|
Post by cooper on Aug 9, 2014 0:35:27 GMT -6
Anyone try this game? It's best described I think as a tribute to basic d&d with the emphasis on resource management without counting beans and copper coins.
|
|
|
Post by kesher on Aug 9, 2014 10:49:02 GMT -6
I haven't played it myself, but I know a number of people who love it. Excellent game designers, too, FWIW.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 9, 2014 11:15:06 GMT -6
I downloaded the PDF 15$ plus all the free bonus stuff yesterday. I am beyond impressed with the game. They've basically captured the essence of Moldvay D&D and do everything in a town or dungeon you expect to do but without counting every copper coin or enc. value. they went "meta" and came out the other side with a perfect synthesis of what it "feels" like to play D&D.
basically, if you want torches, buying armor, town guards, inns, and figuring out how to haul a tapestry out of a dungeon to matter, but you don't like the idea of tracking every copper or every point of enc. play this game.
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Aug 11, 2014 7:01:53 GMT -6
I saw a copy at my local game store. It looked interesting, but I haven't bought one yet. I've been following the thread on DF and was particulary taken by this: Oh, and the DF thread, if anyone wants to look at it: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=63280
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 11, 2014 13:29:24 GMT -6
It's definitely not a d20 game. The actual rules are vastly different from d20. But it succeeds at being a "narrative moldvay basic" (the expert hasn't come out yet). It uses the same d&d spells, the same items, the same basic classes (halfling burglar, dwarf adventurer, elf ranger (mu/fr) cleric, fighter, wizard. They've since released a thief and paladin. The rules are hard. They are expertly interwoven with each other, but it's narrative. Even searching for secret doors and traps is mind blowingly good. It requires player narration of their actions, yet uses a resolution mechanic. But again, the authors say and it's probably true, it takes 20 sessions to attain system mastery. But the players really explore a dungeon. You literally cannot say, "I search for traps...roll d6". It truly captures the spirit of d&d and I don't think, once system understanding is gained, that it would be difficult at all to use old modules on the fly with the system, because even though the system is very difficult, it's rules are counterintuitively light and it is specifically emulating Moldvay B/X.
I know for a fact that there is a group doing ToEE with Torchbearer and they're 40 sessions into the game. I'm thinking of maybe GMing a Skype or PbP game, something I've never done, but might really enjoy.
|
|
|
Post by Alex Schroeder on Aug 12, 2014 2:10:46 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 12, 2014 9:04:32 GMT -6
Thanks for the play recap. I'd certainly like any more insights into the game if you have them. Your near TPK on a kill conflict (dangerous!) is certainly what could happen in any D&D game at 1st level I think. I haven't ran a game yet, but the conflict system (combat) is one of the things that appeals to me most, so it's interesting to get your negative take on it.
for example in the second conflict where you tried to trick, a failure could have meant condition or twist, not just a "failure and go home" which is much different from D&D where failure = failure. I'm assuming the skeletons took some disposition (hit point losses) which means your group should have gotten minor or even a major concession--like, make it to the next room hungry, exhausted and scared perhaps.
anyway, your link to Luke's (one of the designers) recap of their Moldvay adventure into Search of the Unknown is a great read.
Here is one of Luke's comments in his Moldvay thread (where they played Moldvay strictly by the book):
|
|
|
Post by sulldawga on Aug 12, 2014 10:08:29 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Aug 12, 2014 10:29:07 GMT -6
Keep the chatter going. Based on this thread, I think I'll swing by my local game store later today in order to pick up a copy (if it's still there). Sounds like a fun read, if nothing else.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 12, 2014 10:56:53 GMT -6
it's a great read even if you end up not liking the rules. they are excellent writers and there is lots of good dry humor in the text. it is definitely not a rule book of dry explanations.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 15, 2014 17:53:14 GMT -6
Another great thing Torchbearer does is not just structure the "town phase" after the "adventure phase" of the dungeon, but every 4 adventure phases requires a "winter phase" which in addition to a lot other stuff ages your character 1 year. The towns are also introduced very well, elf towns, dwarf towns etc. Ways for creating laws and what shops are available (because buying equipment is critically important in this game. You have to buy rations etc and woe betide the adventurer who doesn't have any cash from a failed dungeon crawl.)
Also an important part of the game is, "describe to survive" is that you can never say, "I check for traps" or "I search" you have to detail exactly what you are doing at any time--the benefit is that you can have a "good idea" where the DM doesn't advance a turn/call for a check. Also the interactivity between players is great as players can describe how their characters are helping other PCs
|
|
EdOWar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 315
|
Post by EdOWar on Aug 16, 2014 10:52:07 GMT -6
You've piqued my interest, though I think I'll wait for the PDF to go on sale to pick it up.
One concern: do you feel that the increased abstraction, particularly for the "town phase," makes Torchbearer feel more like a board game instead of a traditional RPG? Just seems to me that it could make for a somewhat less immersive game, if I'm thinking of everything in dry, mechanical terms and abstracted 'phases.'
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 16, 2014 15:11:29 GMT -6
There is certainly a game like quality to Torchbearer's phases, but the immersion is very rich in part because of how the players absolutely must describe their actions, but also it's built into the character sheet with goals, beliefs, wises and instincts. All of these effect game play. Goals are short term goals related to the dungeon you're delving ("I will bring the princess out alive", "The only thing that matters is Gold", "I will protect the party cleric") beliefs are what they say they are, "I am the bulwark that stands between my friends and harm" "I'll do whatever it takes to get ahead in this world".
The town phase isn't just static. You can arrive and the place could be on fire, or occupied by soldiers, or you may have a run in with a guild, or harassed by town guard or lots and lots of things. Town phase is definitely also role-played, but generally is "downtime" so not necessarily a place that can wear you down physically (just monetarily!). So things like the city being under military occupation might make prices higher, or if it's on fire all the stores are closed etc. There isn't just one town either, the book leaves it up to the GM and players to flesh out the campaign world, but provides kind of a rubric to help start a campaign, with rules for elf lands, dwarf lands, metropolis, crossroads and village. Each town will have laws and personalities all their own. Characters also have "circles" which are friends, family, mentors, enemies that can be used in town for things as far ranging as finding leads for where the dungeon is, a place to stay, learning a new spell, etc. In both the "camp" and "town" phase, players can attempt to heal, brew potions, try and map, PvP and more.
For a truly open and free fantasy role-play scenario, "Burning Wheel" is the "advanced" game of Torchbearer. It has no phases and is more about intrigue and politics instead of dungeon delving (designed for a political Middle Earth game or Game of Thrones). Torchbearer is like Burning Wheel on rails. The resolution mechanics and character sheets are similar, but BW allows for total free form play. As I mentioned, it is a rules heavy game that requires heavy roleplaying. This at first seemed counterintuitive, after all, in most d&d games you just "role-play" without rules, but in TB in order to level up you literally have to role-play your characters traits hindering them in a test and fail at an important moment, but it's still all about the dungeon crawl. Very snazzy. The dice mechanics push players into role-playing.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 19, 2014 9:11:04 GMT -6
Here's a link to a brief overview of the system (more concise than my ramblings) as well as a link to the free pdf bundle of starter material. Torchbearer Primer
|
|
EdOWar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 315
|
Post by EdOWar on Aug 19, 2014 15:30:23 GMT -6
Here's a link to a brief overview of the system (more concise than my ramblings) as well as a link to the free pdf bundle of starter material. Torchbearer PrimerThank you for posting that link. After reading the overview of the system and downloading the free bundle, I'm both more and less intrigued than before . I really like the abstraction of The Grind, combined with the strict turn sequence. I think traditional D&D doesn't really reflect just how exhausting dungeon exploration really ought to be (even without combat). I also like the abstraction of how lighting works, covering a certain number of people instead of a given radius. I'd like to incorporate these kind of abstract rules into a standard D&D game. Less interesting, to me, were all the Wises, Goals and such, some of the meta-mechanics. And there seem to be a lot of different kinds of checks to make, with a lot of modifiers. Or at least that's my impression looking at the free downloads. Too bad there's not a 'lite' version of the game. I'll probably still pick up Torchbearer when they have a good sale on it.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 19, 2014 18:22:36 GMT -6
goals relate specifically to the adventure you're on and constantly change (I will rob this dungeon blind/I will keep my friend safe from harm/I will return the princess to her father) If you're successful in your goal, you get XP basically. But goals are totally your choice, you write whatever you want.
wises are things you're good at, which helps you help you or other characters. Are you goblin-wise? Well, when the ranger tries to track goblin tracks, or the wizard is attempting to read ancient goblin runes you can give them a +1d on their roll (you can't say, "I use my goblin-wise", you have to describe how you're helping). Wises could be "close quarters combat wise, alchemy ingredient wise, or literally anything-wise as long as it is specific. These can change after a winter season.
traits are your intrinsic personality if you use a trait against yourself (stubborn) you get XP. Torchbearer isn't just about success, it's about failing and learning from mistakes. So you could use "stubborn" to help you when haggling with a merchant, but if you purposefully role-play your stubbornness and then use it against you when it would hinder you (using stubbornness to not accept the terms of your surrender for example), then you get extra XP when you give yourself a penalty to the roll and fail, because it's awesome to see characters hoist themselves on their own petard sometimes. These can also change.
The game is about staying alive in a dungeon, but the XP comes from challenging your character and role-playing matters (especially the hard choices) to character advancement, it's not just fluff. It's XP for clever play not monster slaughtering. There is also still alignment as well Law/unaligned/chaos.
|
|
|
Post by ffilz on Aug 21, 2014 14:18:46 GMT -6
Less interesting, to me, were all the Wises, Goals and such, some of the meta-mechanics. And there seem to be a lot of different kinds of checks to make, with a lot of modifiers. Or at least that's my impression looking at the free downloads. Too bad there's not a 'lite' version of the game. I'll probably still pick up Torchbearer when they have a good sale on it. While there isn't a Torchbearer Lite, there IS a Burning Wheel Lite: burning wheel gold hub and spokes. Frank
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Aug 21, 2014 16:26:52 GMT -6
It's not really burning wheel lite. The "Hub and spokes" is just the character building section of the main book (600+ pages); which are still an order of magnitude more complex than torchbearer. Torchbearer is Holmes basic compared to Burning Wheel.
|
|
|
Post by ffilz on Aug 21, 2014 17:07:56 GMT -6
Actually, Hub & Spokes is the core rules, and no character generation, here is the Table of Contents for what it covers:
the Hub of the Wheel It Revolves on This . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 Elements of Character . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17 the Spokes Testing Your Abilities. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24 Advancing Abilities. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 Beliefs, Instincts and Traits . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 The Artha Wheel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61 The Spokes in Play . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 72
While Torchbearer is a generally simpler system than Burning Wheel Gold, the hub and spokes share a LOT with Torchbearer to the point where they could be used to get at least an idea of the system. Hub and Spokes doesn't cover extended conflict, and there are cool adventuring, camp, and town mechanics that are unique to Torchbearer, but to get a general idea what the system is, H&S at least is a start, and it's free...
Frank
|
|