|
Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 24, 2013 6:07:46 GMT -6
Now that Zenopus is revealing the contents of the Holmes Manuscript it's becoming clear that the vague elf dual-classing rules should have been the Greyhawk rules all along. What is the by-the-book method of resolving to-hit rolls and saving throws for dual- or multi-classed characters? What table does a 1st level fighting man / 2nd level magic-user roll on? My gut feeling is that it should be based on an average of the target roll for each class at the character's character level, i.e. 3rd level in this case. But that's not based on anything I've been able to find n the rules.
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Nov 24, 2013 14:08:23 GMT -6
I always thought it was "pick the best of the two". That's also the way I handle hit dice, although I understand that Gary made players roll hit dice for both classes and take the average.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 24, 2013 14:16:42 GMT -6
I think the elf entry in the monster section can be helpful in understanding the class. Therein the leaders roll 1d4 for fighter levels and 1d6 for wizard levels (allowing for combinations of 1/6 for example). These are special characters--heroes. Your normal elf is a 1st level fighter (not a 0-man) with 1+1 HD. Therefore the 'special' elves are at minimum 1/1 f/mu.
This is where the PC's start. My contention is that you take the best of whatever class. This is explicitly stated by gygax for saving throws (not just for elves, but for balrogs as well). So a 1st level hero elf rolls 1+1 HD, if the player sinks all the XP gains into the wizard class (the player is allowed to determine before each adventure which class will receive the xp), once the wizard gets 2HD and therefore exceeds the 1+1 starting HD, then new HP are rolled.
I think it's pretty cut and dry. Saving throws and hp are taken from the best of both classes. Max HD then is 5HD. Fairly balanced as if the elf goes heavy into the fighter classes early he can have 4 HD with a mere 8,000xp, but to get 4HD while focusing on the wizard tree would take 75,000xp! Additionally, focusing on the fighter class nets better saving throws sooner.
elf 1/2 f/mu 1+1 HD fighter saving throws except for save vs. spells, where the wizard's is better. 2 spells
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 24, 2013 15:29:18 GMT -6
I think the elf entry in the monster section can be helpful in understanding the class. Therein the leaders roll 1d4 for fighter levels and 1d6 for wizard levels (allowing for combinations of 1/6 for example). These are special characters--heroes. Your normal elf is a 1st level fighter (not a 0-man) with 1+1 HD. Therefore the 'special' elves are at minimum 1/1 f/mu. That's not quite right cooper because M&T also says that any 1s rolled are treated as 2s, and any 6 rolled is treated as 5: Therefore, fighter level is 2-4 and M-U level is 2-5, and the minimum level of any "above normal" elf would be 2/2.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 24, 2013 15:50:57 GMT -6
Good catch, but I think doesn't disprove my point. My impression is that for the purposes of elves of 50 or more needed to be lead by a "hero" who is at least 4th level (see: Men) and therefore must have at least 4 levels (and so 1/1 elves are out of the question as leaders of large groups).
This wouldn't be a factor for PC elves who begin as quite lesser heroes. Just as 1st level Veterans do not lead 50 men-at-arms. The pertinent information is that the fighter and wizard levels are randomized.
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 24, 2013 16:27:30 GMT -6
Good catch, but I think doesn't disprove my point. My impression is that for the purposes of elves of 50 or more needed to be lead by a "hero" who is at least 4th level (see: Men) and therefore must have at least 4 levels (and so 1/1 elves are out of the question as leaders of large groups). This wouldn't be a factor for PC elves who begin as quite lesser heroes. Just as 1st level Veterans do not lead 50 men-at-arms. The pertinent information is that the fighter and wizard levels are randomized. Quite so Cooper, I didn't intend to disprove your thesis. I only wanted to point out an incidental (but quite important, IMHO) inaccuracy which was that a 1/1 elf isn't classed as super normal. That qualification is only achieved with additional experience.
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 24, 2013 21:10:06 GMT -6
So, to clarify, a 2/2 fighting man/magic-user would use the 4th level fighting man to-hit tables, and whichever saving throw is more favourable (4th level fighting man or 4th level magic-user)? Sorry for being pedantic, but I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 24, 2013 21:23:00 GMT -6
No, he would use the 2nd level fighting man to-hit table and use the saving throws of a 2nd level fighter or a 2nd level mu or a mix of whichever was better. He would have 2 HD and 2 spells. He also would have accumulated 4,500xp (2000xp for the FM and 2,500xp for the mu).
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 24, 2013 22:41:35 GMT -6
Hmm, that would seem to suck. Who would choose to play such a multi-classed character in that case? He'd be half as effective as the party's single-class characters.
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 24, 2013 23:23:50 GMT -6
Hmm, that would seem to suck. Who would choose to play such a multi-classed character in that case? He'd be half as effective as the party's single-class characters. This depends on exactly which classes are involved and how much XP they require. If PCs in general required 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64k XP to level up (I know they don't, it's just a generalisation), then a PC could have reached 6th level in a single class with 64k XP, or 5th level in two classes for the same 64k XP. I don't think a 5/5 fighter/M-U would be half as effective as a 6th level fighter or 6th level M-U, just different. Another option I've seen for dual classed PCs is to roll HD independently for both classes, and use the greater total. I.e., supposing our 2/2 fighter/magic-user has 15 constitution, he would roll 2 HD for his fighter levels and add 2 for his constitution. Then he would also roll 1+1 HD for his M-U levels and add 1 for his constitution. Then he would take which ever total is higher and discard the other total. This makes it less likely that a dual-classed PC (with few HD) will get really low hit points, which helps a bit.
|
|
|
Post by cooper on Nov 25, 2013 0:19:19 GMT -6
Hmm, that would seem to suck. Who would choose to play such a multi-classed character in that case? He'd be half as effective as the party's single-class characters. Waysoftheearth is right that you would be 1 level behind not 1/2 the level. Furthermore, a 2/2 f/mu has better saving throws than a 3rd level fighter or a 5th level wizard. Needless to say he can also use magic swords and wizard items. Saving throws are arguably a better indicator of a characters ability to survive adversity than hit points, given the 'save or die' nature of 0d&d.
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 25, 2013 1:13:48 GMT -6
Ah, okay, running the numbers that seems to be more in line with the B/X method (which I know does work in practice) and the effect of using the best saving throw is a powerful balancing factor. Thanks, all. When creating higher-level characters of NPCs one should bear in mind, then, that the class levels of a dual-classed character should only be 1 or so behind general party level. Now, does this break down for triple-classed characters?
|
|
|
Post by talysman on Nov 25, 2013 2:02:15 GMT -6
A hypothetical "quadruple class" character (not generally possible) would be two levels behind, instead of one level, for the reason waysoftheearth described. So a triple class character would sometimes be one, sometimes two levels behind.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 30, 2015 18:30:03 GMT -6
Half elf fighter/magic user/cleric/thief? LOL not BtB but it would seem to work.
|
|