Miniature Industry's influence on early D&D?

[havard]

Given the influence Chainmail had on D&D, I wonder how much the Miniature influence was able to influence D&D. For instance, to what degree were the fantasy races and monsters in Chainmail based on which miniatures were available at the time? We already know from things like the rust monster and bulette that if Gary & Co had a figure (or toy) for it, they would include it in the game.

Could specific figures and miniatures have determined both which creatures were available and also their overall appearance and traits?

-Havard

[derv]

Wasn't Lowry a miniature designer/destributor? This is who first published Chainmail under Guidon Games. I would say his inventory would have influenced some characterizations. But, clearly LotR was the inspiration for most of the Fantasy Supplement in Chainmail.

[Finarvyn]

Dec 7, 2013 14:14:43 GMT -6 havard said:

Could specific figures and miniatures have determined both which creatures were available and also their overall appearance and traits?

I think it was really the other way around -- D&D's influence caused the miniatures companies to change what they were making rather than the existant miniatures market changing D&D.

Back in the day, most of the miniatures I had seen were historical armies. We spent a lot of time playing with Roman legions and barbarian hordes and stuff like that. The "monsters" we could find were mostly things like plastic dinosaurs or plastic animals I bought from a zoo.

If we decided to put a dragon into the game it was because we wanted a dragon, not because we had any minis that looked remotely dragon-like. ("Okay guys, so this t-rex is actually a dragon. Rrrrar!")

[havard]

You are definitely right about D&D influencing the miniatures companies. However, what about during the years right before D&D came out?
Good point about people modifying miniatures though. Wasn't that how the Blackmoor group created the Dragon Gertie as well? Also, I understand that self-molding kits were more widely available back then(?).

Were there any fantasy or Tolkien based miniatures available before 1974?

-Havard

[derv]

Dec 8, 2013 10:11:53 GMT -6 havard said:

Were there any fantasy or Tolkien based miniatures available before 1974?

I was reading a blog post by James Ward where he suggested that minis for fantasy were not being produced until after 1974. He claims Ral Partha and Grenadier were both start ups in 1975 and Scruby didn't start making his fantasy figures in 30mm until 1975.

This has some cool pics of those original Scruby figures that are still being produced and sold- www.tabletoptalk.com/?s=scruby+fantasy+figures

[kesher]

Those Scruby figures are awesome, and actually pretty affordable...

[rsdean]

The Minifig (Miniature Figures) ME range was the first fantasy range I ran across. I'm not coming up with a date, but it was 1973 plus or minus one, as I recall.

www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Mythical_Earth

Definitely 1975 for Ral Partha...My first Partha miniatures were from the Metro Detroit Gamer's Michicon in the earlu summer of 1976.

[havard]

Thanks for the input guys! It is interesting that wargamers began using fantasy army units (in Chainmail)years before there were any miniatures available to represent them, except what gamers could make for themselves.



-Havard

[Finarvyn]

I know that I sometimes used the little wooden cubes from RISK as miniatures back in the day. They had all those neat colors (green for elves, red for dwarves, black for orcs, and so on). Fun, even if not as visual as today's options.

[Zenopus]

*bump*

This seems like a good thread for this:



This photo is from a 1973 preview in Airfix Magazine - months before D&D was first published - of one of the earliest fantasy miniature lines, Mythical Earth by Minifigs. Read more here:

1973 Preview of Mythical Earth Minifigs

Tolkien was still alive in August 1973 when this article was published! He passed away the following month. 8O

[rossik]

wow, Zenopus!
that was mindblowing!

[DungeonDevil]

Very cool discovery! I never did have the funds as a kid to afford the miniatures-aspect of the hobby, sadly. A friend of mine who introduced wargaming and FRPG to me (from Wisconsin, no less) had a house bursting at the seams with miniatures. I was positively green with envy. I expressed my admiration, and he merely shrugged it off nonchalantly -- as if owning thousands of minis was commonplace. He didn't want to part with any of them either. Clearly a severe case of mini-hoarding!

In passing, I wonder if there are any manufacturers who have purposely modelled their product line on the Monster Manual illos. Now, those I'd love to have!

[rsdean]

www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Catalogue.aspx?ScaleID=3&CategoryID=35&SubCategoryID=269

I have been searching eBay and HMGS flea markets for Minifg MEs for some time, to the point now where I probably have as many as I am going to need for my “game like it’s 1975/6” project.

However, the current owners of Minifigs have managed to put a few of these figures back into production, so the rest of you can do this with less effort.

Blog posts with some pictures:

sharpbrush.blogspot.com/search/label/Mythical%20Earth

(I am rather behind on blogging...)

[Malchor]

Dec 9, 2013 9:55:33 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I know that I sometimes used the little wooden cubes from RISK as miniatures back in the day. They had all those neat colors (green for elves, red for dwarves, black for orcs, and so on). Fun, even if not as visual as today's options.

I use plastic tiddlywinks in 6 colors. We sometimes use a dry erase on them.

They were so cheap for a bag ($4-6 for 250) that I hand out exrtas to people I play with.

[Malchor]

Minifogs was first, with an August 73 announmnt, and D&D released Jan 30, 1974 (based on the copywriter card).

GenCon in 74 also had a number of minis makers with previews, and Scruby as the official maker. So there had to be enough time to plan and sculpt their lines to take pre-orders at the con (assuming they did). They also all had to know D&D was going to be the theme and promoted heavily at GenCon that year to make all that effort worth their time. So there had to be some contact between the makers and Gary. Perhaps to entice them to exhibit, perhaps to build on the excitement and promote D&D to attendees, or to figure out who would be the official maker.

I will say it again, Gygax was a brilliant promoter. He would be an all star growth manager in tech today. With that lens, the events of 74 at GenCon male more sense. At least to me.

[rsdean]

I’ll have to go have a look at the early Dragon file to add some dates to these comments, so consider this to be preliminary.

Minifigs was definitely the first fantasy range. They carried them at the store where my copy of D&D was later purchased. Der Kriegspielers/Custom Cast and pre-merger Heritage had early ranges. Ral Partha came along ‘75 as well. D&D was already influencing back into the minis world by the time that Grenadier cast their first Wizzards and Warriors figures (in 1976? I have the resources to check that but not here). The first official D&D figures were Minifigs, of course, and I remember wondering why at the time, because Ral Partha’s sculpting was already well above Minifigs, and was about to get better as Tom Meier rapidly learned more.

[increment]

Dec 12, 2018 9:48:35 GMT -6 rsdean said:

Minifigs was definitely the first fantasy range.

From the zines and related evidence I can see, the Minifigs line and the Scruby line came out effectively simultaneously. If Minifigs was first, it was by a matter of weeks, which in the cycle of advertising and shipping for hobby businesses of this era is a margin too close to call. Releases were looser than like a Hollywood blockbuster which can simultaneously open in thousands of theaters one day.

[rsdean]

I don’t doubt you. I should not have been so emphatic. It would be more accurate to say that Minifigs was the first I had. Practically speaking, my connection to the broader gaming world in thosr days was through reading Wargamer’s Digest with the odd issue of Military Modelling(er?) now and then. I think Scruby was direct mail order only? The other early ranges I could buy locally, which influences my lerceptions of what was available.