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Post by ritt on Dec 27, 2015 0:11:33 GMT -6
But, I must say that Mark Hamill looks good in a beard. The dude should have been sporting one long ago SPOILERS The fair-haired boy has become the Old Testament prophet in the wilderness. Very powerful scene. One of the few new bits that really felt "Mythic".
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Post by derv on Dec 27, 2015 11:03:59 GMT -6
Slipstream! Wow! I must have missed this one back in the day. There ya have it, a picture is worth a thousand words
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Post by xerxez on Dec 27, 2015 19:01:45 GMT -6
I am in sympathy with those who felt it did not quite deliver.
It was very entertaining and had a lot of great features but not in the domain I wanted to find them in.
Harrison Ford and Peter Mathews give it it's best moments and I did enjoy that, as well as aerial, ground and interior shots of the Falcon in action that I consider the best of their kind in the film canon.
As to what I found very wrong with it, I posted that to my blog (it has spoilers), but let me say here I didn't like the entirety of Return of the Jedi being thrown out like an old Chinese food carton in the back of the fridge. The gravity of the peril that was faced and defeated, the magnitude of the rebel victory...not only was it all for nothing, but you are expected to piece together what happened after those events from the intro scrolling narration, cryptic new characters and scattered references dropped so sparingly that you are given no time at all to even develop the slightest iota of caring what happened, let alone understanding it. I realize the age of the original cast presented difficulties, but it felt frosty.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 27, 2015 20:13:38 GMT -6
[..] you are expected to piece together what happened after those events from the intro scrolling narration, cryptic new characters and scattered references dropped so sparingly that you are given no time at all to even develop the slightest iota of caring what happened, let alone understanding it. I suspect Disney's marketing department may have something to do with that - aren't there lots of spin-offs that give more detail on the background? That's what I gather from the few snatches of internet talk I've picked up, anyway. Actually, I don't mind ambiguity so much, possibly because I got used to that from the vast amount of anime I consume. I much prefer it to foreshadowing where you know that everything on screen is significant in some way. It actually helps my suspension of disbelief, if you know what I mean. That said, I think trying to recapture the magic of '77 is never going to happen for us grogards. It's the young generation we need to ask, and they have a lot of stuff competing with this movie - a lot of the youngsters I know who've been to see it grew up with Star Wars cartoons and toys, so there is none of that initial awe. I find it hard to convince myself that I'm objective about it, although I'm pretty sure I haven't been taken with any of the characters the way I was with the original trilogy's.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 28, 2015 11:00:29 GMT -6
I didn't like the entirety of Return of the Jedi being thrown out like an old Chinese food carton in the back of the fridge. The gravity of the peril that was faced and defeated, the magnitude of the rebel victory... Let me just say that RotJ feels to me rushed and not a satisfactory ending at all, especially given the luxurious setup in ESB. Furthermore, it was a total rehash of SW; at least, the situation at the end of RotJ is the same as the situation at the end of SW. The Empire is dealt a blow by the loss of the Death Star and a wicked old British man, and the Rebels have a big celebration. I have long had the feeling the series should be at least 6 episodes (ignoring the prequels, so, Eps. IV-IX), with Eps. VII-IX resembling Dark Empire more than anything. I personally would like to see a dark turn for Luke. But, I admit I am not super emotionally invested in anything beyond the original movie, right now, so, no matter what they do I don’t really expect to really like it very much. “Not sucking” is a good start, I guess.
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Post by ritt on Dec 28, 2015 11:59:20 GMT -6
[/quote]Let me just say that RotJ feels to me rushed and not a satisfactory ending at all, especially given the luxurious setup in ESB. [/quote]
This may be blasphemy, but I never liked Return, even as a kid in the 80's. It's a wet noodle series of anti-climax after anti-climax, and only a few cool elements (Jabba's court, hover bikes, Admiral Ackbar, Carrie Fisher cosplaying as Dejah Thoris) lift it above The Phantom Menace. Boba Fett goes down like a chump (I think it supposed to be funny, but like every attempt at humor in the film it falls like a bowling ball dropped onto a hardwood floor). The final battle for the galaxy is a few dozen people fighting over a Morton building in the woods. I honestly like Revenge of the Sith more.
Sorry, I've just had to get that off my chest since grade school.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 28, 2015 12:28:02 GMT -6
And Darth Vader never does anything evil the whole movie. He’s a kind old man in every scene.
And Han Solo never does anything cool the whole movie (never even pilots the Falcon at all). They spend a third of the movie rescuing him and then he just rides along for the rest.
And EotB’s promise of “there is another” — nope, not a thing. Luke fails over and over, but we’re all fine here now, thank you.
Speeder bikes are fun; Ian McDiarmid is fun and his theme song memorable; but overall, yeah, big letdown.
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mindcontrolsquid
Level 4 Theurgist
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man..."
Posts: 118
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Post by mindcontrolsquid on Dec 28, 2015 12:41:08 GMT -6
I get what you're saying, and from what I understand, Return of the Jedi is not everyone's favorite. I may be in the minority, but personally I think it is my favorite, Ewoks and all (I never really had a problem with the Ewoks, actually). I like it because it represents a culmination of the themes introduced in Empire and that there's a lot of subtlety involved in how characters interact with each other, subtlety which extends beyond dialogue and setting. I like it because it brings the nature of the Dark Side more clearly into focus and humanizes the philosophical and moral conflict it epitomizes.
I prefer to think of the original trilogy as something of a singular entity rather than three separate stories, and so Jedi represents the end result of the character development experienced by the three protagonists: Han engenders his sense of heroism, nobility, and self-sacrifice as an extension of his relationship with Leia and friendship with Luke, spurred by his release from the carbonite as a sort of metaphysical resurrection (after all, one of the unspoken recurring thematic elements of Star Wars is rebirth in the sense of "being broken apart and having to put yourself back together again," whether figuratively or literally). Leia experiences a degrading jab at her femininity as per the events in Jabba's palace before reasserting herself as a soldier and focal point of the Rebellion, awakening to the Force as a representation of her self-actualization. And Luke undergoes the most drastic change of the three from A New Hope, confronting a "devil" figure in the personage of the Emperor to tempt him by demonstrating the efficacy of hatred and passion as motivators for change. The scene where he severs Vader's prosthetic hand and resists the Emperor is powerful not just because Luke is heroic, but because he has learned (through experience and not through instruction) the way of the Jedi by tempering emotion with wisdom, passion with focus, and knowledge with morality. The redemption of Vader is an externalization of this inner struggle; in essence, the end of Empire made the central conflict not about Luke, but about Vader's allegiance and, in a very real sense, his soul.
My pretentious film-critic rant aside, I also love how Return of the Jedi is constructed from a narrative and technical perspective. Jabba's realization and presence is wonderfully visceral, the Battle of Endor is visually interesting on all fronts, and the Emperor's simple yet menacing design is particularly effective (the music, as always, is essential to the finished product, particularly the Emperor's deep choral theme). Boba Fett's death was not particularly offensive to me; I feel as though his importance was somewhat overblown after the fact, and that he (like most Star Wars characters) was only a small part of a larger story (I don't even think he was named onscreen in Empire). I feel like Return of the Jedi gets some undue flak, but I still consider it leagues better than the prequel trilogy.
I do feel compelled to mention, however, that my favorite individual scene of any Star Wars film is still in Empire when Yoda raises the X-Wing from the swamp. I don't think I need to explain why.
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Post by ritt on Dec 28, 2015 13:03:22 GMT -6
Jabba's realization and presence is wonderfully visceral, I do feel compelled to mention, however, that my favorite individual scene of any Star Wars film is still in Empire when Yoda raises the X-Wing from the swamp. I don't think I need to explain why. I re-watched the Original Trilogy on my old 80's VHS tapes as preparation for The Force Awakens. One of the things that blew me away, and that I didn't quite appreciate when I was younger, was how R2, Yoda, and Jabba all came off as fully realized, interesting characters, living creatures with their own psychology, emotions, and motivations... despite being portrayed by what were essentially puppets. The deep look of sadness on Yoda's face in the above-mentioned scene was a highlight. Truly latex and foam and scrap metal were spun into gold.
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Post by xerxez on Dec 28, 2015 14:35:07 GMT -6
Yeah, what mindcontrolledsquid said!
My two favorite parts in RotJ are when Luke cheats death on the scaffold over the Sarlacc and where he defeats the Dark Side within himself and disarms himself, refusing to kill Darth Vader.
I think it was the perfect culmination, and I feel it should have been...ahem... The Return of the Jedi.
But they didn't return. Or if they did they went down to nothing in thirty years.
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mindcontrolsquid
Level 4 Theurgist
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man..."
Posts: 118
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Post by mindcontrolsquid on Dec 28, 2015 14:46:11 GMT -6
But they didn't return. Or if they did they went down to nothing in thirty years. Well, the latest film was a bit unclear on this point. For all we know there could be numerous Jedi remaining in hiding, much like the old EU. We'll have to wait and see.
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Post by xerxez on Dec 28, 2015 15:02:31 GMT -6
True. I have some thoughts on that but don't want to give spoilers. I will say that I hope some cool series or miniseries come out of a new life in the Stat Wars universe, like some of the novels. Would love to see the Han Solo trilogy and due to his age you could get away with using another actor.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2015 18:14:05 GMT -6
Well, the latest film was a bit unclear on this point. For all we know there could be numerous Jedi remaining in hiding, much like the old EU. We'll have to wait and see. Just saw it again this morning. The Snoke dude said that if Luke returns, "the Jedi will rise again" which, to me at least, implies that there are Jedi in hiding. The movie really is stingy with it's explanations. Saying only the fewest words to let the audience know what is happening and nothing more. I think this was done so that the writer/director of the next movie isn't tied down to some off hand comment (ala Clone Wars) and can go in any direction.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 29, 2015 19:06:12 GMT -6
Remember, this is Disney. They rarely do anything unintentionally. My thoughts are that a lot of the missing* information will appear in other movies, cartoons, books, toy lines, games, etc.
* "Missing" as in nice-to-know, but not essential to following the plot of the movies.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 29, 2015 22:12:02 GMT -6
The Prequel Trilogy prided itself on its byzantine plot, in which Palpatine was pulling all the strings and pitting armies against each other and there was really no good side to root for and no mystery what was going on. The Sequel Trilogy seems to be returning to the Original Trilogy formula: good guys fighting bad guys, with a few mysteries to be uncovered along the way.
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 29, 2015 23:50:40 GMT -6
For all its many faults, Return of the Jedi still feels like a Star Wars movie to me. That is more than I can say for the prequels or for TFA.
I certainly do not like how TFA treated the original cast. As far as I'm concerned, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, C-3PO, R2-D2, and Lando all lived happily ever after.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 30, 2015 20:15:26 GMT -6
"I certainly do not like how TFA treated the original cast."
Especially Luke. . . .
As far as I'm concerned, Luke's failure to address the Kylo Ren problem makes him equally responsible for Han's death, and for all the other deaths at Kylo Ren's hand that came before. (Your student turns to the Dark Side, so what do you do. . .try to bring him back to the Light? Or put him down if that's not possible? Of course not! You just run away to the edge of the galaxy and hide like a little b***h instead, leaving your former student free to slaughter untold numbers of innocents.)
What a way to tarnish the legacy of a once-great hero. This one point, and it is a major point for me, completely invalidates TFA and its prospective sequels.
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Post by ritt on Dec 30, 2015 21:07:48 GMT -6
Re-watching Empire I was really struck by how much of a peevish man-child Luke was. He was always a very flawed hero.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 31, 2015 1:11:57 GMT -6
Kind of in character for Jedi in general, though - and Obi Wan in particular.
"A Jedi uses the Force for running away and hiding, never for dealing with the big issues! That way leads to increased responsibility and the inevitable slide into bureaucracy."
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