Post by aldarron on Dec 15, 2009 11:09:04 GMT -6
John Snider was a regular member of Dave Arnesons Napoleonic group and played in the first few years of Blackmoor before going on to a military career. Mr. Snider has not been involved with gaming since joining the military, so his memories are not colored by subsequent developments in the game – including the publication of OD&D and the publication of Adventures in Fantasy, which was co-authored by Johns’ brother Richard and Dave Arneson.
I contacted Mr. Snider by email, and he was kind enough to answer some questions. The following text is from two separate emails, unaltered, except being combined together and the name of the speaker added as a heading.
Dan:
There has been a lot of speculation about the game mechanics Mr. Arneson was using during the first year or two of Blackmoor. Some have suggested Armor Class was 1-8, not 2-9.
Mr. Snider:
Boy ... that was a long time ago and memory is a fungible item these days. I can tell you what I 'think' I remember 35+ years later.
Armor .. I thought it was 1-8, my Boozero character started at 1 if I remember correctly, but then he was shall we say in his cups a tad much so Dave could have adjusted the system to account for this.
Dan:
Boozero was the name of your fighter? Heh, that’s great.
Mr. Snider
Believe was my 2nd fighter ... other one before was to staid for me, so went for this one.
Dan:
I want to make sure I’m not reading too much into your answers. So, from what you wrote about Armor Class, I take it that you remember Armor Class 1 being the worst and Armor class 8 being the strongest?
Mr. Snider
That is how I recall ... but again can not be positeive on this after 30+ years.
Dan:
There have been various ideas about how a hit was determined. Instead of using the familiar combat matrix in found in D&D, some have suggested the player had to roll 2d6-2 and score below the AC in order to get a hit; others that Arneson used percentile dice system to determine hits on a matrix. Further, the percentile system might have been a level versus level matrix table instead of the familiar level vs. Armor Class table.
Mr. Snider:
Dice .. I remember 'today' rolling a 2d6 and having to get below a set number. Now Dave had a paper that he used to get the number needed that may have been the matrix folks are referring too. He was the judge so we didn't always see the guts of the system when this adventure started. Later we went to the percentage dice ... so I guess it depends on what point in time you joined and/or left. I went into the military in the early 70s so I played less and less as deployment approached.
Dan:
If the “to hit” matrix was level vs level then the Armor Class may have functioned as a saving throw – perhaps the 2d6 system mentioned above.
Mr. Snider
Saving ... I remember that this was a mitigator on how bad the hit hurt or how much damage you inflicted. Yes, armor and (if rem right) agility (or whatever we called it back there) were both mitigators, as was level. Boy I wish I had my papers from back then .. then I'd be able to help you a heck of a lot more. I'll look in the archives down below but am sure don't have them anymore.
Dan:
So, if I’m reading it right, you’re saying the mitigating factors came after a hit was already determined, in other words you think you remember 2d6 being rolled to determine if a hit was successful; so Dave first checked what you rolled against something he had written down to determine if a hit was made, before Armor Class etc. came in to play? Then, Armor Class, Agility, and level were mitigators on damage received and damage done after a hit had already been determined. Correct?
Mr. Snider:
Again what I recall at first, although it might have changed as the game matured, I believe Agility was used by Dave before the roll. AC was (if recall) applied after to mitigate the damage ... this also might have changed during the 1st year or so of game maturation. Level, was used by, I can't recall how at this point .. sorry.
Dan:
Was the level mitigator perhaps a separate kind of progression like getting more dice to attack with, say 4d6?
Mr. Snider
I can't recall how level played in although I know it did, just can't recall after all that time.
Dan:
One of the things people have discussed back and forth is chronology. Dave Arneson said he invented Blackmoor over the Christmas holiday, but it’s not clear which year. Do you remember if it was December of 1970 or December of 1971? Some folks have said it was the last week or two in 1970 but Chainmail wasn’t published till the summer of ’71, and since Mr. Arneson said he started off using Chainmail, it would seem to have to have been the last week or two of 1971.
Mr. Snider:
I thought that Dave had a draft copy of chainmail (or something like it) prior to publication, at least what he had behind the judge's invisibility spell was a raft of paper and not a book .. that came later. I thought we started in 70 not 71. Now again, formal playing of the Blackmoor campaign might have really started later, then just shall we say experimentation and feeling out the play mechanics.
Sorry on the faulty memory but 23 years in the Army after this concentrated my focus on other things.
Dan
There will be a lot of folks on the Forum who would be very interested in what you’ve told me. Is it okay to post your answers? I won’t unless you say I can.
Mr. Snider
Is OK to post .... as long as stress the 30+ year memory lapse
I contacted Mr. Snider by email, and he was kind enough to answer some questions. The following text is from two separate emails, unaltered, except being combined together and the name of the speaker added as a heading.
Dan:
There has been a lot of speculation about the game mechanics Mr. Arneson was using during the first year or two of Blackmoor. Some have suggested Armor Class was 1-8, not 2-9.
Mr. Snider:
Boy ... that was a long time ago and memory is a fungible item these days. I can tell you what I 'think' I remember 35+ years later.
Armor .. I thought it was 1-8, my Boozero character started at 1 if I remember correctly, but then he was shall we say in his cups a tad much so Dave could have adjusted the system to account for this.
Dan:
Boozero was the name of your fighter? Heh, that’s great.
Mr. Snider
Believe was my 2nd fighter ... other one before was to staid for me, so went for this one.
Dan:
I want to make sure I’m not reading too much into your answers. So, from what you wrote about Armor Class, I take it that you remember Armor Class 1 being the worst and Armor class 8 being the strongest?
Mr. Snider
That is how I recall ... but again can not be positeive on this after 30+ years.
Dan:
There have been various ideas about how a hit was determined. Instead of using the familiar combat matrix in found in D&D, some have suggested the player had to roll 2d6-2 and score below the AC in order to get a hit; others that Arneson used percentile dice system to determine hits on a matrix. Further, the percentile system might have been a level versus level matrix table instead of the familiar level vs. Armor Class table.
Mr. Snider:
Dice .. I remember 'today' rolling a 2d6 and having to get below a set number. Now Dave had a paper that he used to get the number needed that may have been the matrix folks are referring too. He was the judge so we didn't always see the guts of the system when this adventure started. Later we went to the percentage dice ... so I guess it depends on what point in time you joined and/or left. I went into the military in the early 70s so I played less and less as deployment approached.
Dan:
If the “to hit” matrix was level vs level then the Armor Class may have functioned as a saving throw – perhaps the 2d6 system mentioned above.
Mr. Snider
Saving ... I remember that this was a mitigator on how bad the hit hurt or how much damage you inflicted. Yes, armor and (if rem right) agility (or whatever we called it back there) were both mitigators, as was level. Boy I wish I had my papers from back then .. then I'd be able to help you a heck of a lot more. I'll look in the archives down below but am sure don't have them anymore.
Dan:
So, if I’m reading it right, you’re saying the mitigating factors came after a hit was already determined, in other words you think you remember 2d6 being rolled to determine if a hit was successful; so Dave first checked what you rolled against something he had written down to determine if a hit was made, before Armor Class etc. came in to play? Then, Armor Class, Agility, and level were mitigators on damage received and damage done after a hit had already been determined. Correct?
Mr. Snider:
Again what I recall at first, although it might have changed as the game matured, I believe Agility was used by Dave before the roll. AC was (if recall) applied after to mitigate the damage ... this also might have changed during the 1st year or so of game maturation. Level, was used by, I can't recall how at this point .. sorry.
Dan:
Was the level mitigator perhaps a separate kind of progression like getting more dice to attack with, say 4d6?
Mr. Snider
I can't recall how level played in although I know it did, just can't recall after all that time.
Dan:
One of the things people have discussed back and forth is chronology. Dave Arneson said he invented Blackmoor over the Christmas holiday, but it’s not clear which year. Do you remember if it was December of 1970 or December of 1971? Some folks have said it was the last week or two in 1970 but Chainmail wasn’t published till the summer of ’71, and since Mr. Arneson said he started off using Chainmail, it would seem to have to have been the last week or two of 1971.
Mr. Snider:
I thought that Dave had a draft copy of chainmail (or something like it) prior to publication, at least what he had behind the judge's invisibility spell was a raft of paper and not a book .. that came later. I thought we started in 70 not 71. Now again, formal playing of the Blackmoor campaign might have really started later, then just shall we say experimentation and feeling out the play mechanics.
Sorry on the faulty memory but 23 years in the Army after this concentrated my focus on other things.
Dan
There will be a lot of folks on the Forum who would be very interested in what you’ve told me. Is it okay to post your answers? I won’t unless you say I can.
Mr. Snider
Is OK to post .... as long as stress the 30+ year memory lapse