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Post by vladtolenkov on May 21, 2014 16:38:54 GMT -6
I think they wouldn't want to alienate new customers who weren't even sure about playing this D&D game with the commitment of an initial subscription. Whatever it is, hopefully, it's free.
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 21, 2014 16:40:02 GMT -6
Okay so I was totally wrong about the theorizing about products thing. . . Hey, theorizing about upcoming products is fun! You've started an interesting thread of conversation and that's never a bad thing! Absolutely: I just thought we were finally on solid ground and WOTC threw me back in the pool!
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 21, 2014 16:48:46 GMT -6
Or there's some OTHER unannounced product that we don't know about yet: A Player's Guide? Downloadable PDF? An App? I'm note sure if any of those work. Maybe all of the above?
Somebody pointed out that 3E initially came with a character builder that took you to 20th level. Why not make that available for free online? Especially if it's easy to make a PC.
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Post by geoffrey on May 21, 2014 17:40:33 GMT -6
If Pathfinder (the heaviest game under the sun) can fit chargen rules in its Beginner Box, why can’t “lite and modular” 5e fit chargen rules in its Starter Set? I’ll tell you why this disappoints me. I’m an old schooler and I’m never going to change. But I need a product that I can buy new and give to kids that I know, that will AT ALL resemble D&D as I understand it, so that if those kids come back to me with anecdotes or asking for advice I will have any sort of clue what they are talking about. Recently I went on eBay and paid top dollar for a pristine Mentzer set and a pristine copy of B2 to give to some kids I know. They understand it perfectly, and their anecdotes show an INSANE level of creativity and originality in their play. It ain’t broke… So just put it back in print, already. Amen. I was thoroughly prepared to take this boxed set seriously. I was thoroughly prepared to buy it and even write modules for it. I cannot even imagine a decent excuse to not include character generation rules in it. No matter what other "zowie-bang shiny awesome innovative hip whatever" thing WotC thinks it has cooked-up, there is no conceivable reason to not ALSO include character generation in the box, which would take a dozen pages or even fewer.
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Post by kesher on May 21, 2014 17:48:46 GMT -6
I actually would have no problem with a "create an account and get basic character creation rules for free (PDF/online generator, whatever. Actually, a printable random generator would be awesome...) to expand your Starter Set" approach. It even makes sense to me, given how mainstream business is conducted these days.
A question I haven't heard addressed: Are they going to sell PDFs of the core books?
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bea
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Post by bea on May 22, 2014 0:44:41 GMT -6
Except that one of the things we were told about 5E’s design was that at its core it was as lite as Basic, and everything else in the game was optional/modular. I think, based on that, that old-schoolers had a reasonable hope that the new Starter Set would be a complete (albeit lite) game. Turns out it’s crippleware, and if you want to try to play 5e Basic-style, you’ll have to buy the full 960-page monstrosity and see if you can pare it down. No thank you. If Pathfinder (the heaviest game under the sun) can fit chargen rules in its Beginner Box, why can’t “lite and modular” 5e fit chargen rules in its Starter Set? I’ll tell you why this disappoints me. I’m an old schooler and I’m never going to change. But I need a product that I can buy new and give to kids that I know, that will AT ALL resemble D&D as I understand it, so that if those kids come back to me with anecdotes or asking for advice I will have any sort of clue what they are talking about. Recently I went on eBay and paid top dollar for a pristine Mentzer set and a pristine copy of B2 to give to some kids I know. They understand it perfectly, and their anecdotes show an INSANE level of creativity and originality in their play. It ain’t broke… So just put it back in print, already. The thing is that fully adequate variations of the basic sets are in print in the shape of OSR clones - and very cheap at that! Do WotC want to compete with them? That said I think they could make an easy buck just putting one of the basic sets back in print (on demand).
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machpants
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Post by machpants on May 22, 2014 0:53:37 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 1:28:01 GMT -6
The thing is that fully adequate variations of the basic sets are in print in the shape of OSR clones - and very cheap at that! Do WotC want to compete with them? Hasbro would very much like to win the dollars going into the OSR, of this I'm quite certain. If a large corporation like Hasbro really throws it weight into a good product it won't be much of a contest for us hobby publishers, even the larger among us will have a tough time competing. It remains to be seen, of course, how the public will react to the new game and whether Hasbro aggressively supports it. From their point of view it probably wouldn't be a cost-effective move for them to reprint the older editions, except as expensive collector editions as we saw with AD&D and OD&D. One possible alternative is for Hasbro to license the game to a company like Winning Moves Games that prints classic (or retro) versions of Monopoly, Risk, and Clue. That way they could profit with no real effort and financial outlay on their part.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 1:53:00 GMT -6
It's reassuring that with his inside track on the new edition he's still positive about the Starter Set. I guess in a month or three we'll be able to decide for ourselves but I'm certainly feeling optimistic.
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machpants
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Post by machpants on May 22, 2014 2:59:35 GMT -6
As long as you go into it thinking this is something I could get for somebody I know to play D&D for the first time, then yeah I think it will be good. If you go in looking for the Basic Game, I think you are going to be disappointed.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 22, 2014 3:30:25 GMT -6
If a large corporation like Hasbro really throws it weight into a good product it won't be much of a contest for us hobby publishers, even the larger among us will have a tough time competing. I don't believe WotC or any single corporation can compete with the OSR for creative output. "We" (the OSR) are thousands of passionate, creative people doing it for the love of it. "They" (the Corporates) may be passionate and creative too; they may even be better at it than we are. But in the end they are just one department of one business, creating within corporate constraints.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 4:01:51 GMT -6
I don't believe WotC or any single corporation can compete with the OSR for creative output. "We" (the OSR) are thousands of passionate, creative people doing it for the love of it. "They" (the Corporates) may be passionate and creative too; they may even be better at it than we are. But in the end they are just one department of one business, creating within corporate constraints. At the risk of self-aggrandizement, I agree. But, we're not talking creative output are we? We're speaking of mass marketing. Hasbro has the big name and reputation (deserved or not, I'll not debate that here) and the dollars to throw at an ad campaign. This is what will get the attention of the public at large. And their attention is what is needed if D&D is to reclaim its position as industry leader. One need only to look at the film industry for an example. Sparkling indie films get little notice while summer tent-pole films get major attention in the media, and the money to go with it, to illustrate the difference.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 22, 2014 4:17:33 GMT -6
I know what you're saying. That's the way of the World isn't it?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 4:23:07 GMT -6
I know what you're saying. That's the way of the World isn't it? Unfortunately, yes. It reminds me of the cynic's Golden Rule: whoever has the gold makes the rules!
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Post by kesher on May 22, 2014 8:58:28 GMT -6
Well, that convinced me. I'm pre-ordering. I mean, I don't always agree with the RPGP, and he certainly likes to play the role of agitator, but he's always struck me as an honest agitator. And that first post was pretty straight-up.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 9:21:08 GMT -6
I mean, I don't always agree with the RPGP, and he certainly likes to play the role of agitator, but he's always struck me as an honest agitator. And that first post was pretty straight-up. He swayed me, too. I'll be purchasing the SS for an overview and evaluation of the new edition.
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Post by cooper on May 22, 2014 9:36:37 GMT -6
Actually, they don't care at all. The IP of D&D is orders of magnitude more valuable that any all RPGs and adventures. Licensing is where the money is to be made. They are doing what Disney is doing with the new Star Wars: spend a paltry sum of money (to them) to make a good product that fans will like and then make billions of dollars off of licensing fees for coffee cups, tv shows, books etc.
Hasbro can make more money in a day selling the rights to the battleship game for a movie that they could make in 100 years printing rules. The same applies to the Tolkien estate or Gary gygax's dungeons and dragons.
Their wealth is in "public consciousness". The more it's referenced in pop culture the more it's worth as a "brand". D&D wants to be a brand again. The rules are whatever.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 9:51:11 GMT -6
Actually, they don't care at all. I respectfully disagree. They are a company putting out a product. They've devoted a lot of time and energy into this upcoming edition. There is no way a business will throw money away on something they don't care about. Especially something they don't care about "at all." I'm sure they have product lines more important than others, and D&D may be of lesser import to them in the grand scheme of things. This is, however, a far cry from "don't care at all."
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Post by cooper on May 22, 2014 10:19:13 GMT -6
They care about the brand a great deal--especially the game designers themselves. My point is that paperback sales of game supplements isn't even on Hasbro's radar (the suits, lawyers and execs). I recall an interview with Mike Mearles where he said executives in the corp. said they will begin downsizing the d&d department if they don't grow to one hundred million dollars per year. Obviously a good RPG underpins the brand, but it's much more about image and selling that image to other corporations to license.
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 22, 2014 10:28:09 GMT -6
Also: the Starter set has a 32 page book for players and a 64 page book for DMs. So What the hell IS in there if there's no character creation or advancement?
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 22, 2014 10:41:19 GMT -6
Okay. . .confirmation.
15% of the Player's Handbook will be available FOR FREE as a download allowing you to make characters of your own. This is seen as a bridge between the Starter Set and the PH.
I'm guessing it's the four core classes.
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 22, 2014 10:44:21 GMT -6
Also: that might indicate the download would allow you to take those classes all the way to 20th level. Which hopefully means Starter Set + Download= FULL D&D GAME.
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 22, 2014 10:48:41 GMT -6
So you might NEVER have to buy the DMG or the PH. Although if people start playing this way I'm sure they're hoping that folks will at least break down and buy the MM.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 22, 2014 12:28:16 GMT -6
Somebody pointed out that 3E initially came with a character builder that took you to 20th level. Why not make that available for free online? Especially if it's easy to make a PC. This is a comment that I don't hear often enough. I still have my 3E rulebook with character generation software. What WotC did right was: (1) Cheap intro price for the player's handbook (2) Reduce complexity by giving away the chargen software. While neither one was probably critical to the success or failure of 3E, both caused me to buy in. As it turned out I wasn't really fond of the direction the game took, but I did buy all of the core rulebooks and gave the thing a shot. With Next being different from 4E, and 4E being different from 3E, and 3E being different from AD&D/2E, WotC has to overcome the "yet another edition" syndrome where folks might not buy just because it's different. Easy access to character generation software (even if it doesn't have all of the bells and whistles) would help folks give the game a try. I know that what I don't want to do is spend $100+ on a game and then have it sit on my shelf because it's not my thing.
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Post by Falconer on May 22, 2014 12:35:54 GMT -6
Okay… Trying to process this…
Actually, that 15%*PHB PDF sounds like a solid Basic D&D. That’s pretty attractive; pity it won’t be available in hardcopy.
Get the Starter Set if you want to run the included module; otherwise there’s no point to it.
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 22, 2014 12:56:31 GMT -6
My earlier comment about the content of the Starter Set was me totally forgetting that the 64 page book was supposed to be a module.
Somebody at WOTC (I Think) described it as "The Greatest Intro Adventure Ever"--so what's that supposed to mean?
my guess is that we're getting an adaptation of Keep on the Borderlands! I don't think they would say that about some new thing we're all going to eye suspiciously (even if it WAS good).
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Post by kesher on May 22, 2014 13:08:54 GMT -6
Hey vladtolenkov: where did you find confirmation?? OH, and the Amazon pre-order price is, as of right now, $12.61... Pre-order complete.
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Post by cooper on May 22, 2014 13:37:15 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure you can buy the starter set (which will explain rules like "advantage/disadvantage" initiative, monster stat blocks etc) and jump straight to just buying the adventure modules and use them with your ad&d/od&d characters.
Does anyone here really need to be told how to roll stats or extend levels or be told what 3d6 means?
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Post by kesher on May 22, 2014 13:38:35 GMT -6
Just answered my previous questions. More info here: EN World. Heh.
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Post by vladtolenkov on May 22, 2014 13:40:54 GMT -6
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