Unknown of the Isle (spoiler alert!)

[foxroe]

I finally broke down and bought "Isle of the Unknown". What a fantastic product and setting!

I was intrigued by some of the hints that Geoffrey had dropped in another (ill-fated) thread, so I started diving into it...

He had mentioned that there were 13 "zodiac" mages and that there was something deliberate about their positioning on the island, but here is what I can't figure out:

I assume that the thirteen mages are those that are illustrated throughout the book; however, all but one of them fit in the classical Greek zodiac.

If one were to plot their locations on the map, it can be seen that they are arranged in the correct zodiac order along the elliptical plane, which makes either the healer or the winged archer "Scorpio". At first I thought that the healer was supposed to be Scorpio because that sign has some loose association with the healing arts, but then I realized that he actually represents Ophiucus (the Snake Bearer).

The constellation of Ophiucus also lies on the elliptical, between Libra and Scorpio, so it is considered a "13th" sign by some astrologers (sidreal astrology).

But then that would make the winged archeress Scorpio, wouldn't it?

Something else possibly of note, the hex in which she resides produced the scent of peppermint, which is also the "smell" of the Aries-mage's hex. Both hexes also share hawthorn trees. And both mages wear red.

Has anyone else puzzled this or anything else out?

[paramander]

A fascinating exercise. Let's review what we know about each sign of the zodiac and their associations:

Ares (fire)- the metal iron, colors dark red and black, rubies, oak trees, sage, blood, wolves, bears, the planet Mars
Taurus (earth)- the metal copper, topaz, pine, sandalwood, lakes, bulls, doves, swans, the planet Venus, the color pink plus green or blue
Gemini (air), the metal mercury, onyx, willow trees, orchids, springs of fresh water, apes and monkeys, the ibis, the planet Mercury, the color yellow with orange or silver
Cancer, (water)- the metal silver, emeralds, the lotus, frankincense, rain, dogs, the Moon, the color silver or pearl white
Leo (fire)- gold, opals, sunflowers, myrrh, wine, lions, hawks, the Sun, the color orange with gold or indigo
Virgo (earth)- the metal mercury, diamonds, palm trees, the essence of the spice mace, rivers, the birds species of swallows, the planet Mercury, the color yellowish green with cream or brown
Libra (air)- copper, jade, yew trees, aloe essence, beer, sparrows, the planet Venus, the color blue with pastel pink or green
Scorpio (water)- iron, the gem cornelian, oak, sulphur, blood, horses, wolves, dark red and black or purple, the planet Mars (Pluto for you modernists)
Ophiuchus ()- the cadeuceus, vibrant colors, snakes, medicine
Sagittarius (fire)- brass, sapphires, popular trees, cloves, eagles, the planet Jupiter, the color purple with dark blue or dark red
Capricorn (earth)- lead, black opals, ash trees, animal musk, crocodiles, lizards, the planet Saturn, the color black, with brown or navy
Aquarius (air)- lead, aquamarines, elm trees, roses, lakes, frogs, snakes, the planet Saturn (or Uranus), bright blue with turquoise or yellow
Pisces (water)- bronze, pearls, beech trees, nutmeg, the sea, hawks, peacocks, the planet Jupiter ( or Neptune), sea-green with violet or blue

Now let us assign magic-users to zodiac signs:
Ares -1302 man with golden fleeced sheep (6th-level)
Taurus- 1803 woman with herd of milk- white cattle (6th-level)
Gemini- 2006 twin young men with mercury arms and armor (11th-level)
Cancer- 2110 woman with crabs and crab-arms (10th-level)
Leo-1913 man with lion-head and lions (10th-level)
Virgo-1614 maiden with cats and butterflies (10th-level)
Libra-1115 man with magic balance scale (9th-level)
Scorpio-0813 woman with eagle’s wings (9th-level)
Ophiuchus-0611 old man, healer with snake (8th-level)
Sagittarius-0509 mounted man who can speak with animals (8th-level)
Capricorn-0606 woman with gray and green goats (7th-level)
Aquarius-0704 man with magic amphora (7th-level)
Pisces-1002 crone who turns others into fish (7th-level)

Based on what I know, the Zodiac mages work out fine, with the exception of Scorpio, who does not fit in with the correspondences I work with. Maybe Geoffrey has a different source of correspondences? That have changed through time and place. I wish I had more for Ophiuchus. Notice that these magicians are nearly always the most powerful ones, compared to those remaining? The other magic-users don't have a unified theme. Indeed some are foreign, Oriental. Could these Zodiac mages be older, while the others are visitors, interlopers, and knowledge seekers? Who better to seek wisdom from? Is there even a higher level of master?

I do know that Geoffrey has mentioned the star Sirius as important. We know that Sirius is the star of Wisdom (Soth) that illuminates the soul/immaterial self, that a great teacher(s) came from it, that it is the brightest of stars, and is actually a binary star, a fact realized early on by the Dogon people, well before modern peoples. See the Sirius Mystery if you want the full story.

Sirius is also not part of the Zodiac. It is important for different

We also know the statues are baroquely Classical. But not Roman or Greek. Well, why not Atlantean? Maybe they belong to that sunken land. Maybe the Isle IS Atlantis, or what is left of it, or maybe a refuge where the post-deluge survivors fled to.

I'm thinking so far that Atlantis was sunk by a cabal of arrogant mages playing fast and loose with their power, with one of their number counseling wisdom, but ignored. Most of the island sank, but the wise one, let's call him Thoth-Hermes, cast a might spell to keep some of the island above the waves. He is the mightiest magician around (12th level), and the statues are those mages responsible for the catastrophe, turned to stone as punishment. The Zodiac mages maintain the magic sites that keep the Isle above the waves, acting as a giant ritual circle for Thoth-Hermes, who labors on a mountain top (or who IS a mountain peak) to focus those energies. The center of the circle of Zodiac mages is around hexes 1208, 1308, 1309, 1408.

The clerics are from the land across the water, but not so far away (The Holy Roman Empire perhaps) seeking to purify a pagan land, or to corrupt it's power for the great demon, who may have tempted those magicians of Atlantis.

Just some thoughts. I'm not happy with all of it, but it is something to start with.

[geoffrey]

Yes, a thousand times yes. You guys have dug-up a lot of secrets of the Isle!

1. The 13 Zodiac mages indeed correspond to the 13 Zodiac signs of sidereal astrology. (The "extra" 13th sign being Ophiuchus.)

2. The winged archeress is indeed "Scorpio", but under an alternate (older, perhaps?) conception of that constellation as that of an Eagle ("Aquila").

3. The locations of the habitations of the 13 Zodiac mages indeed fall on a circle, with the order of the mages in the circle following that of the Zodiac.

4. I do in fact consider that the Isle of the Unknown is "the last remnant of foundered Atlantis". (See Legend #20 on p. 7.) I further think of the magic statues as Atlantean.

5. In terms of the astrological correspondences I used, I borrowed my mother's astrology books. (I don't remember titles or authors.) She and some of her siblings have been into astrology for a very long time, inherited from my maternal grandmother who was an astrologer.

6. I do in fact conceive of the Zodiac mages as being ancient natives of the Isle, while the other mages are indeed "visitors, interlopers, and knowledge seekers". I gave Jason Rainville (the artist who did the Zodiac mages) instuctions to this effect: "Make them look like they could have been in Ray Harryhausen's Jason and the Argonauts film (to capture that Atlantis vibe). I have put very specific flowers, trees, stones, colors, etc. in the descriptions. Please make sure you follow those to the letter. For example, don't just put in some generic trees. Make sure you put in the exact sorts of trees in the descriptions. This is very important." And he of course did so. It was a real joy to receive his finished works of art one by one.

7. Robert Temple's The Sirius Mystery is indeed a factor in the Isle, but independent of the Zodiac mages.

8. The clerics are basically Knights Hospitallers from early 14th-century Europe. The isle itself is where Corsica is.

It's a lot of fun to put this stuff in the book, and to have gamers puzzle it out. I made it unobtrusive so as to be there for those who wanted to dig a little deeper, but able to be ignored by those who just want to bash some chimeric monsters.

[kesher]

Um, this is AWSOME. That is all.

[paramander]

It is nice to get feedback! I bought the book and pdf a while back, and was dying to use it, but did not think that the Lamentations rules and adventures fit with my interpretation (I love them, however). I have to say, the cover art made me buy the book. It spoke to me of a vibrant, romantic, dark fairy tale along the lines of Lyonesse, plus all the late 19th century fairy collections I read as a youngster.

I intend to address not only the magicians, but the clerics, monsters, statues, and towns in turn, as time permits, and welcome other views and interpretations.

[paramander]

I have a thought that after the deluge, the island was mostly depopulated, but the Phoeniceans, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Franks, Moors, and Vikings would settle the island in turn, adding layers of civilization in turn , depositing their detritus of temples, shrines, palaces, halls of justice, roads and waterways on the shores of the Isle. Of course, I am placing the island in the Bay of Biscay, and stealing from Vance, so there.

I never looked at the rumors section! See the Atlantis rumor now, and it like that my thoughts ran similar to yours, Geoffry. I also like the thirteen kingdoms idea. I assume than the submerged parts of the island are probably less than what remains (there is a limit to how big Atlantis can get in either Biscay or the Mediterranean), so it is not unreasonable to assume that the regions of each kingdom can still be represented on the existing island. Each town is the seat of a kingdom, each King essentially holding what is within a hex of the town. The twin-towns adjacent to each other represent larger, more populous and powerful, kingdoms. The city, Ys, is suitably ancient, and pre-Atlantean. Hmmm. Where did those Fish-lizard-spirits land again?

For those who don't appreciate the difference between the Old World and the New, most city sites in the old world are OLD, and gave been inhabited in one form or another despite the passage of kingdoms and rulers. In the new world we just shrug and build elsewhere most often.

[foxroe]

Good stuff, paramander! And thanks for the confirmations Geoffrey!

I've been reading C. A. Smith's Averoigne cycle and I can really see the influence on the Isle (ancient landscape dotted with villages, dark-fey woodlands, and Greco-Roman ruins; liberal use of diabolists and pious aspergillum-wielding priests; unique "monsters").

Speaking of monsters...

The creatures of IotU are indeed very chimeric, being random conglomerations of animal parts and other oddities. The classical Greek version of the Chimera was imagined much the same way: lion-like with a goat head growing out of its back, and a snake for a tail (or lion-head/goat-body/dragon-tail according to Homer). Oh yeah, and it breathed fire.

The mythical Chimera (by most accounts) was one of several offspring of Typhon and Echidna, themselves menageries of chaos in appearance. Typhon, a giant wing-covered humanoid with dragon heads and serpent tails, was the "Father of all Monsters" in Greek myth. Likewise, Echidna (an immortal human-snake hybird) was the "Mother of all Monsters". The name Typhon comes from the Greek verb "to make smoke, fume, singe, burn slowly", while Echidna means "She-viper".

All of this fire and serpent imagery certainly smacks of things Satanic. Could he or his minions be "pumping out" the creatures of the Isle? If so, for what purpose? To harry and curse man-kind perhaps? Are these creatures always hostile? Are they Chaotically aligned?

Thinking of the monsters of the Isle in this light changes my perception of them. They seem less colorfully cartoon-like, and more malignant and sanity-wracking...

[geoffrey]

Oct 13, 2014 9:25:40 GMT -6 foxroe said:

The creatures of IotU are indeed very chimeric, being random conglomerations of animal parts and other oddities. The classical Greek version of the Chimera was imagined much the same way: lion-like with a goat head growing out of its back, and a snake for a tail (or lion-head/goat-body/dragon-tail according to Homer). Oh yeah, and it breathed fire.

The mythical Chimera (by most accounts) was one of several offspring of Typhon and Echidna, themselves menageries of chaos in appearance. Typhon, a giant wing-covered humanoid with dragon heads and serpent tails, was the "Father of all Monsters" in Greek myth. Likewise, Echidna (an immortal human-snake hybird) was the "Mother of all Monsters". The name Typhon comes from the Greek verb "to make smoke, fume, singe, burn slowly", while Echidna means "She-viper".

All of this fire and serpent imagery certainly smacks of things Satanic. Could he or his minions be "pumping out" the creatures of the Isle? If so, for what purpose? To harry and curse man-kind perhaps? Are these creatures always hostile? Are they Chaotically aligned?

Thinking of the monsters of the Isle in this light changes my perception of them. They seem less colorfully cartoon-like, and more malignant and sanity-wracking...

Yes, indeed.

The monsters on the Isle of the Unknown are all chimeric in the sense of "monsters that are conglomerations of real-world animals, like the Chimera". I have a hard time thinking of a monster from Greek myth that isn't a conglomeration of real-world animals:

Chimera (goat, lion, and dragon)
Minotaur (bull and man)
Harpy (bird and woman)
Medusa (woman and snakes)
Pegasus (horse and eagle)
Griffon (lion and eagle)
Hippogriff (eagle and horse)
etc.

And do you remember Homer's description of Scylla from book 12 of the Odyssey? Here is Fitzgerald's translation:

But that is the den of Skylla, where she yaps
abominably, a newborn whelp's cry,
though she is huge and monstrous. God or man,
no one could look on her in joy. Her legs--
and there are twelve--are like great tentacles,
unjointed, and upon her serpent necks
are borne six heads like nightmares of ferocity,
with triple serried rows of fangs and deep
gullets of black death. Half her length, she sways
her heads in air, outside her horrid cleft,
hunting the sea around that promontory
for dolphins, dogfish, or what bigger game
thundering Amphitrite feeds in thousands.
And no ship's company can claim
to have passed her without loss and grief; she takes,
from every ship, one man for every gullet.

(BTW, in my Isle of the Unknown campaign, all the chimeric monsters described in the book are hostile.)

[foxroe]

So why are there no undead? I'm curious, because I would run this setting as a traditional stand-alone OD&D campaign (sans demi-humans and humanoids), so there would be plenty of undead shambling about (thinking vampires, shadows, and animated corpses a la Averoigne).

My assumption is simply that Geoffrey wanted the setting to be focused on his weird chimeric creatures, and not on more traditional tropes.

[foxroe]

Thread necromancy!

Speaking of necromancy, what's up with the undead-less isle, geoffrey ?

I've been digging into the IotU again recently and thinking about using it for a campaign setting for some new players. I'm also re-reading B1, B3, X2, and some other modules/adventures and thinking how great they would work on the Isle. But, before I embark upon this seldom traveled path, I still have lingering questions for which I have not the answers...

I know that I can just fill in the blanks so to speak, but I am curious how your campaign turned out and what further mysteries, enigmas, and esoterica you would be willing to divulge.

Exempli gratia:
- The aforementioned absence of undead - I'm not seeing any clues in the text, so is this just creator fiat?
- Sirius - I had originally thought that it had something to do with Sirius being a Behenian fixed star, but then why not the other stars? Plus, you mentioned that it had nothing to do with the Zodiac...
- Origin of the chimeric beasts - It would be easy to say some "Mother of Beasts" mythological figure, or "the Devil did it!", but I'm sure it's something less expected. Escapees from the dungeons of a mad demi-god perhaps?
- Speaking of which... any mega-dungeons on your Isle?

[foxroe]

Did some serious Sirius digging on the inter-webs today. Probably not worth its weight in e-ink, but I thought I'd share some interesting finds.

Sirius. The brightest star. The Dog Star. Canis Major.

In the astrology of the Middle Ages, Sirius was a Behenian fixed star, associated with beryl and juniper, and the planet Venus (the Morning Star... a name also synonymous with Lucifer). The Behenian fixed stars are a group of fifteen stars considered useful for magical applications in medieval astrology throughout Europe and the Arab world.

However, Geoffrey mentions that Sirius' significance is not related to the Zodiac...

Back to the books (or just the book in this case). There are (that I can find) only two references to Sirius in the text:

• Hex 1106 - Anubis statue causes weight change while Sirius is in night sky
• Hex 1601 - Proclus sect knows mysteries of Sirius - venerate (but don't worship) statue that is an amalgamation of man and dolphin

Let's break it down and postulate.

Anubis is the canine-headed Egyptian God of the dead, and is known as the protector of graves, shepherd of the dead, and judger of souls. He is associated with Sirius in Egyptian myth (Sirius = Dog Star). In the Book of the Dead, Anubis is pictured as weighing the hearts of the dead against an ostrich feather. If a heart was heavier than the feather, the soul was fed to Ammit (an Egyptian demoness of destruction, part lion/hippo/crocodile --> Chimeric!) and doomed to eternal restlessness (undeath, or sentenced to Hell?); if lighter, the soul was allowed into the afterlife.

Does the Anubis statue in hex 1106 pre-date the ancient "Atlantean" civilization of the Isle?

The weight-increase effect seemed a bit thin to me (pun intended) until I came across a reference to the Dogon:

The Dogon, a real-life isolated primitive tribe in central Africa, have extensive astronomical knowledge of Sirius, which is a central part of their beliefs. They appear to have possessed this knowledge before any accurate astronomical observation had ever been made. They had always believed that a small white star (Po Tolo) orbited Sirius every 50 years (now an established astronomical fact: a white dwarf called Sirius B orbits the primary Sirius A). They call it "the heaviest star" being made from a metal known as "sagala" which is heavier than all the iron on Earth. They claim to have been given this knowledge by a race of half-fish men called the Nommos, who descended from Sirius.

Perhaps this hints at the beliefs held by the sect in hex 1601 who pay respects to a mongrel dolphin-man? Thanks for all the fish, Geoffrey!

Members of this sect are of the Proclus school. Proclus was one of the last classical Greek Neoplatonic philosophers and an ardent worshiper of Athena. He was a champion of the metaphysical, especially as it pertained to the origins of the universe, the Gods, and the soul. It was also said that he spent a year of his life traveling and joining various mysterious cults. Surely there is some significance to this.

[foxroe]

Not exactly sure how I missed this. Downloaded and read it today - good fun, but not as revealing as I thought it would be.

EDIT: Did a mini-review in this thread.

[geoffrey]

Dec 30, 2016 10:55:38 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Thread necromancy!

Speaking of necromancy, what's up with the undead-less isle, geoffrey ?

I've been digging into the IotU again recently and thinking about using it for a campaign setting for some new players. I'm also re-reading B1, B3, X2, and some other modules/adventures and thinking how great they would work on the Isle. But, before I embark upon this seldom traveled path, I still have lingering questions for which I have not the answers...

I know that I can just fill in the blanks so to speak, but I am curious how your campaign turned out and what further mysteries, enigmas, and esoterica you would be willing to divulge.

Exempli gratia:
- The aforementioned absence of undead - I'm not seeing any clues in the text, so is this just creator fiat?
- Sirius - I had originally thought that it had something to do with Sirius being a Behenian fixed star, but then why not the other stars? Plus, you mentioned that it had nothing to do with the Zodiac...
- Origin of the chimeric beasts - It would be easy to say some "Mother of Beasts" mythological figure, or "the Devil did it!", but I'm sure it's something less expected. Escapees from the dungeons of a mad demi-god perhaps?
- Speaking of which... any mega-dungeons on your Isle?

The vital influence of the thirteen sidereal Zodiac mages is a secondary reason for undeath being impossible on the Isle.

Sirius: Completely and utterly influenced by Robert K. G. Temple's The Sirius Mystery. You did some astute detective work with your thoughts on the Dogon, the triple star-system of Sirius, and Proclus.

The chimeric beasts are spawned from an Abhoth-type thing (cf. Clark Ashton Smith's "The Seven Geases") deep under the Isle. This life-generating force is the main thing making undeath impossible on the Isle.

Near the coast in hex 2214 is the Dungeon of the Unknown. It could certainly be expanded into a megadungeon. I myself never made a megadungeon for the Isle, but a megadungeon would certainly fit in.

Hope that helps!

[foxroe]

Awesome, thanks Geoffrey!

I know you're always hesitant to reveal the secrets of the Isle, so this is shiny, shiny gold.

I had always suspected that the distinct lack of undeath on the isle was linked to the chimeric creatures ('though admittedly, I was thinking a more "reincarnation of lost souls" angle).

In my own campaign I'm probably going to include undead, but they'll be rare and "unique". A cleric's turn undead ability will likely then be relegated to 1st level spell status, which will affect one target, which gets a save modified by the difference in the cleric's level and the undead's HD.

I'm also strongly leaning towards a "Jakalla"-style mega-dungeon in the center of the isle where the upper levels are more "modern", and lower levels progressively go back in archaeological time. The primordial caverns in the lowest level will of course be the lair of Echidna.

[foxroe]

geoffrey, in your IotU campaign, how did you treat the clerical turning ability since there were no undead? Did you just drop the ability altogether and maybe dropped the weapon restrictions on clerics, or did you change it to something more in tune with the Isle (i.e. some sort of fear affect over the island's chimeric creations)?

[geoffrey]

Jun 20, 2017 23:25:31 GMT -6 foxroe said:

geoffrey, in your IotU campaign, how did you treat the clerical turning ability since there were no undead? Did you just drop the ability altogether and maybe dropped the weapon restrictions on clerics, or did you change it to something more in tune with the Isle (i.e. some sort of fear affect over the island's chimeric creations)?

I didn't change anything on that score. I figure that the loss of the opportunity to turn undead is more than made up for by not running into the dangers of the undead.

[foxroe]

Jun 21, 2017 14:12:53 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I figure that the loss of the opportunity to turn undead is more than made up for by not running into the dangers of the undead.

Very true! Additionally, clerics have the fastest advancement table in the original rules (I never could understand why), so I shouldn't be so concerned about ignoring the ability.

Just curious, did your players ever complain about not being able to use the ability?

[geoffrey]

Jun 21, 2017 18:17:52 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Jun 21, 2017 14:12:53 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I figure that the loss of the opportunity to turn undead is more than made up for by not running into the dangers of the undead.

Very true! Additionally, clerics have the fastest advancement table in the original rules (I never could understand why), so I shouldn't be so concerned about ignoring the ability.

Just curious, did your players ever complain about not being able to use the ability?

No. I never had a player mention the lack of undead. I doubt they even noticed.

I wonder if any other D&D group adventuring in the Isle of the Unknown ever noticed that there are no undead on the Isle.

[ritt]

The whole zodiac theme completely and utterly flew over my head when I first read the module. I just took it at face value as a slightly weird sandbox.

[foxroe]

It's a very cool sandbox. I know there was some criticism when it was released about it being "just randomly generated", but it's obvious to me that they missed the context and all of the subtle clues that really engage your imagination. I've been furiously typing up ideas (and throwing some out) all week getting ready for a campaign - deciding a starting area and adventure, naming some towns, developing the religions, coming up with ideas about where the chimeric creatures come from*, deciding which D&D tropes to use, etc.

I'm hoping my small group enjoys it as much as I do.

*I'll probably go with Geoffrey's intent of there being an almost mindless (or at least unfathomable) protean creature just pumping them out... although still-active, automated Atlantean Vats of Creation might work too.

[geoffrey]

Jun 21, 2017 21:27:15 GMT -6 ritt said:

The whole zodiac theme completely and utterly flew over my head when I first read the nodule. I just took it at face value as a slightly weird sandbox.

And that's perfectly all right. I intentionally made the themes subtle so as to make the Isle more generally useful. Those who want to can blissfully ignore the zodiac, and/or the Robert Temple, and/or the etc. On the other hand, those who want to use them can dig deep into the setting with astrology, ancient astronauts, etc.