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Post by rossik on Jun 14, 2014 20:31:15 GMT -6
Dont get me wrong, im not saying anything bad about this author. Im just curious about why Gary recomended him in Appendiz N. I mean, what would be his connection do D&D? Its very clear with Vance, Lieber or Moorcock, but what about Zelazny?
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Post by cadriel on Jun 14, 2014 21:22:38 GMT -6
Because he was a great fantasist. I think his Jack of Shadows is the obvious one to have an impact on D&D, but Appendix N isn't really about "D&D fantasy" as such. (And it's missing some great fantasists; Clark Ashton Smith, C.L. Moore and E.R. Eddison should all be on the list.)
A number of the authors wrote primarily science fiction. Brackett, Brown, Norton, Weinbaum, Williamson - none of them wrote much that we'd call fantasy today. Burroughs and Carter wrote in the "science fantasy" vein that straddles a line between sci-fi and fantasy, as did Merritt. Sterling Lanier's Hiero's Journey is substantially more Gamma World than D&D as such, as is Saberhagen's work, and Sign of the Labrys is science fiction plus magic that was an inspiration for the dungeon concept.
I've been trying to stress for a while on my blog that D&D is not a "vanilla fantasy" work. It has robots and Martian creatures and such. It's much more open, and a lot weirder, than the reputation it has gotten. Fantasy narrowed in the 80s and 90s, and D&D narrowed along with it.
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Post by rossik on Jun 14, 2014 21:33:30 GMT -6
thanks for the reply! yeah, i know. force fields, blob monsters, frankenstein monster, felix the cat bags...not everyting D*Dish is Conan, Mouser or Bilbo thanks for the reply, but would you mind to tell me more about zelazny connection? oh, also, i think Rob Kutz have told in his DF Q&A that he LOVED CAS, but Gary didnt like it that much
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Post by cadriel on Jun 14, 2014 21:45:09 GMT -6
There's a danger of over-analysis in Appendix N, because it was really just a list of books Gary liked. You could pretty well argue that John Norman's Gor novels, which Dave Arneson read and informed the Blackmoor campaign, had a pretty significant impact on the way D&D turned out. Some bits were excised, such as having slavery outright in the setting and the Tarns and so forth that we see in First Fantasy Campaign, but there's the Assassin which is definitely Gorean in origin. The point being, Appendix N is not a bibliography so much as a set of books Gary was suggesting to get the referee's fantasy juices flowing.
Given that caveat, Jack of Shadows is widely thought to have influenced the development of thieves in some way. To what extent it's not clear, since the thief is principally an attempt to add Leiber's Gray Mouser to D&D, but at least the "hide in shadows" part of thieves may be related to Zelazny. Amber's concept of multiple worlds probably didn't hurt the implementation of the same in the D&D cosmology, but that is its own complex nut to crack, with lots of roots in myth and spiritualism.
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Post by talysman on Jun 14, 2014 22:21:53 GMT -6
Also, Zelazny wrote several swords & sorcery stories about Dilvish the d**ned, a heroic warrior from a human noble house (but with a hint of elven blood) who is sent to hell by an evil sorcery, then returns centuries later to exact his revenge, with the aide of a talking demonic horse made of steel. There's lots of elements in the stories that may have influenced D&D, including an infernal language that might serve as a model for Chaotic, a shadow world parallel to the real world, magic circles of protection, magic mirrors that can act as portals, vampires, ancient gods, impenetrable suits of magic armor, and more.
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Post by scottenkainen on Jun 14, 2014 22:58:06 GMT -6
I had the same problem with Fred Saberhagen. As I wrote back in 2001, "I cannot tell what books he would have written before 1978 that could have inspired D&D. He had not yet written the Book of Swords books, and the Beserker series is too 'hard sci-fi' for D&D." Perhaps the answer is as simple as Cadriel's, or maybe someone here knows of some other early Saberhagen books I missed...?
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Azafuse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by Azafuse on Jun 15, 2014 1:22:09 GMT -6
Saberhagen wrote "Empire of the East" which was an example of the "magic replaces technology" theme.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 15, 2014 5:07:55 GMT -6
The point being, Appendix N is not a bibliography so much as a set of books Gary was suggesting to get the referee's fantasy juices flowing. I think that this is the best answer. I don't think that you can pick a book at random from Appendix N, read it, then point to a specific thing in D&D and say "look! There it is!" Appendix N is mostly supposed to be a general inspiration of the spirit of the game. Zelazny is one of my most/least favorite authors. Some of his stuff is very philosophical and (to me) kind of boring, but other of his work is more character driven and action oriented and that's the stuff I like the best. The entire Amber concept is great and gives a different spin on Law versus Chaos, Dilvish is a fantastic character who (as Talysman noted) has some very D&D-like adventures and magical items, Shadowjack is pretty neat as a thief with magical powers, Changeling features magic versus technology, and so on. Of all the characters and settings I just mentioned, probably Dilivish is the most D&D-like and in fact Z wrote a lot of those stories for Ken St.Andre's T&T magazine. there's the Assassin which is definitely Gorean in origin. Perhaps, but recall that Edgar Rice Burroughs had assassins on Barsoom decades before the Gor books.
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Post by cadriel on Jun 15, 2014 7:02:34 GMT -6
I think that this is the best answer. I don't think that you can pick a book at random from Appendix N, read it, then point to a specific thing in D&D and say "look! There it is!" Appendix N is mostly supposed to be a general inspiration of the spirit of the game. Although if you happened to pick Three Hearts and Three Lions or Lord of the Rings, you'd be finding things at every turn. ;-) I think people who get into "Appendix N" focus like I did at first on Howard, Leiber, Moorcock, Vance and Lovecraft, and a lot of the flavor that's not sword & sorcery / pulp fantasy gets lost. Yeah, but when it came up on my blog it was pointed out that assassin's guilds definitely originated in the Gor works, and probably the specifics of how Blackmoor assassins work.
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Post by rossik on Jun 15, 2014 9:30:50 GMT -6
The point being, Appendix N is not a bibliography so much as a set of books Gary was suggesting to get the referee's fantasy juices flowing. I think that this is the best answer. I don't think that you can pick a book at random from Appendix N, read it, then point to a specific thing in D&D and say "look! There it is!" Appendix N is mostly supposed to be a general inspiration of the spirit of the game. Zelazny is one of my most/least favorite authors. Some of his stuff is very philosophical and (to me) kind of boring, but other of his work is more character driven and action oriented and that's the stuff I like the best. The entire Amber concept is great and gives a different spin on Law versus Chaos, Dilvish is a fantastic character who (as Talysman noted) has some very D&D-like adventures and magical items, Shadowjack is pretty neat as a thief with magical powers, Changeling features magic versus technology, and so on. Of all the characters and settings I just mentioned, probably Dilivish is the most D&D-like and in fact Z wrote a lot of those stories for Ken St.Andre's T&T magazine. there's the Assassin which is definitely Gorean in origin. Perhaps, but recall that Edgar Rice Burroughs had assassins on Barsoom decades before the Gor books. thanks guys! yes, one should not do that, picking books and trying to find meaning in D&D, but since we have so many cases like that (like in lieber, vance and so on), that i find it very nice to try it. some autors may have direct connection to D&D, and some not. since i love D&D history, i try to find more about this aspect.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 15, 2014 15:04:55 GMT -6
Yeah, but when it came up on my blog it was pointed out that assassin's guilds definitely originated in the Gor works, and probably the specifics of how Blackmoor assassins work. I didn't read Barsoom novels, nor Gor books; so I always assumed that Assassin's Guilds where just built in parallel of Thieves Guilds (borrowed to Leiber) with a pintch of the historical sct of Assassins (with the "Grandfather of assassins" being a transposition of the "Old man of the mountain")
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 15:51:00 GMT -6
There's a danger of over-analysis in Appendix N, because it was really just a list of books Gary liked. This. Sweet Crom's hairy nutsack (or, if you prefer, hairy Crom's sweet nutsack), this.
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Post by rossik on Jun 15, 2014 16:33:08 GMT -6
There's a danger of over-analysis in Appendix N, because it was really just a list of books Gary liked. This. Sweet Crom's hairy nutsack (or, if you prefer, hairy Crom's sweet nutsack), this. Sure! As every over analysis of anything But since this is a place of study and learned people, i think i'm on the right place to ask, as this is a subject that i love. Thanks all for the info! Edit:as many people love to read stories, and others love to tell tales of past. some like to imagine the possibilities of the game, and some like to investigate it history. to each, his own
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 22:45:20 GMT -6
Right place to ask, sure, but we have to be careful. As my statistics prof said, "If you crunch the numbers long enough, anything will correlate." We need to be wary against creating meaning where none exits.
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Post by rossik on Jun 16, 2014 14:08:41 GMT -6
Right place to ask, sure, but we have to be careful. As my statistics prof said, "If you crunch the numbers long enough, anything will correlate." We need to be wary against creating meaning where none exits. great advice, Gronan, thanks!
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