Ability Scores in Blackmoor

[Zulgyan]

Did Blackmoor use STR, INT, WIS, CON, DEX and CHA? Or another array of stats?

Did stats first appear in Blackmoor? If so, why? If so not, why?

Very intrigued!

[aldarron]

Heh. I just saw this question and happen to know the answer from reading posts from Greg Svenson. Arneson invented the ability scores for the very first games. The only difference (edit: that he remembered) was that Charisma was called Appearance. Also, as we've been discussing in the combat threads, the scores were generated with 2d6.

[snorri]

In FFC, there are some clues in the "swords section" (pp. . There, as in many others parts, Dave gave us his draft, without turning it to any D&D standard. Some abilities appears:

-Strength
-Combat (I guess the 'attack score' allready discussed could have been an ability at first).
- Intelligence (alos appears as Intellect, maybe the first form)
-Apparence (very probable, from Svenson quote and from EPT's Comeliness. You can't imagine something more pulp!)

No signs of dexterity and constitution. But their description as "saving throwns" in OD&D, suggest they could have been in use earlier, and were probbaly a part of Dave's manuscript. I suppose Dexterity could first have been the "defense" saving thrown, or at least strongly linked.

I suspect wisdom may have been a late addition, as its description is very poor "Wisdom rating will act much as does that for intelligence.", and its main purpose is to be the cleric prime requisite.

So I suggest the following list of stats in Blackmoor:

- Strenght
- Inteligence / Intelect
- Apparence
- Combat / Attack
- Defence / Dexterity
- Constitution

edit: by the way, I remember reading an interview where dave was explaining more clearly why AC was descending in Ironclad, as 1st class means the best. Can someone find this one, I can't pick it?

[aldarron]

Dexterity shows up in the First Fantasy Campaign in this quote from the Blackmoor Dungeons section:
"They must then avoid drowning (I ask them while they are falling what they are doing; if they are in plate armor, I give them a 1/10 chance of getting It off in time; others must make a throw less than their dexterity rating when they are wearing some other Armor)." p43 (1977).
That combat and attack ratings would be part of that list fits what we've been discussing and the fact that Arneson refers to character statistics/ability scores as the "character matrix" several times in FFC.

[snorri]

After a careful study of the inner chronology of FFC parts (see the discussions here : odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=blackmoor&action=display&thread=2950), my views are more reserved about Blackmoor stats. I got some ideas to check yet, but the list above reflects partially D&D published version influence on1974-1977 Blackmoor campaign, as the 'sword matrix' and the 'castle Blackmoor' have been revised after 1974.

I still think the descriptions of abilities in D&D could help figure what appeared in Blackmoor. I need to examine sthis point more carefuly, but my feeling is that there was no real distinction between saves and abilities, and two may have been in use: Dexterity (to dodge spells) and Constitution (to whistand them).

Also, the Ego in the sword abilities is rather curious. Ego and Egotism are parts of Dave's vocabulary and appears often in FFC. May this have been a score too? "throw a die and compare with Ego and Brains", in the sword matrix, p. 46 (1980) also puzzle me. Why Brains rather inteligence? A former name for the same?

[aldarron]

Dec 4, 2009 16:16:53 GMT -6 snorri said:

After a careful study of the inner chronology of FFC parts (see the discussions here : odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=blackmoor&action=display&thread=2950), my views are more reserved about Blackmoor stats. I got some ideas to check yet, but the list above reflects partially D&D published version influence on1974-1977 Blackmoor campaign, as the 'sword matrix' and the 'castle Blackmoor' have been revised after 1974.

I still think the descriptions of abilities in D&D could help figure what appeared in Blackmoor. I need to examine sthis point more carefuly, but my feeling is that there was no real distinction between saves and abilities, and two may have been in use: Dexterity (to dodge spells) and Constitution (to whistand them).

Imho, its the only thing that makes sense for why the ability scores were created in the first place. If you consider that classes were loosly defined and that levels were limited, why would Arneson find it necessary to invent the ability scores; what need were they intended to fill? They idea that they were invented to determine bonuses for leveling up, etc., just doesn't fit the facts of Blackmoor. Individualized saving throw categories makes perfect sense though, and fits with the Blackmoor notion of fixed HP too - meaning the all physical characteristics were stable numbers. Of course, we also have Svenson telling us he used the ability scores for saving throws in the Sham interview.

Dec 4, 2009 16:16:53 GMT -6 snorri said:

Also, the Ego in the sword abilities is rather curious. Ego and Egotism are parts of Dave's vocabulary and appears often in FFC. May this have been a score too? "throw a die and compare with Ego and Brains", in the sword matrix, p. 46 (1980) also puzzle me. Why Brains rather inteligence? A former name for the same?

I think Ego as a statistic was probably just for swords and maybe other inanimate magical objects. That reference to Brains is interesting though. Maybe, just Arneson being a little cavalier with terms, as he tended to be.

[aldarron]

Here is a quote from Arnesons "A Quarter Century of Role Playing?" from his website jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/Archive_OLD/rpg2.html that provides some confirmation for the 1-10 range for ability scores. (2d6-2)
" "So my familiar is bigger, stronger, and smarter than me. Well can I run him
instead?" Player comment after rolling six '01' on a row. (NPCs with character)"

Obviously there is no way to roll a 1 with 2 d6 or three d6, and six in a row must refer to the familiar six ability scores.

[geordie]

Dec 9, 2009 12:18:46 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Here is a quote from Arnesons "A Quarter Century of Role Playing?" from his website jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/Archive_OLD/rpg2.html that provides some confirmation for the 1-10 range for ability scores. (2d6-2)
" "So my familiar is bigger, stronger, and smarter than me. Well can I run him
instead?" Player comment after rolling six '01' on a row. (NPCs with character)"

Obviously there is no way to roll a 1 with 2 d6 or three d6, and six in a row must refer to the familiar six ability scores.

(OT: So, a magic-using character could have a familiar at 1st Level.)

[snorri]

"So my familiar is bigger, stronger, and smarter than me. Well can I run him instead?" Player comment after rolling six '01' on a row. (NPCs with character)"

Good catch! Two possible very litteral reading:

- There are three abilities: Size, Strenght and Smart / Charisma. [Dave seems to take size in consideration, but no eveidence it could have been an ability as such]

- there are six abilities, each one rolling one dice. [no evidence, but why not. After all, abilities / save seems to have raised with levels]

[aldarron]

My reading of it is that a player rolled for a wizard character, who somehow, possibly through inheritance, owned a familiar with much better stats.

[aldarron]

I never cease to be amazed by how each time I look at the First Fantasy Campaign some new little nugget appears. In the matrix section on swords, Arneson gives an example of how to make an ability check - its adapted to the d12 for OD&D but the stats look like they are older, and the procedure is basically what Lionheart and Svenson have said.
"In cases where the Sword's Intelligence would be of importance, say, while lost in a maze, a die roll that scores less than the number of the Sword's Intelligence will allow it to act, whereas a score equal to or higher than the Sword's Inteligence will gain no reaction from the Sword." He lists the inteligence scores as " Sword: Intellect 7; Player: Intellect 8;"
Clearly fitting the 2d6 scores better than the 3d6 standard.

And then there is this bit from Richard Sniders additions: "Basilisk. when you look.t it. If you don't make the saving thow of 7, you are stone." Interestingly, this is the same as, and no doubt comes from, Chainmail.

[captainjapan]

What was the function of Intelligence(Brains) originally? Was there a stronger focus on multilingualism than I'm imagining? Did brains already impact a Wizard's spellcasting, at this early stage? Brains was a legitimate PC stat; but I think it makes more sense if it would have started out an NPC stat, like loyalty.

[aldarron]

Sept 19, 2019 0:09:31 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

What was the function of Intelligence(Brains) originally? Was there a stronger focus on multilingualism than I'm imagining?

No the Brains score in Blackmoor had no tie in to the number of Languages known. That was apparently a Gygax invention.

The function of Intelligence(Brains) as with any of the personality trait scores in Blackmoor was both a general guide to what a character was like or what they were good at, a threshold number for accomplishing certain tasks, and mechanically served as a saving throw.

Sp you might need a Brains of 10 to operate the tricorder, perhaps. Or you might have to roll a save against your health score or die from poison - that sort of thing.

Sept 19, 2019 0:09:31 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Did brains already impact a Wizard's spellcasting, at this early stage?

I don't think so, however, health did. In the FFC, Arneson said he would sometimes require an exhaustion roll for spellcasting.

[captainjapan]

Aldarron,

Brains/ Intellect/ Intelligence is one of the oldest(if not the oldest) ability score I could find. But, it didn't sit well in the context of Blackmoor play, where form follows function. I had assumed that, as the character names were send-ups of the names of the original players, the characters' personalities would likewise be subordinate to the players' own personalities. Brains is older than Blackmoor, though.

Since the twin cities group was conducting mass combat at the same time that they were developing roleplaying, shouldn't ability scores be only those traits that would be useful to commanding troops(leadership, appearance, etc.)?

Intelligence seems to me to be better suited to NPCs than to players. I would assume that the very first recorded character stats existed to modify the odds of success in battle. If I was a general ordering units into contact with the enemy, I would hope for my field commanders to have high scores in Guts(so that they can maintain morale) and Brains(so that they don't screw up my orders).

If it's a game of national leadership and political maneauverings, then I can even understand the old Sex score for marrying and producing heirs. On the Spanish Royals character sheet, there is not only Sex and Looks, but Guts and Brains. It doesn't seem in keeping with the "old school spirit" to ask players to submit to an arbitrary die roll that decides a player character's decision making ability. Most players today would agree that it isn't reasonable to require morale rolls for a character under the player's direct control. So,why should they have to check intelligence?

I'm not denying that that's how it worked, mind you. Perhaps the inclusion of the personality traits(Brains, Cunning, Guts) marks the beginning of roleplaying the personality of a character different from the player's own personality. Since the attribute scores were already established by the time of Blackmoor, I'm thinking maybe I should take this to the Braunstein thread. I'm just not sure.

I'm totally onboard with Brains being a save vs. Charm-type spells or other mind control type powers. Also, my impression is that saves predate ability checks. I wonder what else might you use Brains to save against? I'm agreeable to checking Intelligence when attempting to understand how to use gonzo, sci-fi tech in the campaign. I like this use of the intelligence score very much.

[aldarron]

Sept 22, 2019 16:01:24 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Aldarron,

Brains/ Intellect/ Intelligence is one of the oldest(if not the oldest) ability score I could find. But, it didn't sit well in the context of Blackmoor play, where form follows function. I had assumed that, as the character names were send-ups of the names of the original players, the characters' personalities would likewise be subordinate to the players' own personalities. Brains is older than Blackmoor, though.

Well, not really. The only "send up" name I can think of for the initial players would be Marfeldt, and that might have come a bit later after he was basically kicked out of the group. The other send ups, like the Egg and the Ran, were directed at folks who had split off of the Napoleonics under some contentious circumstances and were not Blackmoor players. The other guys did start off in the first couple games playing themselves (on a rescue mission to find Arneson lost in Iceland), but really quickly (as in the second or third game) began to develop separate personas just as they had in Brownstone and Braunstein previously - sometimes without names. Ross Maker, for example, played "the dwarf". Megarry's very first character circa August of 71 was a mob boss named McDuck. Some of the guys did give their characters names that played on their own name, Mello the Hobbit and Mi-Karr the Wizard, but these were still very much characters, just as, for example Gygax's Yrag was a character.

Sept 22, 2019 16:01:24 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Since the twin cities group was conducting mass combat at the same time that they were developing roleplaying, shouldn't ability scores be only those traits that would be useful to commanding troops(leadership, appearance, etc.)?

Intelligence seems to me to be better suited to NPCs than to players. I would assume that the very first recorded character stats existed to modify the odds of success in battle. If I was a general ordering units into contact with the enemy, I would hope for my field commanders to have high scores in Guts(so that they can maintain morale) and Brains(so that they don't screw up my orders).

No because they weren't just playing commanders. They played national leaders, statesmen, ambassadors, religious leaders, and so forth, and in the Braunstien games, they were playing everything from librarians to bandits. What you are describing was a thing in Tony Bath's Hyborian wargames, but what was going on in the TC was quite different.

Sept 22, 2019 16:01:24 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

If it's a game of national leadership and political maneauverings, then I can even understand the old Sex score for marrying and producing heirs. On the Spanish Royals character sheet, there is not only Sex and Looks, but Guts and Brains. It doesn't seem in keeping with the "old school spirit" to ask players to submit to an arbitrary die roll that decides a player character's decision making ability. Most players today would agree that it isn't reasonable to require morale rolls for a character under the player's direct control. So,why should they have to check intelligence?

Because the check is on the character's intelligence, not the players.

Sept 22, 2019 16:01:24 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

I'm not denying that that's how it worked, mind you. Perhaps the inclusion of the personality traits(Brains, Cunning, Guts) marks the beginning of roleplaying the personality of a character different from the player's own personality. Since the attribute scores were already established by the time of Blackmoor, I'm thinking maybe I should take this to the Braunstein thread. I'm just not sure.

So "Braunstien" was a developing game, and being initially all one off affairs, there wasn't much need for ability scores etc. However, as the game evolved, especially with the introduction of the "campaign Braunstein" that was Brownstone, scores like those being developed in the Napoleonics campaign became much more useful.

Sept 22, 2019 16:01:24 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

I'm totally onboard with Brains being a save vs. Charm-type spells or other mind control type powers. Also, my impression is that saves predate ability checks. I wonder what else might you use Brains to save against? I'm agreeable to checking Intelligence when attempting to understand how to use gonzo, sci-fi tech in the campaign. I like this use of the intelligence score very much.

Yeah, "saving throw" goes back to wargames, but I don't think Arneson & crew wouldn't have made a distinction between a "saving throw" and an "abitlity check" really. One really common use of the Intelligence score would be in tests of will against a magic sword.