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Post by geoffrey on Dec 23, 2008 15:26:30 GMT -6
Has this project been put on the back-burner?
I'm willing to help de-Tekumelize the mere 71 pages. Like I said before, if we have 10 people who each do one page a day...
We'd be essentially done in a week. (Even with mishaps and interruptions, it could be done within a month.) Then show it to the good prof. and ask his permission to publish it (free PDF, and for cost on lulu) as a 100% open set of rules for anyone to do with as he wished.
No OGL.
No WotC.
No lawyers.
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Post by calithena on Dec 23, 2008 16:40:01 GMT -6
I have not had any time to devote to this. I do have some thoughts on what I would do, which slightly diverge from Geoffrey's. (Such as including alternate 3d6 stat generation with the d100 baseline, for example.) Badger, do you think if some motivated folks just did this and you and I presented it to the prof, he would be willing to go with it?
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Post by badger2305 on Dec 23, 2008 19:32:50 GMT -6
I have not had any time to devote to this. I do have some thoughts on what I would do, which slightly diverge from Geoffrey's. (Such as including alternate 3d6 stat generation with the d100 baseline, for example.) Badger, do you think if some motivated folks just did this and you and I presented it to the prof, he would be willing to go with it? Yes. |
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 23, 2008 19:51:21 GMT -6
I would be happy to help, since I believe I have EPT already scanned in as a OCR text file. Am I right in assuming that this text file can be manipulated in Word? If so, our work is half done! ;D IMO, the next step is to simply de-Tekumelize everything. After the de-Tekumelizing is finished, then we can worry about adding stuff. Of course, we would need to agree on what exactly is Tekumelani. I, for example, think the spells can remain pretty much as-is. The monsters, on the other hand, I regard as pure Tekumel. Thus my first inclination is to simply not include ANY of the monsters. For magic items, only the D&D-style magic weapons and armor (plus spell scrolls) seem non-Tekumelani. The other magic stuff (such as all the eyes) I'd delete as Tekumelani. Of course, none of my opinions is set in stone.  |
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 24, 2008 17:10:31 GMT -6
I have the time and desire to start de-Tekumelizing the EPT rulebook. Badger, if you have a copy that I could alter in Word, I'd be willing to start the day after Christmas. I'd hate to type from scratch, especially since I'd undoubtedly create typos. It's also be a chore to re-type the tables in the rulebook.
I think that a Swords of the Steel Throne (PERFECT name, by the way, Calithena) game would be awesome for any of a number of projects that I can imagine.
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Post by dwayanu on Dec 24, 2008 20:59:23 GMT -6
Oi! I've got intense ideological objections, but I don't reckon anyone is gonna pay 'em much mind, so ...
Right on leaving out the Tekumel bestiary. Considering the host of other retro-clones, I'm dubious about the spells as well (unless you actually wanted to preserve EPT, in which case never mind the whole enterprise).
Not that I've looked into it but "filing off the serial numbers" might entail some changes in the names or descriptions of skills.
Will you substitute "Wisdom" for "Psychic Ability"?
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Post by badger2305 on Jan 1, 2009 12:22:17 GMT -6
Actually, I would suggest "Magical Ability" for "Psychic Ability" - it's more "true" to what Prof. Barker intended, FWIW. He's always thought "wisdom" was a player attribute, not so much a character one.
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Jan 21, 2009 14:02:17 GMT -6
Hello all. I just stumbled on this and am rather intrigued. Any movement?
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 21, 2009 14:41:49 GMT -6
Yes indeed. I've been going through the EPT rulebook. It has 103 pages, and I've de-Tekumelized the first 25 pages so far. Of course, this is only a first-draft.
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Jan 27, 2009 15:38:33 GMT -6
Awesome.
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Apr 3, 2009 2:07:03 GMT -6
How's it going , Geoffrey?
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Post by snorri on Apr 3, 2009 4:04:20 GMT -6
Yes, I was asking myself the same question.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 3, 2009 8:55:56 GMT -6
What with another project and real life, I'm afraid that I've stalled-out on p. 25. If anybody else would like to help, please contact Calithena or badger! I'm ready to hand-off the football for awhile. |
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 3, 2009 16:56:15 GMT -6
Geoffrey: Send me what you've got, and I'll do it for a bit.
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Apr 4, 2009 2:18:53 GMT -6
I might could help, although I'm a little unclear on what needs to be done.
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Apr 14, 2009 15:14:18 GMT -6
No?
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 14, 2009 16:46:38 GMT -6
Distracted by Dave Arneson's passing. Mind if we pick this up after the memorial next week?
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Apr 15, 2009 2:10:10 GMT -6
More than alright.
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Post by aldarron on Apr 28, 2009 19:11:06 GMT -6
I just want to chime in and say I'm 100% for this project. There have been a few comments suggesting that its pointless and I completely disagree. Just because WOTC has condescended to allow OD&D clones via the OGL doesn't mean its completly secure. People may think otherwise but I'm sure that they could revoke the OGL anytime they wanted, at least for the creation of any new material. In any case, being free of any legal and financial fetters to WOTC is a noble goal. Yes, anybody could write a new game from scratch, but EPT is an already established game with a long history and the idea of redacting out the core rules to create a basic rule system that could then be expended into any number of worlds, campaigns and settings that would all be essentially compatible, while claiming the long history of EPT is something that would have a broad appeal not just to gamers but to writers and supplement developers. In fact it could be a way to introduce old style gaming to a whole new audience, not just us grognards and our nephews.
Now the one danger I see in this project is that too many cooks might spoil it. I mean it is important to avoid bickering over what should be added in and just keep it as simple and true to the original as possible. As was mentioned, supplements are great places for additions to the game.
As to nuts and bolts; we don't need another game featuring Tolkiens hobbits and elves as character classes in the core rules, and we don't really need another monster manual. It's not necessary to put much in the way of races and monsters and mythos in the core rules - that's the point of de Tekumelizing - that stuff can be created for specific settings in later supplements. Instead what you can and should put in are rules or guidlines for making non human character races, and leave in a few of the tekumel races, renamed if you like or left as is, as examples. Likewise for monsters; leave a few Tekumel examples in and also a handfull from mythology - enough to get a group started on a game. Otherwise provide basic guidlines on monsters and leave the creation of more up to the players and supplement writers.
I do think its important (and fairly easy with the find function on a word processor) to check if there are sections that are word for word from the LBB's. I disagree with Geoffrey on that because I do think it would be prudent to reword them a bit so there is no chance of any conflict over copyright infringement. That really shouldn't be difficult to do.
Lastly, I'll admit that I don't have any experience with EPT. I don't own any of the books nor have I played the game, but I would nevertheless be willing to help out on any part of this project if there was a need. Although as an Anthropologist/Archaeologist Barkers Tekumel really intrigues me, I'm really more into the classical medieval fantasy setting, as I think most players are and I think it would be really great to have available and be able to use the classic ruleset from EPT to play those sort of campaigns. So lets just keep it simple, in the vein of the microlite folks.
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Post by Falconer on Apr 28, 2009 19:43:59 GMT -6
But wouldn't you have to enter a licensing arrangement with Barker every time you wanted to publish something for it? It sounds like people are assuming he would immediately release it into the public domain--which would be strange. Or am I missing something?
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Post by aldarron on Apr 29, 2009 5:23:48 GMT -6
But wouldn't you have to enter a licensing arrangement with Barker every time you wanted to publish something for it? It sounds like people are assuming he would immediately release it into the public domain--which would be strange. Or am I missing something? Of course. Its his property so any follow on products actually published would have to be approved and a portion of any profits would go to him according to whatever he decides, just as with any RPG. I don't see that thats either a problem or a bad thing. There is a big difference between dealing with one person who has everything to gain and nothing to lose and a megacompany who is not interested in supporting the OD&D scene. |
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Post by aldarron on Apr 29, 2009 5:49:57 GMT -6
While I'm at it, I'll say something about the name. I doubt if Calithena really intended to call the project "Swords of the Steel Throne" (what steel throne?), and ultimately any name would be Dr. Barkers call of course. However, since it was Calithena's idea, I think its up to him to pick the "working title" I have three suggestions 1) Swords and Empires 2) Swords, Spells, and Empires 3) Dungeons and Empires I kinda like the last one best since it evokes both D&D and EPT but is really its own thing and suggests a pretty broad game. But whatever. |
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 29, 2009 8:04:29 GMT -6
Dungeons & Thrones?
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Post by aldarron on Apr 29, 2009 17:24:46 GMT -6
Nice one! I like that too. |
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Post by Falconer on Apr 30, 2009 1:37:17 GMT -6
Of course. Its his property so any follow on products actually published would have to be approved and a portion of any profits would go to him according to whatever he decides, just as with any RPG. I don't see that thats either a problem or a bad thing. There is a big difference between dealing with one person who has everything to gain and nothing to lose and a megacompany who is not interested in supporting the OD&D scene. Sorry to be a big pain, but I still feel like I'm missing something. You're saying it's better to give money to "one person" than to do it for free via the "megacompany's" OGL? |
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Post by aldarron on Apr 30, 2009 11:51:25 GMT -6
Of course. Its his property so any follow on products actually published would have to be approved and a portion of any profits would go to him according to whatever he decides, just as with any RPG. I don't see that thats either a problem or a bad thing. There is a big difference between dealing with one person who has everything to gain and nothing to lose and a megacompany who is not interested in supporting the OD&D scene. Sorry to be a big pain, but I still feel like I'm missing something. You're saying it's better to give money to "one person" than to do it for free via the "megacompany's" OGL? Yes. Or I should say, there are definetly times when I find it preferrable to pay for something, or give support to something I believe in, than to take a hand out from something or someone else I don't support (or trust in the case of WOTC). But I think if you are missing a point, its not about licensing and profits and such, its about the opportunity to promote and develop an important part of OD&D, that just happens to be free of WOTC control. The Tekumel rules are the earliest published set of rules, except for the LBB's and they represent a path with only minimal influence from Gary Gygax. Tekumel was published before Greyhawk and can definetly be seen as an alternative path the game might have followed had Mr. Gygax never written Greyhawk and later AD&D. In some sense, its a way of returning to the early days. Mr. Barker's interests lie with his Tekumel but others might have developed medieval fantasy settings using those rules. All that is being suggested here is that it is still possible to do that by extracting and making available a generic rule base - which some may or may not find preferrable to the other OD&D inspired rule sets - from the EPT rulebook. It is also clearly appealing to a number of people to not be beholden to WOTC, a company that not everyone thinks highly of, and to know that, as long as Mr. Barker okays the use of the rules, the sky is the limit. If there is one thing that is true of games and gamers, it is that personal preferences abound. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on May 1, 2009 19:43:45 GMT -6
People may think otherwise but I'm sure that they could revoke the OGL anytime they wanted, at least for the creation of any new material. It is my understanding that they cannot, even if they wanted to. In fact, I believe that if they could have, they certainly would have at this point, already; in order to support 4e more completely. This is why they put pressure on publishers that they cannot publish a particular line of product both under the OGL and the new agreement they created with 4e; to pressure people to stop using the OGL. |
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Post by badger2305 on May 3, 2009 16:44:46 GMT -6
Hey, everybody - just a quick note. As far as I know at this point, I'm the guy currently managing this project. Now that the semester is over (and I'm gotten past Dave Arneson's funeral), I would like to know who wants to help out. Please PM me with your contact info. My plan at this point is to take sections of the old EPT rules and send them out as electronic files for people to work on and then send back to me for review.
While it is still out there and being thought about, I am thinking that the "Swords of the Steel Throne" (or whatever name Prof. Barker wants to give it) will be made available through DriveThruRPG. This might also turn into a POD product as well.
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on May 3, 2009 23:26:27 GMT -6
Oh, put me down as one voting for a name change from Swords of the Steel Throne.
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Aug 5, 2009 5:40:05 GMT -6
Updates? I'm still volunteering to help out.
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