12:43:44 GMT -6
Thanks again for sharing these maps, very curious about the modified ones. Yes I understand your "GD" limits I am still going to get the maps from my PRESTAGS masterpack scanned at sometime, at least 600dpi at a good blueprint/print shop. Amazing looking at the masterpack, someone took extra special care of it, I wonder how many unpunched PRESTAGS there are? More of a collectors item, I put it away till I have time to get it all scanned. An unpunched PRESTAGS Masterpack is a treasure indeed. A real collector's item. Leave it in pristine condition and you (or your beneficiaries) could make a real profit. I'm not quite so sentimental; I like to use what I own. You can, as we did over here, make your own counters so the originals do not have to be touched (we did this because the mix didn't offer what we needed for good DYI scenarios). There's plenty of blank countersheets on the web that can be printed up and mounted, like this:
Mounting is easy. I use packing tape to put a plastic coating on them and mount them on die-cut counter stock.
I went into the "setup" portion of Prestags Vassal and found there were many battles included that are not part of Prestags, like Aksu (Umayyads vs T'ang), and Valkia (10,000 BC, from Conan), as well as variants of existing scenarios. They added some new counters for these as well, including baggage trains and even "Zulu" warrior units. There's a huge number of these.
In a few of them (official Prestags ones), the terrain boards were modified per the scenario description, but the modifications were poorly executed. Not horribly so, but I could do better, and would if the software wasn't locked down tight.
Attachments:
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 30, 2020 19:17:41 GMT -6
Thanks again for sharing these maps, very curious about the modified ones. Yes I understand your "GD" limits I am still going to get the maps from my PRESTAGS masterpack scanned at sometime, at least 600dpi at a good blueprint/print shop. Amazing looking at the masterpack, someone took extra special care of it, I wonder how many unpunched PRESTAGS there are? More of a collectors item, I put it away till I have time to get it all scanned. An unpunched PRESTAGS Masterpack is a treasure indeed. A real collector's item. Leave it in pristine condition and you (or your beneficiaries) could make a real profit. I'm not quite so sentimental; I like to use what I own. You can, as we did over here, make your own counters so the originals do not have to be touched (we did this because the mix didn't offer what we needed for good DYI scenarios). There's plenty of blank countersheets on the web that can be printed up and mounted, like this: Mounting is easy. I use packing tape to put a plastic coating on them and mount them on die-cut counter stock. I went into the "setup" portion of Prestags Vassal and found there were many battles included that are not part of Prestags, like Aksu (Umayyads vs T'ang), and Valkia (10,000 BC, from Conan), as well as variants of existing scenarios. They added some new counters for these as well, including baggage trains and even "Zulu" warrior units. There's a huge number of these. In a few of them (official Prestags ones), the terrain boards were modified per the scenario description, but the modifications were poorly executed. Not horribly so, but I could do better, and would if the software wasn't locked down tight.
Oh I have seen those counters on BGG, purple and creme. I was thinking on using them when I work on a PRESTAGS module for ZunTzu. Unfortunately ZunTzu is broken, the developer stopped working on it, closed his server so you can't use it to play online. But I like how it handles on screen graphics, doesn't jaggy the counters when you change their facing diagonal. That is awesome how you printed out your own counters. I need to cut my Playstation habit and work on some maps.
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Mogadeet
Level 1 Medium
Retired, parasite on society and Lovin' it.
Posts: 15
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Post by Mogadeet on May 31, 2020 8:02:14 GMT -6
Here's some sheets I did for my own counters.
Attachments:
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Post by Otto Harkaman on May 31, 2020 11:04:24 GMT -6
Here's some sheets I did for my own counters.
Those look great!
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Mogadeet
Level 1 Medium
Retired, parasite on society and Lovin' it.
Posts: 15
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Post by Mogadeet on May 31, 2020 14:23:55 GMT -6
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Post by makofan on Jun 3, 2020 8:30:47 GMT -6
1. BLs only appear in one module, Spartan, and 1 Scenario (6.0 Comparative Scenario). But if BLs are available as part of the counter mix for "do it yourself" scenarios, are they treated in a similar manner as artillery in Yeoman? The characteristics of large catapults and Bombards can be pretty similar, and catapults, like bombards, were not especially mobile.
I had never thought of that, but it sounds like a reasonable ruling
2. Has anyone ever seen a discussion of Optional Rule 14.2, and the logic behind it (Class A & B units on slopes cannot be disrupted)? We've found it to not be a problem in the scenarios, but with "do it yourself" scenarios it proved to be a terrific imbalancer.
My guess is that infantry in a slope hex are already disrupted, so to speak, as they cannot form full lines, etc. So that is reflected in the half strength melee penalty they face. So the designers decided that further disruption or disorder would not happen. Not sure if I agree with them, but as you say, it works
3. When using Spartan Special Rule 3.3, does the extended hex of range have any effect upon the fire combat strength?
I always assumed you used the least favourable result. SO if your range increment is 3-2-1, then the fouth hex would be a 1
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Mogadeet
Level 1 Medium
Retired, parasite on society and Lovin' it.
Posts: 15
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Post by Mogadeet on Jun 3, 2020 12:26:59 GMT -6
1. BLs only appear in one module, Spartan, and 1 Scenario (6.0 Comparative Scenario). But if BLs are available as part of the counter mix for "do it yourself" scenarios, are they treated in a similar manner as artillery in Yeoman? The characteristics of large catapults and Bombards can be pretty similar, and catapults, like bombards, were not especially mobile. I had never thought of that, but it sounds like a reasonable ruling 2. Has anyone ever seen a discussion of Optional Rule 14.2, and the logic behind it (Class A & B units on slopes cannot be disrupted)? We've found it to not be a problem in the scenarios, but with "do it yourself" scenarios it proved to be a terrific imbalancer. My guess is that infantry in a slope hex are already disrupted, so to speak, as they cannot form full lines, etc. So that is reflected in the half strength melee penalty they face. So the designers decided that further disruption or disorder would not happen. Not sure if I agree with them, but as you say, it works 3. When using Spartan Special Rule 3.3, does the extended hex of range have any effect upon the fire combat strength? I always assumed you used the least favourable result. SO if your range increment is 3-2-1, then the fouth hex would be a 1 #1. In our next campaign game BLs will be treated like artillery. They will be able to change facing in an unlimbered state, because catapults (even trebuchets) are considerably lighter than bombards, but they will still have to be limbered to be moved, and unlimbered to be fired. The cost will be 2 MP.
#2. A & B units do not have their attacks halved because of the slope, but rather it's due to elevation effects. Ground level to slope, and Slope to hilltop have these effects (14.11). Attacking slope to slope comes close to demonstrating a state of disruption on the A or B unit, but with attacks going downhill (slope to ground level) being unaffected, and defense being unaffected (no roll bonuses or defensive effects at all), we couldn't picture this rule as being due to any disorganizing effects on the unit occupying the slope hex. If anything, the slope hex enhanced defense. And, I never thought the rule worked. My comment, " We've found it to not be a problem in the scenarios, " is not an "it works" statement, it is a "it doesn't suck under these conditions" statement. But, overall, we've found the rule does not work.
There is a certain logic to be had for these effects against fire combat. Even modern combat sees a reduction in accuracy by firing units when firing uphill. In those conditions, the lower-positioned shooters show a tendency to shoot too high or too low. And the broken terrain on slopes would work against bunching, which would make units on slopes poorer targets. So, for our purposes, we allow disruption due to melee, but NOT due to fire combat (kind of keeping the rule in, but toning it down). Since it is an Optional Rule, we weren't worried that our modification would call down the Space Monster upon us.
#3. I made the same assumption. Sadly, not everyone I've played with has.
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Mogadeet
Level 1 Medium
Retired, parasite on society and Lovin' it.
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Post by Mogadeet on Sept 8, 2020 10:13:11 GMT -6
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Post by Otto Harkaman on Oct 29, 2020 6:54:46 GMT -6
Reading a bit about the Battle of Lincoln 1141, King Stephen vs the nobles supporting Empress Maude; I relocated the position of the battle and tried to arrange the forces somewhat how they are described. The scenario was created by Steven Guy but I'm not sure I agree with the forces but I think its well balanced and should play well. The lake represents the town of Lincoln. Basically King Stephen's army has a center of infantry with wings of cavalry, Robert of Gloucester's army has a center of cavalry with wings of archers and infantry.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on Nov 6, 2020 16:01:43 GMT -6
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Post by rsdean on Nov 7, 2020 5:05:58 GMT -6
So, for various reasons I’ve decided to scrounge around and see if I can get the pre-PRESTAGs tactical games; Phalanx and Armageddon arrived this week...
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