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Post by oakesspalding on Jan 9, 2014 14:06:26 GMT -6
I’m posting this in both the General Discussion section and the Men & Magic section of Original D&D Discussion. I hope that’s okay. (Should they be consolidated in one or the other, Finarvyn?) Announcing SEVEN VOYAGES of ZYLARTHEN, published by Campion & Clitherow! From the Foreword to Vol. 1: ONCE UPON A TIME almost forty years ago, two amateur historians—one temporarily working as a shoe repairman, the other as a security guard—released a little game in the form of three forty page booklets. With an odd but intriguing name suggested by the shoe repairman’s daughter, these “Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns” sold one thousand copies in their first year, mostly to military hobbyists and collectors of miniature lead soldiers…
And that’s where the story ends, at least for our purposes. SEVEN VOYAGES of ZYLARTHEN is a re-imagining of the original edition of the world’s most popular paper and pencil fantasy adventure game, first published by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in 1974. The brilliance and charm of the earliest version was its simplicity and elegance, combined with a certain asymmetrical quirkiness. It invoked many sources—King Arthur, the Crusades, Middle-earth, the Arabian Nights, pulp fantasy, fairy tales, even science fiction. Its breadth of tone was a virtue, offering to the players a multiplicity of delights. Our intention was to follow the spirit of the original as closely as possible. We hope that we have (if only partially and in a small way) captured it.
Happy dungeoneering! Guard the innocent! Avenge the wronged! May you find heaps of gold at the end of your path, or at the least a memorable and heroic demise! But above all, God grant that you find wonder everywhere!
Since I’ve learned much from the discussions on this site, as well as from what many of the contributors have said elsewhere in blogs and other places, any feedback would be enjoyable for me, and of course helpful. PDF’s of all four volumes are available for free download. Lulu did a fabulous job with the physical booklets. The creamy covers and high-quality paper show off the simple but elegant "old-school" font and the wonderful John Dickson Batten drawings to great effect. And the saddle stitch binding allows one to easily lie any of the volumes flat for reference. The Lulu search address is: www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?type=&keyWords=zylarthen&x=0&y=0&sitesearch=lulu.com&q=Or you can read a bit more introductory material about the game, and then click through to Lulu if you wish at: saveversusallwands.blogspot.comI hope you enjoy it. Oakes
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Post by Red Baron on Jan 9, 2014 20:13:55 GMT -6
Great pictures. I like the emphasis on prices for boats and buildings. My quibble would be that a lot of the rules seem really cumbersome and excessive, but I guess it is a rulebook so I can't really complain because its purpose is to provide rules.
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Post by archersix on Jan 9, 2014 21:14:38 GMT -6
Just downloaded them. In the process of reading Book I. So far it looks really neat.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jan 10, 2014 2:16:58 GMT -6
Great pictures. I like the emphasis on prices for boats and buildings. Thanks! The boats were a tribute to the naval rules of U&W, and thus act as an (exceedingly small) skeletal mechanic for naval campaigns. I did not have the desire to go farther with it for Zylarthen. Unlike the prices for some other items, I think Gygax/Arneson got these about right, so I simply added prices for Viking "Longships" and "Sailed Warships". Dwellings just seemed to fill a need that was inexplicably not really covered in either OD&D or AD&D-until you got to name level, at which point every nook and cranny in your prospective castle was kindly described and priced for you. So you know how much a songbird or ball of wax costs, but what about a small but sturdy house that you can lie low in for a while or hide your spell books in? But most importantly, I think pricing certain things can set a certain tone, whether or not the players will ever use the stuff or not. So you might never buy a merchant ship or even a raft, but you're reminded that rafting and sea fights and Vikings and all the rest are part of the world. Ditto for the amplified list of military hirelings. I want new players to at least be intrigued by the list-"What's a Hoplite, Varangian or Turcopole?" (answers in Vol. 2) "I don't know but they sound cool." Or at least that's the hope if I have done things correctly. I like to think that the initial attraction for many of us of OD&D or even early AD&D was that sort of detail. That illustration is from "The Lambton Worm," drawn 120 years ago. What is old can be new again. My quibble would be that a lot of the rules seem really cumbersome and excessive, but I guess it is a rulebook so I can't really complain because its purpose is to provide rules. For an old school game, isn't that a bit like saying, "You're lovely and beautiful but aren't you just a bit overweight?" Seriously, I hope they're not like that. But it can be true that after you've had the rules in your head for months, they can SEEM simple, but you lose perspective on what your readers might think. I assume you're alluding to the combat options (or perhaps encumbrance)? Some of the combat rules such as those concerning Weapon Class I felt flowed organically from Chainmail/OD&D, or are simply modified Chainmail. A few others seemed like simple and intuitive additions, and some others were "optional" ideas, to use or not. I tried to follow the example of OD&D, with a minimalist and/or vague take on, say, the use of abilities, structured around a more explicit framework regarding combat. To me, my 3 page "Combat Actions" is my perhaps ungainly way of more explicitly laying out what I assume many DM's do anyway. Thank you for your comments, Redbaron!
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Post by Lorgalis on Jan 10, 2014 19:26:20 GMT -6
Would you please post an in depth combat example. How you would run it. I would find it very helpful.
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Post by derv on Jan 10, 2014 22:59:17 GMT -6
I just downloaded it. I think you've captured the aesthetics of the original game. I'll have to read through them before I can comment, but right off the back the Attack Capability of classes caught my eye because it definately deviates from Fighting Capability in the original rules. So it has me wondering what purpose it serves. Off to find out. Thanks for sharing with the community.
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Post by Porphyre on Jan 11, 2014 1:34:24 GMT -6
Downloaded it. I now must find the time to read it before coming back with some questions.
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Post by peterlind on Jan 12, 2014 1:38:26 GMT -6
Very nice game . . . still checking it out . . .
I note that in Volume 1, "Explanation of Abilities," Strength does not add to attack rolls, but only to melee damage. . .
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 12, 2014 5:58:53 GMT -6
I’m posting this in both the General Discussion section and the Men & Magic section of Original D&D Discussion. I hope that’s okay. (Should they be consolidated in one or the other, Finarvyn?) I watched both threads for a couple days and think it makes sense to put 'em both together in the "General" section for now.
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Post by peterlind on Jan 12, 2014 16:15:32 GMT -6
I have some questions and observations from Volume 1, Characters and Combat:
1. Fighters. On page 5, it is said that fighters progress most rapidly on the attack tables. However, the attack table on page 30 seems to be based solely on weapon class. Can you please explain how level plays into the attack tables?
2. Thieves. First, an observation that "Hide in Shadows" is indented on page 5 but the later thief abilities on the next page are not indented. Also, how does "Move Silently" fit in with this system? Is it to be subsumed with the Surprise rules? If so, are thieves better at this than other classes? The Surprise ability refers to an attack bonus for thieves in surprise situations but I am not able to locate the reference in other parts of the work. Other thieving abilities do not seem to be mentioned, such as pick pocket or remove traps. Generally, is there a level-based benefit for the thief class? In other words, what benefit will there be for a character to advance in level in this class? I am having a hard time seeing any . . . Lastly, the thief level advancement table on p. 29 transitions from 8+3 HD at level 14 to 8+1 HD at level 15. Is this supposed to be 9+1 HD?
Overall, I really like what you have done with OD&D, particularly with the cleric class . . .
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Post by Red Baron on Jan 12, 2014 18:03:29 GMT -6
Overall, I really like what you have done with OD&D, particularly with the cleric class . . .
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Post by oakesspalding on Jan 12, 2014 22:15:12 GMT -6
I have some questions and observations from Volume 1, Characters and Combat: 1. Fighters. On page 5, it is said that fighters progress most rapidly on the attack tables. However, the attack table on page 30 seems to be based solely on weapon class. Can you please explain how level plays into the attack tables? It’s my own confusion with terminology. I should have said “Hit Dice” and “Attack Capability” (see p. 28 for Fighting-Men). Thieves. First, an observation that "Hide in Shadows" is indented on page 5 but the later thief abilities on the next page are not indented. The other abilities are indented on the next page but you might have missed it as the margin shifts by .25”. It shifts back and forth every other page to facilitate a clearer presentation when printed in book or pamphlet form. I suppose I could have changed this for the PDF, but if you print out the PDF two pages to a page (as I often do with items of this size) or if you look at two pages at once on your screen, the shifting margins make things a bit clearer. I suppose I’ll consider making margins uniform for the PDF, though I’m not sure it would be for the best. Also, how does "Move Silently" fit in with this system? Is it to be subsumed with the Surprise rules? If so, are thieves better at this than other classes? Thieves aren’t inherently better at moving silently, but their presumed low encumbrance might make them the best practical choice. Plus you would be able to combine sneaking with hiding at the end of it or with a surprise attack: Thieves will usually choose to equip themselves lightly. As a consequence (no emphasis in the original) they will often be the best choice for operations involving moving quietly, climbing and so on (on Thieves, p. 5). A character wishing to move quietly, climb a nearly vertical wall or engage in any other similar delicate task is usually advised to be unencumbered (on Encumbrance, p. 19). So a Fighting-Man could sneak perfectly well, as long as he was willing to take off his plate armor and put down his battle axe or shield in favor of a dagger or (short) sword. Ditto for a Magic-User, although do you really want to use your nuke for that? Now I didn’t define how a referee should adjudicate climbing, sneaking and so on. That was completely intentional and I did it for about five different reasons. I could have explicitly explained that I wasn’t going to set out methods for adjudicating those things (I did in an early draft), but I decided that even that might raise more questions and confusions. So I just decided to leave it. But you might be right that it might confuse some people or leave them looking for something that isn’t there. The Surprise ability refers to an attack bonus for thieves in surprise situations but I am not able to locate the reference in other parts of the work. The surprise bonus is set out on p. 29. Curiously, peterlind, you stumbled onto perhaps the most egregious erratum of the entire volume, as the surprise bonus should go +9, +16, +24, +31 (as opposed to +5, +11, +19, +26). Why would, say, a +24 bonus help you? Because under the combat options you can “trade in” multiples of 5 “to hit” points for en extra die of damage for each 5. So actually the bonuses simply track the OD&D +4 “backstab” bonus with the standard doubling, tripling or quadrupling of damage. Other thieving abilities do not seem to be mentioned, such as pick pocket or remove traps. For some of the same reasons as those pertaining to climbing and sneaking (not argued for in this post), as well as some other reasons, I didn’t want to set these out explicitly but preferred to leave it up to the referee perhaps with the input of the players. So for example, an early draft of Thieves had this paragraph: Other Talents: The referee may rule, perhaps based on the desire, creativity or ingenuity of the player, that Thieves have other specialized talents unique to their vocation, such as opening locks (with or without the proper tools), picking pockets and so on. How these may work in practice will be up to the referee. However, the introduction of an explicit or defined skill resolution system is not recommended.You are told how Thieves grew up: Most Thieves grew up “on the street” in a large city. As a result, all speak Cant—the language of the urban underworld. They are adept at making contact with the criminal element or black market in any familiar or even somewhat familiar town or city, as well as where possible, lining up a free or inexpensive “safe-house” to lie low in for a awhile (though that sort of living arrangement may not sit well with all party members).But I wanted to leave it open as to precisely how this might be cashed out. Among other things, I didn’t want to make it mandatory that all Thieves were “professionals” or even actual “thieves” in the sense of wanting to steal things. Generally, is there a level-based benefit for the thief class? In other words, what benefit will there be for a character to advance in level in this class? I am having a hard time seeing any . . . Sure, you get more hit dice, regular attack bonuses and surprise attack bonuses, as well as better saving throws (no less and indeed slightly more things increasing than the Fighting-Man gets). Now, that’s a bit different from the standard Thief, I know, but I like it more (again for reasons that I won’t argue for here). Lastly, the thief level advancement table on p. 29 transitions from 8+3 HD at level 14 to 8+1 HD at level 15. Is this supposed to be 9+1 HD? You got me again on that one, peterlind. Yes, it should be 9+1. Where were you when I was proofreading a month ago? Overall, for the Thief, I wanted his advantages and thus motivations and actions to grow organically from a small number of differences (including that he would probably be more scantily clad) as opposed to being defined by a list of percentile rolls. Again, though I won’t argue for the thesis here, it goes back to the well-known old school anti-Thief argument that the standard Greyhawk/AD&D Thief tends to suck some of the ingenuity and role-playing out of play for all classes (including the Thief himself). Overall, I really like what you have done with OD&D, particularly with the cleric class . . . Do you mean you like that I killed it? Or are you talking about the NPC clerics in Volume 2? Thanks again for your comments and much appreciated proof reading.
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Post by peterlind on Jan 13, 2014 21:34:20 GMT -6
Thank you for your comments . . .
1. Fighters. Re your quote: "It’s my own confusion with terminology. I should have said “Hit Dice” and “Attack Capability” (see p. 28 for Fighting-Men)."
Actually, I was confused because at first I was thinking you had some reason to preserve some kind of compatibility with Chainmail as with OD&D. Thus, I was looking for an Alternate Combat System that was not there. . . .
My first RPG was Metamorphosis Alpha, which has the Weapon Class vs. Armor Class tables. I prefer that implementation of Weapon vs. Armor than what ended up in Greyhawk. So I think I get it now:
For example, a 4th level Fighter will have +2 on the D20 roll to hit on the Man vs. Man table, and so forth. (A humble suggestion that you might want to spell this out . . .)
2. Thieves. Thanks for your explanations. I am in agreement. For example, if you read the John Carter of Mars stories, you see the Fighters sneaking around a lot . . .
Re: Your Quote: “Now I didn’t define how a referee should adjudicate climbing, sneaking and so on.” It is okay with me. This is up to your discretion as the designer.
“Other Talents” etc. I do not mind seeing the Thief class as a bit ambiguous so that on one hand, one GM/player could play the class strictly as a guild thief, while on the other hand, another player could play the class as more of a sly rogue type. So I don’t mind letting them have a general, open ended ability that allows them to commit all manner of deception, trickery and skullduggery. While the fighter tends to take things head on, the thief tends to find a more subtle way of handling things . . .
3. The Cleric. Re: Your Quote: "Do you mean you like that I killed it? Or are you talking about the NPC clerics in Volume 2?" Actually both. If someone wants to play a priestly-type character, then that character really could be a fighter, magic-user, or thief, depending on his methods of operation . . . Your magic system is flexible enough that I could define priesthoods as magic-users with a pre-defined selection of spells. I also like the way you defined the NPC clerics (i.e. not casting spells until at a higher level). This seems closer to the swords & sorcery roots.
Thanks for a great game.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jan 15, 2014 2:01:06 GMT -6
Thank you for your comments . . . Actually, I was confused because at first I was thinking you had some reason to preserve some kind of compatibility with Chainmail as with OD&D. Thus, I was looking for an Alternate Combat System that was not there. . . . My first RPG was Metamorphosis Alpha, which has the Weapon Class vs. Armor Class tables. I prefer that implementation of Weapon vs. Armor than what ended up in Greyhawk. So I think I get it now: For example, a 4th level Fighter will have +2 on the D20 roll to hit on the Man vs. Man table, and so forth. (A humble suggestion that you might want to spell this out . . .) Yes, that sort of answers Derv's question. I wanted to use varying weapon effectiveness against different armor classes, but thought it would be clearer if I flipped it from Greyhawk: You start with the weapons vs. armor and then modify it by class and level, which exactly tracks the table in Men & Magic p. 19. I imitated the aesthetics, though not the actual meaning, of the "Man to Man" Combat system in Chainmail. I know that confused some people. In some ways I was attracted by the sometime cryptic quality of the 3 LBB's. In that spirit, I didn't want to spell everything out. I'm not saying that's right, only confessing my own state of mind. I haven't forgotten Lorgalis's request, but I think I'm somewhat intimidated by it. i'm scared I'll make things even more confusing. But I'm thinking...
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Post by Lorgalis on Jan 15, 2014 20:16:52 GMT -6
I am easy to please and if you can publish a set of books, I am sure my request will be a piece of cake for you . Take your time...I am patient.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jan 17, 2014 1:46:08 GMT -6
Well, Zylarthen has its first review on Aeons & Augauries by JDJarvis. It's in three parts, here, here and here. Many good quotes from the review. My favorite is: "Some of the giant insects are simply menacing, others bothersome, and some down right surprising." I assume he's referring to the ants, moths, locusts or bumblebees. (The latter three represent some of my attempt to expand on "Flyers" in The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures.) I like the way the review keyed into the oddities of the 3 LBB's that I tried to preserve, but that were quickly eclipsed and by Greyhawk and then 1e (and thus all but forgotten). What's old can be new again...
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Post by oakesspalding on Jan 27, 2014 1:28:40 GMT -6
Zylarthen is 10% off for the next 24 hours, in honor of the original Xylarthen's 40th birthday! Tip: Some of you may know this already, but the cheapest shipping option on Lulu (U.S. Mail-one notch lower than the Lulu default) seems to deliver the goods just as fast as the more expensive option. Or at least it did for my most recent attempt.
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Post by Mike on Sept 1, 2014 8:57:26 GMT -6
Um... Flippin" awesome!
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Post by Mike on Sept 1, 2014 23:37:33 GMT -6
Still reading...but what a huge big pile of brilliant design decisions.
If I was up to the task of such a project, I'd like to think my choices would have been very similar.
So far, I see no reason to house-rule anything.
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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 2, 2014 7:10:02 GMT -6
Still reading...but what a huge big pile of brilliant design decisions. If I was up to the task of such a project, I'd like to think my choices would have been very similar. So far, I see no reason to house-rule anything. Thanks! Those are great things for an author to hear! I have a new blog post on the setting of the game here (though, it's probably one of the more boring Zylarthen posts).
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Post by Mike on Sept 2, 2014 8:09:06 GMT -6
Folks,
Do the Lulu books have glued or stapled bindings?
In my experience, small glued spines can't stand much referencing.
Thanks
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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 2, 2014 10:18:05 GMT -6
Sorry to say it, but glued, although a few members here might have the original stapled versions. They were stapled (which was more expensive) but then Lulu changed printers and the staple job suddenly went from superior to inferior. And, obviously, inferior + more expensive sort of sucks. The glued versions have grown on me, however, and they still seem to be intact after much reading and referencing. Admittedly, though, they haven't gone through the full gamut of being weighed down flat by coffee mugs, passed around from player to player, and so on. I would of course be interested in other people's opinions on this.
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Post by Mike on Sept 4, 2014 8:45:27 GMT -6
Thanks Oakes...pity about the lack of staples but I guess glued is better than nothing.
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Post by angelicdoctor on Sept 16, 2014 19:16:25 GMT -6
I've a copy of this excellent game. I am already making plans on meshing the magic system and the turn undead rules of Seven Voyages with that of MetAlpha and Gamma World, which is to say that it will be the only magic/turn undead system of the latter two.
On a different note, I am currently in the process of making my own wood box for it. Not cardboard or pressed board or that crap WotC sold the reprints in, but real actual wood with biscuit-joined corners. I was wondering if I were to get really good at it, might there be some here who would be interested in having a box like this for one's own hard copies of this game or even of the OD&D set?
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Post by Mike on Sept 17, 2014 8:40:00 GMT -6
Best Thief class ever. Just sayin'.
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Post by angelicdoctor on Sept 17, 2014 8:58:40 GMT -6
Best Thief class ever. Just sayin'. Agreed!
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Post by dizzysaxophone on Sept 20, 2014 2:22:03 GMT -6
I've a copy of this excellent game. I am already making plans on meshing the magic system and the turn undead rules of Seven Voyages with that of MetAlpha and Gamma World, which is to say that it will be the only magic/turn undead system of the latter two. On a different note, I am currently in the process of making my own wood box for it. Not cardboard or pressed board or that crap WotC sold the reprints in, but real actual wood with biscuit-joined corners. I was wondering if I were to get really good at it, might there be some here who would be interested in having a box like this for one's own hard copies of this game or even of the OD&D set? AD, if you happen to do so, you can count me in on at least one! (maybe even two or three)!
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Post by angelicdoctor on Sept 20, 2014 10:07:32 GMT -6
Excellent. Better get to work, then! Thanks, dizzy.
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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 20, 2014 17:31:03 GMT -6
Well, yeah, me too. Though, for obvious reasons, I wasn't sure it was my place to say it. As you may know I'm a pretty serious cigar smoker. I keep dice, figures, dominoes and coins (as well as much else) in cigar boxes. Before I publicly released the game, I made up a few sets of Zylarthen to send to friends. I was sure I could find a cigar box (or something similar at a craft store) that would fit just right. But it was annoying to find that nothing was really suitable. (And I looked pretty hard for a week.) If and when I make the step up from print-on-demand I would love to offer the booklets in an actual wooden box (as opposed to simply a wood-grain colored box). Though it sounds like what you have in mind would be pretty skill-intensive (on your part) and difficult to duplicate. Which is why I hesitated to ask in the first place.
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Post by Mike on Sept 21, 2014 5:09:36 GMT -6
Running my first game this Tuesday.
Any advice appreciated.
Does anyone have a character sheet?
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