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Post by tetramorph on Dec 5, 2014 17:01:56 GMT -6
I think a lot of people have spent a lot of time describing what makes a DM good or bad, and what you can do to become a better DM.
What I've noticed is that a good session of D&D is not entirely dependent upon the DM. Some of my most memorable sessions were those where the players, well, just played well. Just had a hell of a lot of fun. Put themselves into it and came up with gonzo crazy stuff. Or extremely clever solutions. Or half-baked plans and the dice was good to them. And then we all laughed and talked about it. My experience is that some folks are better at playing D&D than others. I have come away from some sessions that felt flat and, well, kind of boring. And it was not the DM's fault.
So what makes a good D&D player? There may not be one type. That's fine. What are the types and what makes you particularly good at one of those types?
Another question could be: what kinds of things could you teach someone to make theme a better player? Pointers, tips, things to practice, skills to acquire?
I am a firm believer in talent. Some people just pick up some games better and faster than others. That said, I am also a firm believer that anyone of average intelligence or more can become at least a little bit better at any game if someone better than them gives them pointers, tips, explanations, strategies, etc. What would those be for us?
I have some of my own ideas. But I think I'll leave this OP at that. I'd like to start reading y'all's responses. I'll try to weigh in later.
Thanks!
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Post by Merctime on Dec 5, 2014 17:10:17 GMT -6
I don't think that this is something you can teach, of course; But to my mind, a critical point that determines (or will determine) whether a player is 'good' or 'great', is how excited they are to play. I can't say it enough. If a person is willing to slug through the math, get used to rules, and learn how to produce fun ideas... Through enthusiasm... Then that player is destined for greatness in the right gaming group. That's my take, and has been my experience over the years. If they are excited, they will grow in leaps and bounds, just because they are trying hard to, and loving every second of it! Great thread subject, by the way, tetramorph!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 17:11:21 GMT -6
Courage, intelligence, humor, and trust.
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Post by krusader74 on Dec 5, 2014 18:16:54 GMT -6
Here are the Top 10 characteristics that make a bad player IMHO. Some of these bad traits are correctable, others aren't: - Don't know the rules of the game
- Don't know their own character sheet --- don't know their own base chance to hit, modifiers, special abilities, etc.
- Unprepared. Forget their character sheet, dice, pencil, rulebook
- Tardy/absent. People who always show up late or are frequently absent
- Inattentive. Don't have their head in the game, e.g., don't know it's their turn in combat
- not paying attention to anything; blank stare; slack jaw; daydreaming; "out to lunch"; asleep
- always checking their cell phone or updating their fantasy football stats
- Slooowwwwwwww. Spend too much time deciding what to do. Spend too much time adding up their dice and modifiers. Etc.
- Cheaters
- people who put $hit on their character sheets they simply don't have: items, xp, special abilities
- dice mechanics; or those who outright lie about what they rolled
- Bad sports/sore losers: People who get a hot temper when things don't go their way
- Moody. When they come to the game in a bad mood and spread it around to the rest of the group
- Crazy. There's funny crazy, which is OK. Then there's the crazy that derails the whole adventure. Even worse, there's the cra-cra that takes the adventure down a dark, demented, depraved path. This is why I play at public venues, not in my home --- some people are really sick, and I don't want them to know where I live.
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Post by scalydemon on Dec 5, 2014 19:59:02 GMT -6
One who brings an extra quantity of good beer and food to the game. Especially baked goods and Belgian beer
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Post by Red Baron on Dec 5, 2014 23:21:19 GMT -6
The most important thing is just being a fun guy to hang out with in.
First and foremost, d&d really just an excuse for me to get together with buddies. I can't stomach playing d&d, or any game for that matter, with anyone who I wouldn't normally enjoy talking to.
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by otiv on Dec 6, 2014 1:12:23 GMT -6
Good social skills make a good player. A good player should be able to: Listen to others Remember names Know and respect boundaries Tell interesting anecdotes Be a good house guest Maintain personal hygiene
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ty
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Post by ty on Dec 6, 2014 6:29:26 GMT -6
A willingness to have fun and be willing to look beyond all manner of technicalities to have that fun. I second the beer vote. Add salsa.
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Post by Merctime on Dec 6, 2014 10:21:35 GMT -6
Be a good house guest Maintain personal hygiene Excellent, excellent points here. Absolutely agree with the above. Kind of should go without saying, but...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 11:40:34 GMT -6
The most important thing is just being a fun guy to hang out with in. First and foremost, d&d really just an excuse for me to get together with buddies. I can't stomach playing d&d, or any game for that matter, with anyone who I wouldn't normally enjoy talking to. THIS. Other people play poker every third Friday of the month, my pals and me, we play D&D. Nothing particularly fancy about it, just the usual early-30s process of downshifting. More compatible with family life and job obligations than other hobbies, and even low-budget enough that our ladyfriends don't object. It's more about spending time together, than about anything else.
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Post by tetramorph on Dec 7, 2014 13:45:27 GMT -6
Okay, fair enough you guys. The consensus seems to be: decent person, basic social skills, with excitement for the game (even the bean counting) = good player.
Krusader74, your list is both so darned true and so darned funny I laughed out loud while reading. I even had to read it out loud to my wife. By the time I got to the "cra-cra" I just cut-up and couldn't even finish. So darned true! Seriously, I am printing these out and distributing them to my players next time!
I DMed just yesterday. So I had an opportunity to experience different kinds of players.
Another poor kind of player is the one who is too quiet. If you layer on top of that resentment for not being heard (even though resentfully maintaining silence), then you come right back round to Krusader74's #9.
There is another type, it seems to me: What about the min-maxer, the optimizer, the power-gamer, the meta-gamer? How the heck do you deal with that in an 0e context (other than just killing his/her character, which, I must say, is pretty darn tempting!)?
At set up, I limited stacked bonuses to +4. I thought that was pretty generous. That is 20% higher chance to hit, etc. I had a player seriously complain that this was dampening what made D&D fun for him. He talked about the joy of "crafting a character," that, as far as I can tell, when all his other statements were boiled down to their pith, was basically impervious to danger and incapable of risk-taking -- seeing as how nothing would be risky any more. I was so startled I just didn't know how to respond. It feels to me so against the sprit of D&D in general, but 0e in particular. I had no idea how to respond charitably. So I just said "let's talk it out later. For now, my ruling holds."
Help? Thanks guys.
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Post by Merctime on Dec 7, 2014 14:34:33 GMT -6
I don't know what to do if that person won't even try the game unless they get their way perfectly. Perhaps some tactful reminders about, you know, regular life and how that kind of thing never happens, and well, how selfish it is to try to force having better stats than every other human at the table. I've been, as I'm sure most if not all gamers have been, party to such a player more than a few times. I've tried solo sessions with them, with a pre-genned character, to try to show how the game is still fun if your character isn't invincible. Most times, people are mature enough to realize it can be fun still and listen to reason. When they can't, I simply don't offer them a place in my game and politely as I can let them know the reason why (They aren't willing to play a reasonable character and won't budge from being unbeatable). Sorry I can't offer more help ((EDIT again: I should add that over the years, I've had really great friends that I got along wonderfully with, except in gaming, because of stuff like this. We eventually reach a point to agree to disagree, because I simply won't allow that sort of cheating (that is the way I see this sort of unreasonable behavior) in my games at all. It's not fair to me, or the other players, either... And I've never lost a friend over this.))
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Post by dizzysaxophone on Dec 8, 2014 13:52:27 GMT -6
An idea I've tried for people that want to min-max like crazy is to create their character by the book. 3d6 down the line. That or save or die traps work wonderfully. Doesn't matter how high your strength score is when you come upon one of those! My games are typically lbb's + thief, so I generally don't run into much of a problem with that at least.
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Post by xerxez on Jan 2, 2015 21:59:45 GMT -6
Good thread. I like any player who stays engaged with the game and doesn't take it personal when stuff doesn't go their way or other players are acting in character and do things that annoy them.
I have played in games as a player where individuals took perverse delight in deliberately screwing up the DM's plans and scenario. This hasn't happened to me but this one guy always had to prove he was the smartest person present and either he would try and blindside the DM with something that he knew the DM hadn't thought of or else argue how the DM's setting or scene dynamic was illogical or absurd.
My players have sometimes challenged or whined about a thing or two, but often as not, I nod and say, OK, I hadn't thought about that. I suppose you should get a roll or what have you. But I've never yet had such an impossible person in my group.
My favourite players are those who really get into a character.
Another thing I like is when you are using a setting like Tekumel and people make an honest effort to adapt--kind of a drag when you have a player who runs willy nilly over the cultures and customs of an exotic setting--spoils the flavor of the game. They want to be a Tsolyani noble but not roleplay Tsolyani customs and culture.
I do not like it when players dominate a session over others. I also do not like it when veteran players don't back up and give some space and spotlight to neophytes. I have one player who is very good as a player, and likeable as a person. But when I try and throw out some old school wonder and wow to a fledgling player, like letting them get down the basics of dungeon exploring, its all old hat to this fellow and he barges in and starts rattling off a list of what to him are standard character actions. He's pretty sure where the traps and tricks are going to be--he knows where secret doors are likely to be--he knows what magic items might be and most likely are--meanwhile, the new player is sitting there as a spectator. They are not allowed to have that same sense of curiosity and wonder about that magic item, the surprise of the trap or the secret door.
On the other hand, I have a player who gets this. He is also a veteran player, but his two younger boys play in our game sometimes and Dad usually stays in the background, letting the boys discover the things as he and I did when we played D&D together back in Jr. High.
So I think a good player is very mindful of noobies and tries to work with the DM to let them have that kind of experience.
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Post by doublejig on Jan 3, 2015 18:15:11 GMT -6
I don't think that this is something you can teach, of course; But to my mind, a critical point that determines (or will determine) whether a player is 'good' or 'great', is how excited they are to play. I can't say it enough. If a person is willing to slug through the math, get used to rules, and learn how to produce fun ideas... Through enthusiasm... Then that player is destined for greatness in the right gaming group. That's my take, and has been my experience over the years. If they are excited, they will grow in leaps and bounds, just because they are trying hard to, and loving every second of it! Great thread subject, by the way, tetramorph! I've got to agree. And, I'll add, if someone shows up to game table, then the good player, bare bones, is the tenacious one, committed to the mapping, the investigation, and expedition. When he makes his weapon selections and spell choices, he'll be aware. He won't just nod at race and alignment. He's in it for the long haul (and the major score).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 23:34:54 GMT -6
1) Don't be a dick. 2) Bring Gronan a beer.
Okay, we're done.
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Keps
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by Keps on Jan 19, 2015 0:56:04 GMT -6
Having played RPGs for decades helps me help others be good players. Having been the DM for a decade and now just a player helps me help others be good players. Playing with other grogs is like being 14yrs old again. Playing with kids, I usually stay out of magic item/money disputes and just try and help the DM moderate a fair cut. Playing with women/girls is also a challenge, I can't guess what they are going to do..usually ever.
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Post by doublejig2 on Aug 18, 2019 9:04:43 GMT -6
Here are the Top 10 characteristics that make a bad player IMHO. Some of these bad traits are correctable, others aren't: - Don't know the rules of the game
- Don't know their own character sheet --- don't know their own base chance to hit, modifiers, special abilities, etc.
- Unprepared. Forget their character sheet, dice, pencil, rulebook
- Tardy/absent. People who always show up late or are frequently absent
- Inattentive. Don't have their head in the game, e.g., don't know it's their turn in combat
- not paying attention to anything; blank stare; slack jaw; daydreaming; "out to lunch"; asleep
- always checking their cell phone or updating their fantasy football stats
- Slooowwwwwwww. Spend too much time deciding what to do. Spend too much time adding up their dice and modifiers. Etc.
- Cheaters
- people who put $hit on their character sheets they simply don't have: items, xp, special abilities
- dice mechanics; or those who outright lie about what they rolled
- Bad sports/sore losers: People who get a hot temper when things don't go their way
- Moody. When they come to the game in a bad mood and spread it around to the rest of the group
- Crazy. There's funny crazy, which is OK. Then there's the crazy that derails the whole adventure. Even worse, there's the cra-cra that takes the adventure down a dark, demented, depraved path. This is why I play at public venues, not in my home --- some people are really sick, and I don't want them to know where I live.
10. was priceless. I'd add, you've got to want to be there, pounding it out at the game table. Good players fight for the right to a good game session.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 18, 2019 9:24:46 GMT -6
An interesting thread, and I'm surprised that I didn't respond to it the first time around. Anyway, I think that my answer would change a bit depending upon the era of play (and the rules set that goes along with that). In other words, for an early OD&D player I think that knowing the rules isn't a big deal but for a 5E player (for example) it's pretty much mandatory. Early rules sets were designed where the DM is king and knowing rules isn't that important. I know, because I played for years with players who really knew nothing, never bought a rulebook, and often had to get me to remind them of what kind of dice to roll in what situations. And they still had fun, and they were still very enthusiastic and good players. I told them they didn't need to know the rules that they took that to heart. They told me what they wanted me to do and I dealt with the mechanics of how it worked totally behind the screen. Nowadays, players in my 5E game are expected to read the parts that pertain to their character (chosen race, and class options at the appropriate level) so that they can get their part right and allow me to focus on the DM stuff. I think it comes down to the extra layers of rules in the system, where if I haven't played a particular class I might never have read the actual rules for that class. That moves the burden onto the shoulders of the player, and a good player will respond by knowing what he can and cannot do. New players are given a little slack, of course, but they are expected to catch up rules-wise pretty quickly or the entire table will start to lose patience with that player. So I guess I might have a few thoughts about being a "good player" in my campaign: 1. A good player knows the rules to the extend that he or she is expected to know the rules. 2. A good player brings enthusiasm to the table, and pays attention while the game is being played so that he or she is ready to act on their turn. 3. A good player knows how to share the stage; not everyone is the star every adventure but everyone wants to have a good time.
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Post by doublejig2 on Aug 18, 2019 9:58:30 GMT -6
Agree with those. I also think the physical toll at the game table is underestimated. Sure, adventurers do things and go to places that can't be easily conveyed to others. And, there's a cost when adventurers are injured let alone when they're slain. It's right across the player's gut. Players that are on task maybe aren't talking so much at the game table. Concentration. Realism? Always the dice don't lie.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2019 13:58:24 GMT -6
Just tell me what you want to do, don't worry about the rules.
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Post by strangebrew on Aug 18, 2019 15:13:58 GMT -6
In the dungeon, classic D&D style, a player who is quick to respond, careful, and thinks of clever ideas to minimize risk and maximize treasure. Out of the dungeon, a player who is willing to actually take risks and leap into an adventure. I realize that the first and second seem to contradict each other. Pro-risk enough to take on an adventure, but careful when seeing it through.
In my current AD&D 2nd ed campaign, the players are so obsessed with money and survival that they seem hesitant to even adventure at all. They are viewing the characters as extensions of themselves, only willing to do anything if there is a great reward and minimal risk. "I wouldn't risk my life by going into those sewers, why should Blurp the Bold?" I'm trying to shift their perspective to thinking of their character as being in a book or movie - what would be the most interesting path the character would take? No one wants to watch a movie about a bunch of dudes sitting in the tavern turning down adventures waiting for an easy gig. At times it really drags things down and gets frustrating, since this is supposed to be an action and adventure game, and I don't want to railroad/force them into an adventure out of spite.
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Post by grodog on Aug 18, 2019 16:14:29 GMT -6
Anthony Huso wrote an excellent piece in his blog about what makes a good player; see www.thebluebard.com/post/learning-to-dm-by-playing-a-character-right and skip to The List about 3/4 of the way down the page if you're not interested in reading the full article: 1. DM Your Character 2. Engage with the World 3. Embrace the Drama 4. Learn the Rules Allan.
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lige
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Post by lige on Aug 19, 2019 0:13:14 GMT -6
Anthony Huso wrote an excellent piece in his blog about what makes a good player; see www.thebluebard.com/post/learning-to-dm-by-playing-a-character-right and skip to The List about 3/4 of the way down the page if you're not interested in reading the full article: 1. DM Your Character 2. Engage with the World 3. Embrace the Drama 4. Learn the Rules Allan. That’s a good article - it really covers all I want out of my players (and are good goals when I am a player). The only thing I could add would be how some players can not only do these things but also support/encourage others to be better players. It’s a little ineffable but group dynamics really are a huge factor in how a game goes and what the players accomplish.
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Post by grodog on Aug 19, 2019 9:51:27 GMT -6
That’s a good article - it really covers all I want out of my players (and are good goals when I am a player). The only thing I could add would be how some players can not only do these things but also support/encourage others to be better players. It’s a little ineffable but group dynamics really are a huge factor in how a game goes and what the players accomplish. That's a great point, Eli!---being able to support the group's PCs' goals and each other as players is an equally-critical element in the game being fun for all of the players, including the DM. Allan.
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Post by delta on Aug 19, 2019 10:26:08 GMT -6
In my current AD&D 2nd ed campaign, the players are so obsessed with money and survival that they seem hesitant to even adventure at all. They are viewing the characters as extensions of themselves, only willing to do anything if there is a great reward and minimal risk. "I wouldn't risk my life by going into those sewers, why should Blurp the Bold?" I'm trying to shift their perspective to thinking of their character as being in a book or movie - what would be the most interesting path the character would take? No one wants to watch a movie about a bunch of dudes sitting in the tavern turning down adventures waiting for an easy gig. At times it really drags things down and gets frustrating, since this is supposed to be an action and adventure game, and I don't want to railroad/force them into an adventure out of spite. For what it's worth, the way I started my current campaign was to emphasize that the PCs are mostly ex-mercenaries, with no job prospects, and highlight/slam them with the monthly upkeep expenses; indeed, desperate that their money is about to run out and won't survive when it does. (Not adventuring as a kind of inflationary risk.) I thought that was the most obvious/mundane/real-world expectation, but my players took it as a piece of auteurist socio-economic-commentary, and ran in the direction of the first treasure rumor. Or really my players are fabulous and they probably would have worked with the campaign towards adventures no matter what. :-)
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Post by peterlind on Aug 19, 2019 11:51:06 GMT -6
As an OD&D player of some success back in the day, I have to fully agree with the Anthony Husso article that was posted by grodog. I would like to add: The more you and your character become engaged with the GM's setting and game, the likelihood of happy events (serendipity) for your character will also increase. All you have to do is show genuine interest in the GM's setting and game, become involved with it, interact with it. The GM, who has put a lot of time and effort into developing his or her world, will appreciate this.
Always be ready to play your character by the rules and to embrace your character's role as part of a group seeking mutual success. Understand your role, and your limits, as a player, but also understand the role of the GM. As time goes along, you might be able to subtly bend or even break the rules with your DM's permission and rulings. In this regard, when you explain your character's actions, always explain in natural language rather than in game terms. Then let your GM interpret what is to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2019 20:53:29 GMT -6
In my current AD&D 2nd ed campaign, the players are so obsessed with money and survival that they seem hesitant to even adventure at all. They are viewing the characters as extensions of themselves, only willing to do anything if there is a great reward and minimal risk. "I wouldn't risk my life by going into those sewers, why should Blurp the Bold?" I'm trying to shift their perspective to thinking of their character as being in a book or movie - what would be the most interesting path the character would take? No one wants to watch a movie about a bunch of dudes sitting in the tavern turning down adventures waiting for an easy gig. At times it really drags things down and gets frustrating, since this is supposed to be an action and adventure game, and I don't want to railroad/force them into an adventure out of spite. Because as a ploughman, Father's wage was six silver pence per year. Thomas the Bastard and his friends went down last week. Two came back. They had over twenty pounds Sterling between them. I'll risk Death rather than spend my life grubbing in dung like my father.
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Post by peterlind on Aug 19, 2019 23:33:53 GMT -6
A couple of extra comments:
What I am talking about here is the intangibles. In short, if the other players like you and your character, if your character becomes an interesting,dependable, contributing member to the group, then they are more likely to raise the funds for a raise dead at the local temple. If the GM becomes interested in your character, then you are more likely to find that interesting item that fits well with your character. . . .
You should use natural language to describe your actions, but also before you say "I leap across the chasm", you might want to ask the GM some questions to see if you can get a rough idea of your chance of success. However, by the way, if you are confronted with a situation like having to leap across a chasm, then you will want to explore every other avenue. There is a probably an easier way around if you look hard enough for it. . . there is a famous module with this for an object lesson . . .
Here is a classic example of using natural language with your thief character going for a backstab: "I sneak up behind the critter [whatever] so that I can stab it with my sword from behind." In my experience playing thieves back in the day, you would need to get your character into position so that he or she could skirt the battle area to get behind an opponent. Though you are only describing your action, the GM will usually require this to take 1-2 rounds and a move silently roll. You may then attempt the backstab attack. However, some GM's may allow you to do it without taking extra time, so, again, you just leave it up to the GM . . .
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Post by waysoftheearth on Aug 20, 2019 2:22:22 GMT -6
In my current AD&D 2nd ed campaign, the players are so obsessed with money and survival that they seem hesitant to even adventure at all. They are viewing the characters as extensions of themselves, only willing to do anything if there is a great reward and minimal risk. "I wouldn't risk my life by going into those sewers, why should Blurp the Bold?" Similar to other posts above, my reaction is: they gotta need tha money to survive! If the players absolutely insist on inaction, so be it. You could "zoom out" to campaign time for a bit. Have 2d6 months pass by in a flash. Or maybe its seasons or even years? Maybe throw withstand adversity checks to see who froze to death over the last over winter? Then Springtime comes around again. What now?
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