Revised Version of Swords & Wizardry

[mythmere]

The link: mythmere.keepandshare.com (make sure you click on the 6/5/08 file)

This new version is, I think, a full-scale retro-clone of the White Box (including some additions from the supplements and a small number of legally-oriented changes).

Please take a look.

[coffee]

Okay, I just now downloaded it and am lightly skimming (I'm at work...)

The one thing I notice, and this was probably this way on the first version, is that you're using Men & Magic's number of spells per day for Clerics and Magic-Users. I didn't see anybody else mention this, so I thought I'd say something. I like it. I always thought the later versions were pretty stingy with spells, so I'm glad to see this.

Keep up the good work!

Oh, and like so many others, I love the name!

[Finarvyn]

I like it better than the earlier version. I haven't gotten through the whole thing yet, but it is a lot more White Box based, which is a plus in my book! :-)

[Zulgyan]

I like the general XP bonus for high wisdom!

Why do I always see new house rules I like to incorporate to my game?

[Zulgyan]

I would personally have fighter's roll d8 for HD and d6 for clerics

[philotomy]

Jun 5, 2008 17:22:27 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

I like the general XP bonus for high wisdom!

Yeah, that's a nice addition, given the lack of other bonuses for Wis in the TLB.

[philotomy]

Jun 5, 2008 17:26:30 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

I would personally have fighter's roll d8 for HD and d6 for clerics

That would definitely be more "white box" and "basic/expert." In fact, given the very high Con bonuses available to Fighters, d10 for hit dice would allow for a lot of hit points for Fighters. I take it monsters are assumed to use the Greyhawk hit dice (i.e. d8 based, rather than d6) and attacks (e.g. ghouls get claw/claw/bite rather than a single attack)?

[TheMyth]

There's something I don't like about how you handled Elves...the little buggers...

I think it might be about forcing them to pick Fighter or Magic-User and act as the class all day. Maybe the explanation needs refining?

For instance, can an Elf-as-Fighter cast spells?

An Elf-as-Magic-User can use magical armor...so why not swords and bows?

Why not just base their chart off the Magic-User, use d6 hit dice, add the ability to use all weapons, the ability to use magical armor, their racial abilities, and bump up the xp cost per level?

[philotomy]

Jun 5, 2008 18:49:30 GMT -6 TheMyth said:

There's something I don't like about how you handled Elves...
I think it might be about forcing them to pick Fighter or Magic-User and act as the class all day. Maybe the explanation needs refining?

I like the treatment of Elves; it's very "white box" and it preserves some of the ambiguity of the original rules.

FWIW, though, here's how I handle elves:

The OD&D rules on the Elf leave a great deal of room for interpretation, and individual referees handle elves in different ways. In my game, Elves start as both Fighting Man and Magic User (i.e. Veteran and Medium). For starting hit points, the Elf rolls 1d6+1 (i.e. Veteran hit dice) and 1d6 (Medium hit dice), taking the higher of the two rolls. He tracks experience for each class separately. At the beginning of each adventure session (loosely defined as the from the start of an adventure until XP is awarded in a safe place), the Elf's player declares whether he is adventuring as a Fighter or as a Magic User. During that session, the Elf's earned XP goes to the declared class, and he fights and saves as the declared class. Regardless of declared class, the Elf can use any weapon, and may cast spells if he is not wearing armor, or if he is wearing magical armor. The Elf maintains a single hit point total. When the Elf advances a level, he rolls the total hit dice for his new level (e.g. if he advanced to Hero, he rolls 4d6), and takes the greater of his roll or his current hit point total). Elves are, of course, limited to 4th level Fighting Man (Hero) and 8th level Magic User (Warlock). The Elf abilities from Chainmail are translated as +1 to hit against kobolds, goblins, and hobgoblins, and orcs (the greater bonuses in Chainmail are interpreted as coming from magical weapons and from mass-combat tactics against certain foes). Elves possess infravision and can see in the dark (however, this special vision may not work in supernatural or mythic underworld settings). Note that while Chainmail mentions elvish invisibility, this is not translated as an individual ability, but as the use of magical elven cloaks or invisibility spells.

Also, I'm thinking of adding a house-rule for XP: if one of the Elf's classes is more than twice the level of the other class, XP awards are halved.

[mythmere]

Jun 5, 2008 18:49:30 GMT -6 TheMyth said:

There's something I don't like about how you handled Elves...the little buggers...

I think it might be about forcing them to pick Fighter or Magic-User and act as the class all day. Maybe the explanation needs refining?

For instance, can an Elf-as-Fighter cast spells?

An Elf-as-Magic-User can use magical armor...so why not swords and bows?

Why not just base their chart off the Magic-User, use d6 hit dice, add the ability to use all weapons, the ability to use magical armor, their racial abilities, and bump up the xp cost per level?

I wanted to stick with the original rules; technically, the elf can choose one or the other class per adventuring session, but it's definitely a switch-off of the two classes in the original books.

[James Maliszewski]

Jun 5, 2008 19:11:09 GMT -6 philotomy said:

Also, I'm thinking of adding a house-rule for XP: if one of the Elf's classes is more than twice the level of the other class, XP awards are halved.

Oh no, you're reinventing 3e ...

[akiyama]

Very nice, I like all the changes you made. I really, really appreciate you doing this, Mythmere! There area lot of good retro-clones out there already, I know, but this is slightly closer to what I want than any of the others.

I may have to copy and paste it into Word this evening, so I can tinker around with the rules. ;D

What is the typeface you used? It is really attractive.

[Deleted]

Nice going, Mythmere. I'm reading your file and it's sweet!

You mentioned legal changes, so how 'bout this one: in Boot Hill experience is based on number of "gunfights" instead of guys killed. Why not re-do XP in terms of "encounters" or "adventures" instead of gold and individual baddies killed? It would make the rules easier and would be a big legal change for ya. :-)

[mythmere]

Jun 6, 2008 11:53:37 GMT -6 @keltset said:

Nice going, Mythmere. I'm reading your file and it's sweet!

You mentioned legal changes, so how 'bout this one: in Boot Hill experience is based on number of "gunfights" instead of guys killed. Why not re-do XP in terms of "encounters" or "adventures" instead of gold and individual baddies killed? It would make the rules easier and would be a big legal change for ya. :-)

I've split up the "prime requisite" system, which could give you up to a 10% bonus, into 3 potential 5% bonuses: your prime attribute, your wisdom, and your charisma. I think that's enough of a divergence to eliminate any concerns about copyright or duplicating the 3e experience progression system (which isn't open game content). No version of D&D ever pegged particular stats other than a prime requisite as a source of additional experience no matter what your class might be. It's a fundamental structural change, even though at first glance most people would probably object only to the potential for 5% more xp rather than the way you get it. Well, actually, players might not object...

[Finarvyn]

Jun 6, 2008 12:19:59 GMT -6 mythmere said:

No version of D&D ever pegged particular stats other than a prime requisite as a source of additional experience no matter what your class might be.

I don't object to it ... it's a neat idea. What I wonder about is your statement above, simply because I think it's been a topic of conversation on one of these boards somewhere. (Here or DF or K&K, probably. I forget which one.)

Simply put, I think there were two ways to interpret the "prime requisite" part and I'm not certain that a consensus was ever reached in the discussion.
1. Players could actually trade stats to their PR stat based on a few guildelines in Men & Magic.
2. Players could juggle their stats according to those guidelines in order to max-out their PR, but their actual stats would stay unchanged.

In either case, it looks like Men & Magic offers a method where other stats could contribute to their prime requisite, and thus to their XP bonus.

Unless I'm not understaning your statement correctly?

[mythmere]

Jun 6, 2008 12:35:18 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Jun 6, 2008 12:19:59 GMT -6 mythmere said:

No version of D&D ever pegged particular stats other than a prime requisite as a source of additional experience no matter what your class might be.

I don't object to it ... it's a neat idea. What I wonder about is your statement above, simply because I think it's been a topic of conversation on one of these boards somewhere. (Here or DF or K&K, probably. I forget which one.)

Simply put, I think there were two ways to interpret the "prime requisite" part and I'm not certain that a consensus was ever reached in the discussion.
1. Players could actually trade stats to their PR stat based on a few guildelines in Men & Magic.
2. Players could juggle their stats according to those guidelines in order to max-out their PR, but their actual stats would stay unchanged.

In either case, it looks like Men & Magic offers a method where other stats could contribute to their prime requisite, and thus to their XP bonus.

Unless I'm not understaning your statement correctly?

What I meant about it never having been done (which is the key legal part), is that you've never looked to stats that aren't your PR. What you're talking about is increasing the PR to capture bonuses - here, after the stats are all juggled, you're looking to two other stats beside your prime requisite. Keep in mind that with the legal changes, they may be nice house rules but they're not intended to be used (or even seen) by anyone who actually uses 0e.

[Zulgyan]

I wanted to copy and paste the spell descriptions on a word document so as to work a bit on them, but I copied the stuff weird symbols, random letters and varied numbers showed out.

Was this intentional?

Do you have a version of the PDF you are willing to share in which we can use the text as a base for our own game documents?

Thank you!

Z.

[jrmapes]

This is due to the Acrobat clone that is currently being used. When the final version is ready it will be in PDF as well as in a Word style document that will be completely cut and paste-able.

In the mean time I think Matt is trying to find a program that will allow a PDF to do what you want to do but he can only juggle so many balls at once. I'll talk to him and see what can be done about getting an accessible PDF made available.

Jerry

[busman]

Jerry are you guys using Foxit? It's another adobe clone, but pretty good one.

[Zulgyan]

Jun 8, 2008 5:57:17 GMT -6 jrmapes said:

This is due to the Acrobat clone that is currently being used. When the final version is ready it will be in PDF as well as in a Word style document that will be completely cut and paste-able.

In the mean time I think Matt is trying to find a program that will allow a PDF to do what you want to do but he can only juggle so many balls at once. I'll talk to him and see what can be done about getting an accessible PDF made available.

Jerry

Thanks a lot.

[akiyama]

Is it actually known to be illegal to reproduce the OD&D XP level requirements and rules for gaining XP in an OGL document, or is this just a grey area where no-one knows what the legal position is?

My understanding is that original text is intellectual property covered by copyright law, and original names too (e.g. "beholder"), but that concepts and game rules are not covered by copyright law. But if this is so, then it should be legal to include non-OGL rules from TSR games in an OGL document, no? Or am I wrong?

[dwayanu]

The OGL allows more than the D20 System License (hence, e.g., Mutants & Masterminds). Broader laws, though, apply.

I don't think a single term can be copyrighted per se, but there's a trademark on the D&D "beholder" monster. As the term has common and long-established usage in ordinary English, even its use as a trademark must take context into account. For all I know, it may already be a trademark for something else as well (an optical device, perhaps). The monster's likeness and description are original and distinctive, though.

With XP tables, I don't see how a sequence of numbers could be "banned" if it came up in a sufficiently different context. Restatement as a formula (rather than a table) would seem to me to be beyond reproach, because that would be stating the "game algorithm" (which cannot be patented) in the most generic form possible.

Duplicating the tables in what is clearly meant to be a copy of D&D would be risky, I gather, because of the cumulative effect of similarities in context. A case that comes to mind is that of someone who wrote a novel clearly derived from Gone With the Wind (IIRC, the title was The Wind Be Gone) and could not get a pass in court even with the claim of parody.

[robertsconley]

Jun 10, 2008 7:53:00 GMT -6 akiyama said:

Is it actually known to be illegal to reproduce the OD&D XP level requirements and rules for gaining XP in an OGL document, or is this just a grey area where no-one knows what the legal position is?

You can't use the d20 trademark and have rules for advancing a character.

If you want to include rules for advancing a character then you need to supply your own chart. There is no chart for this in the d20 SRD. Copyright means you can't copy text verbatim unless it is fair use and this is definitely not fair use (parody, criticism, illustration, etc). Unlike text, charts with columns of numbers, like the XP charts, can't be written any other way. So you are forced to make new xp charts.

Remember if what you do is copy a piece of text, whether it is in chart form or not, then copyright will apply. If you use proper nouns and terms of a game then copyright applies. If you use the characters (like Conan, Aragon, Hobbits) then copyright applies.

Ideas are not the realm of copyright. The Tolkein Estate can't say much about Halfing being a short pastoral people with furry feet. TSR couldn't sue Tunnels & Trolls for having hit points.

The d20 SRD allows use to use text, and more importantly the proper nouns and terms found in the world's most popular RPG. As these terms being not specific to 3rd edition of D&D (Armor Class, Hit Points, etc) this allows the retro-clones to be made.

The problems comes when people aren't careful and don't take care in restating the original text. It isn't enough to just reorder sentences. You have to be different enough so you are not confusing people that you are the original. Hence why the OSRIC people involved lawyers at their own expense.

Since OSRIC has done most of the work already and a lot closer to OD&D than the d20 SRD we can use that to craft a OGL document that OD&D people can use to make their retro-clone material safely.

For most it will be just used as list of terms and stats that can be used safely in a module or setting. For those making class books or more rules oriented items then the text become more important.

[busman]

dwayanu has it right if there were a formula published for XP advancement that were the same as the OD&D rules. But the chart in the same format would be copyrighted. Done in a different format, a chart should be fine as long as it didn't impinge "artistically".

[Zulgyan]

This will sound odd, but can you make the table this way?

Level 2 - two thousand
Level 3 - four thousand
Level 4 - eight thousand

and so on?

[dwayanu]

Unlike text, charts with columns of numbers, like the XP charts, can't be written any other way. So you are forced to make new xp charts.

Remember if what you do is copy a piece of text, whether it is in chart form or not, then copyright will apply.

It may be unnecessary, but I want to clarify that copyright is not a means to "hijack" language so as to prevent the legitimate exchange of ideas. If you happen (say) to get a set of engineering or scientific data that coincidentally duplicates tables in some game, that's no cause to suppress your presentation! That's quite a different matter from text involved in making a "clone" of the game itself.

[Zulgyan]

Anyway, it's not that important to have the charts identical.

You can have them at half value and have critters give 50XP per hit dice and 2 gp = 1 XP.

[robertsconley]

dwayanu said:

It may be unnecessary, but I want to clarify that copyright is not a means to "hijack" language so as to prevent the legitimate exchange of ideas. If you happen (say) to get a set of engineering or scientific data that coincidentally duplicates tables in some game, that's no cause to suppress your presentation! That's quite a different matter from text involved in making a "clone" of the game itself.

My understanding is that you are right.

Game Tables are not the same as a periodic table. From what I understand it is a legitimate gray area. But unfortunately one that is fought in court. It is far safer to make up your own xp table and add 100 or 1000 to all the values.

The discussion around OSRIC states this what the lawyer say is the way to go.

Jun 10, 2008 12:27:37 GMT -6 zulgyan" said:

Anyway, it's not that important to have the charts identical.

You can have them at half value and have critters give 50XP per hit dice and 2 gp = 1 XP.

That approach would work great in my book.

[mythmere]

RobertSconley and Dwayanu have both done an excellent job of stating the way copyright law functions. The rules and systems of a game are not copyrightable. The formats of tables are copyrightable. Specific text is absolutely copyrighted. The ordering of information is copyrightable. The numbers in a table are a greyish area, but if there's no algorithm in the original then the copied version could possibly lose the protection of "rules and systems in a game" because, yes, it's the rules and system of a game but on the other hand pirates an artistic expression (no algorithm). That is indeed a grey area, and I've avoided it by using my own artistic and completely original version of xp numbers. The rate of xp progression in the game is designed to be similar, and the mathematical progression is necessarily also similar. Plus, there's an entirely new factor - the prime attribute system uses three attribute scores, and can be responsible for up to a 15% variation from any of the numbers in the chart itself.

Using a somewhat different system for experience doesn't detract from compatibility, which is a nice thing. If you're using 0e books to play an S&W module, you're just using the 0e experience tables. If you're playing S&W with an 0e module, you're just using the S&W xp progressions. You never see the fact that the TABLES differ from game to game. Except for the guy at the table who's using S&W rules while everyone else is using 0e rules. Even then, I think there would be little problem - he'll give back later as the others catch up.

I should mention, if it's not obvious, that I am actually a lawyer myself, although retired.