bea
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Post by bea on Apr 23, 2014 7:19:11 GMT -6
This sprung from a discussion elsewhere about how it's sometimes good to roll low, and sometimes good to roll high, and whether or not there is enough gain in remedying this to actually do it.
Some reaction tables are good examples of when it's good to roll low, but the most obvious situation is the ability check.
When do you use ability checks and when do you use ability modifiers in your games?
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 23, 2014 19:08:25 GMT -6
I think it comes down to any situation not specifically covered in the rulebook. If the rulebook says there is a certain chance of doing something I try to follow it, but otherwise I like the stat check. "Want to climb a tree while being chased by wolves? Roll a dex check!"
Usually the checks are d20+modifier compared to a target number. I use 10 for easy, 15 for medium, 20 for hard. I've also done some stat checks more like C&C's "SIEGE engine" where they also add in level (half level?) into the dice roll and that would adjust target numbers a little.
I prefer stat checks to skill lists because (1) they are easy to use, and (2) my players interpret skill lists as "can't do" lists instead of "can do." If they don't have a climb skill they won't try to climb anything, but when I take away the skill lists they just try stuff and I tell them what to roll. Seems to free up their role play style a lot.
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bea
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Post by bea on Apr 24, 2014 3:28:11 GMT -6
So you really use the ability modifiers more than the abilities themselves?
I've used the "roll d20 below or equal to ability" method more myself, but that doesn't match up well with how other things are resolved. Opening doors or negotiating with hirelings use d6+mod or roll on table + mod, respectively, for example.
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Post by makofan on Apr 24, 2014 8:40:17 GMT -6
Since my characters use 3d6 straight, they have a normal bell curve. Thus I use 3d6, roll below as my check method. I generally only check when it would be a) fun or b) dramatic
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Post by cadriel on Apr 24, 2014 12:12:38 GMT -6
I first learned from the next-to-last beginner's box, and so I've always used roll-under your ability score on 1d20. Since I like to have a character list and attack / saving throw matrices in front of me, I almost never tell players what they are rolling for; usually I just ask, "Can you roll a d20 for me?" (or sometimes a d6) and note the result. Then I'll probably roll another die or two, and then tell the players what has happened. It works because I know what they rolled for, even if they don't. There's no confusion because I don't say, "Roll under your Wisdom," or "Roll over such-and-such," I just ask for a d20 roll.
This method works well with the philosophy of, "tell me what you're doing and I'll tell you what to roll." It lets the referee figure out exactly what they should be calling for instead of bogging the game down in a morass of modifiers and rules and exceptions. Some trust is required but I find it's rewarded.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 24, 2014 13:31:36 GMT -6
I've used the "roll d20 below or equal to ability" method more myself, but that doesn't match up well with how other things are resolved. Opening doors or negotiating with hirelings use d6+mod or roll on table + mod, respectively, for example. That's actually the way I did it for years. Then I had a player complain that sometimes rolling high is good and sometimes rolling low is good, so I looked at ways to tweak things to that high was always better. When I used the "roll under your ability" I found that folks hardly ever failed because stats tended to be decent. (I often use roll 4d6, keep 3.) Not a bad thing, since it makes characters more heroic.
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Post by Stormcrow on Apr 24, 2014 14:50:17 GMT -6
I had a player complain that sometimes rolling high is good and sometimes rolling low is good Gah! I hate this! It's just probability! It doesn't matter whether it's high or low all the time! For players like that I'm tempted to start making every roll completely different. "You can open that door on 3 or 5 on 1d6." "You'll get this door open on 2, 6, 7, or 11 on 1d12." Or I might want to make players use a custom random-number generating program on a computer, which has been preprogrammed with the probabilities I want, but it's a black box and all the player sees is SUCCEED or FAIL. Grumblegrumble. Best solution is to do all the dice-rolling yourself.
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Post by talysman on Apr 24, 2014 15:14:51 GMT -6
I've pretty much dropped ability checks, and rarely use ability modifiers. What I am starting to do more and more is use abilities to decide when to roll or when success/failure would be automatic. "Only characters with high Dex can cross the ledge safely, others must roll." That kind of thing.
I use a flat "5+ on 1d6 means things change" roll. If it's some kind of contest or struggle between characters, I might compare abilities and use a modifier if one character has an advantage.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Apr 24, 2014 20:08:01 GMT -6
I've pretty much dropped ability checks, and rarely use ability modifiers. What I am starting to do more and more is use abilities to decide when to roll or when success/failure would be automatic. "Only characters with high Dex can cross the ledge safely, others must roll." That kind of thing. I use a flat "5+ on 1d6 means things change" roll. If it's some kind of contest or struggle between characters, I might compare abilities and use a modifier if one character has an advantage. I do nearly the same thing
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 24, 2014 23:31:36 GMT -6
I had a player complain that sometimes rolling high is good and sometimes rolling low is good Gah! I hate this! It's just probability! It doesn't matter whether it's high or low all the time! Yes, in the end it's all just probability, but there is also a great utility in convention.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 25, 2014 8:18:53 GMT -6
I like to combine rolling high here with rolling low there, d20 for this, 1d6 for that, and then 2d10 for another thing. More variety, more fun! Unified mechanics make the game repetitive, which is bad in my eyes.
Honestly, my most common ability checks are for jumping and climbing, when it's hard and failing could hurt the PC. I also make Dex checks to avoid/evade certain traps (not all of them, some force a saving throw, other traps "roll to hit" a character, etc.)
Strenght checks are traditionally for opening doors, bend bars, lift gates, break stuff, escape monster grapples.
I sometimes use Inteligence checks to give some clues to the players when they are stuck with a puzzle, or to provide some lore about stuff the character could know. I also use Intelligence checks to allow a PC figure out a complex mechanism or usage of a high tech item. My favourite way of doing it is by giving clues and not the complete answer.
Charisma is also used for "convincing the guards", getting discounts, and other negotiations, but players still have to something clever or it's automatic failure.
I have used wisdom checks to hint if someone is lying to PCs, though that's rare, I prefer to leave them guessing.
Bottom line, no hard rules.
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bea
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Post by bea on Apr 25, 2014 8:55:00 GMT -6
Zulgyan, when you do use them, is it roll d20 below or equal or some other variety of roll?
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Post by scottenkainen on Apr 25, 2014 8:59:55 GMT -6
I gave up ability checks a long time ago. Frankly, I don't see any mechanical need they serve that saving throws do not already do.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 25, 2014 9:02:08 GMT -6
d20 below is the most common, but I also use 3d6 or 4d6 (if test is harded), or 1d6 roll 5+, with +1 if related score is 15+. 2d10 roll below is good too.
I like to keep it varied, because I believe it's more fun that way.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 25, 2014 9:06:03 GMT -6
I gave up ability checks a long time ago. Frankly, I don't see any mechanical need they serve that saving throws do not already do. ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper I haven't found any saving throw useful for certain tests, such as jumping from one building to another, if the jump is difficult. And many others.
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Post by makofan on Apr 25, 2014 9:22:03 GMT -6
I gave up ability checks a long time ago. Frankly, I don't see any mechanical need they serve that saving throws do not already do. ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper When Tristram and Tramtrist got hit by arrows while rushing across the bridge, I had them make DEX checks to not fall off
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 25, 2014 9:36:17 GMT -6
I had the player's fight 2 magic-users and their bodyguards in a cave that was beign wrecked up by a triple sized Purple Worm. Once every other round, due to the violent tremors, each combatant had to roll vs. Dex so as to keep stading on their feet. Otherwise they would lose their actions, spell casting would be spoiled, etc.
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Post by Stormcrow on Apr 25, 2014 9:46:20 GMT -6
I rarely use ability checks. I prefer to use abilities as quantified descriptors, and to base my decisions on this.
For instance, when a player wants to overcome an obstacle, I'll decide how likely it is based on the appropriate ability. Want to bribe a guard? You've got 15 charisma and the guard is not very loyal; no problem. Want to break down a solid oak door? Your strength is only 8; you bash against it for several minutes without success. Your friend with 11 strength wants to try? Okay, roll a d6; it breaks down on a 1.
The trouble with standardized ability checks is that they assume all challenges work on the same probability curve.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 25, 2014 10:03:00 GMT -6
Yes, I also like to keep them to a minimun, solving most stuff through description and DM - Player dialogue, considering stats, character class, race, backround, nature of the task, etc.
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Post by cadriel on Apr 25, 2014 10:47:48 GMT -6
I gave up ability checks a long time ago. Frankly, I don't see any mechanical need they serve that saving throws do not already do. I've used saves in this way before, particularly the saves vs dragon breath and death ray, both of which are nice "dodge" mechanics. (Much more so than Dexterity; I never understood why hand-eye coordination became confused with overall agility and nimbleness in later editions. The game really should have added an Agility score.) But I've never found general uses for the others. What specific things do you do for, say, whether a character can lift a heavy object?
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Post by scottenkainen on Apr 25, 2014 11:13:29 GMT -6
Lifting heavy objects is something Fighters should be best at, so I would use the category that favors the Fighter class the best -- the posion/paralysis/death magic save. Leaping seems like something Thieves would be best at, so I would use the category that favors the Thief class the best -- petrification/polymorph.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 25, 2014 11:45:26 GMT -6
So two fighters of the same level, one with STR 9 and the other with STR 18 would have the same chance of lifting an object? I don't buy it, YMMV.
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Post by makofan on Apr 25, 2014 13:09:43 GMT -6
I agree with Zulgyan. if it is something that experience affects, use saving throw. If it is something that innate ability affects, use attribute checks
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Post by cadriel on Apr 25, 2014 15:06:57 GMT -6
I agree with Zulgyan. if it is something that experience affects, use saving throw. If it is something that innate ability affects, use attribute checks I think it's worth looking at the evolution of saving throws, which Jeff Rients talks about here. Rients notes that the OD&D categories include "Stone" which is useful against non-petrification attacks, as well as Death Rays which inspired one of my blog's most popular posts. ( Save vs. Death Ray!) Looking at the OD&D list, we really can't use the matrix in the way Scottenkainen suggests (which I believe is derived from the AD&D charts rather than OD&D). Clerics are just better at saving throws than everybody else, and everybody's best score is against Death Ray or Poison. Fighting-Men are better versus Dragon Breath than Clerics or M-Us, and vice versa for Spells and Staves. M-Us are marginally better against Stone. Most of the things you can really extend them for (falling rock, dodging something that's not dragon breath or a death ray, etc) are still saving throws at the core. One thing to consider is semi-attribute dependent rolls. OD&D has a general standard like this: Attribute 6 or less: -1 on 1d6 Attribute 8 or less: -1 on 1d20 Attribute 13 or more: +1 on 1d20 Attribute 15 or more: +1 on 1d6 This is a good rule of thumb if you don't want to go to straight roll under attribute on 1d20: you could set a target on 1d6 or 1d20 and give the appropriate bonus or penalty for attributes.
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Post by makofan on Apr 25, 2014 15:11:54 GMT -6
That's the other way I sometimes do it. 1-2 on a d6 is success, with a +1 or -1 based on stats
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