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Post by geoffrey on Nov 4, 2013 21:02:05 GMT -6
I love the map of Wilderland in The Hobbit. I have two questions about it:
1. Is there a large version (with the dimensions of, say, a Judges Guild Wilderlands map) available? Please note that I am interested only in the map as drawn by Tolkien. I am not interested in the map re-drawn by someone else.
2. How many miles is the map north to south, and how many miles east to west?
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Post by funkaoshi on Nov 4, 2013 22:35:53 GMT -6
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Post by cleverkobold on Nov 4, 2013 22:50:17 GMT -6
1. There are maps both of Middle Earth as a whole, and just the Wilderland for sale. They are both about 2' by 3' and printed on nice textured card stock; and are recreations of the maps presented in the books. I see them at comic book stores and similar establishments.
2. 2750 miles north to south, 4300 miles east to west; at least according to the Wilderland hex map from The One Ring RPG
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 4, 2013 23:23:12 GMT -6
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 4, 2013 23:40:50 GMT -6
2750 miles north to south, 4300 miles east to west; at least according to the Wilderland hex map from The One Ring RPG Wow. That seems...vast. Thorin and Company left Rivendell on June 21st and arrived at Lake-town at least three weeks before Durin's Day (when the last moon of autumn and the sun are in the sky together). Thus their arrival was on Dec. 1 at the latest. We're looking at about 5 month's time. Even accounting for the eagles flying them part of the way, I do not get the impression that they travelled that far that fast, especially considering the weeks spent in the elves' dungeon and the lollygagging at Beorn's house. I'd guess that the map's scale in The One Ring is at least twice as large as it should be. |
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Post by cleverkobold on Nov 5, 2013 1:34:34 GMT -6
2750 miles north to south, 4300 miles east to west; at least according to the Wilderland hex map from The One Ring RPG Wow. That seems...vast. Thorin and Company left Rivendell on June 21st and arrived at Lake-town at least three weeks before Durin's Day (when the last moon of autumn and the sun are in the sky together). Thus their arrival was on Dec. 1 at the latest. We're looking at about 5 month's time. Even accounting for the eagles flying them part of the way, I do not get the impression that they travelled that far that fast, especially considering the weeks spent in the elves' dungeon and the lollygagging at Beorn's house. I'd guess that the map's scale in The One Ring is at least twice as large as it should be. I made a mistake, I didn't realize that The One Ring map of Wilderland went from the Trollshaws to the eastern edge on the Iron Hills. 'Actual' Wilderland, from the eastern edge of the Misty Mountains to Erebor is only 2000 miles. My bad. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Nov 5, 2013 10:57:01 GMT -6
Mirkwood is approximately the same size as Great Britain.
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Post by kesher on Nov 6, 2013 13:24:01 GMT -6
Whoa. That's STILL vast.
This makes me want to check the scales in The One Ring...
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Post by Falconer on Nov 6, 2013 13:46:56 GMT -6
This may be of some assistance for the sake of scale. From Fonstad’s Atlas. It’s roughly 420 miles east to west, and about 535 miles north to south.
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 6, 2013 14:42:50 GMT -6
This may be of some assistance for the sake of scale. From Fonstad’s Atlas. It’s roughly 420 miles east to west, and about 535 miles north to south. Now that goes along with my intuition. Thanks a bunch for that, Falconer.  From that I can extrapolate for the entire Wilderland map found in The Hobbit. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 6, 2013 15:44:48 GMT -6
If you put together a chart of distances or travel times, maybe you'll post it. I keep meaning to make one (or search for one) so that I can be more accurate in my LotR campaigns. I like to use SPI's old "War of the Ring" map for hex travel, but can never quite decide how many days travel per hex. It's a great map.  |
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Post by kent on Nov 6, 2013 20:35:06 GMT -6
This may be of some assistance for the sake of scale. From Fonstad’s Atlas. It’s roughly 420 miles east to west, and about 535 miles north to south. Now that goes along with my intuition. Thanks a bunch for that, Falconer. From that I can extrapolate for the entire Wilderland map found in The Hobbit. My hex map here is precise with 40 mile hexes edge to edge. odd74.proboards.com/thread/8993/middle-earth-judges-guild-wilderlands Mirkwood is just over 400 miles north to south. |
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 6, 2013 21:22:16 GMT -6
Thank you for that, Kent. That gets rid of most of the ambiguity of the dimensions of Tolkien's Wilderland map. A quick calculation from your map indicates that Tolkien's Wilderland map is about 400 miles north to south and 535 miles east to west.
For comparison's sake, each Judges Guild Wilderlands map is 170 miles north to south and 260 miles east to west. To regard Tolkien's Wilderland map as exactly twice that of a JG Wilderlands map is close enough for government work. I like to imagine The Hobbit's map as sitting alongside the western edges of the maps of the Elphand Lands and Viridistan (even as the Blackmoor map sits directly north of Valon and the Valley of the Ancients), which would put the Iron Hills in the Elphand Lands. Perhaps the Iron Hills could be equated with the Nizir Hills. After all, "nizir" is the dwarven word for "iron". (Yes, I made that up.)
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Post by kent on Nov 6, 2013 22:08:12 GMT -6
I like to imagine The Hobbit's map as sitting alongside the western edges of the maps of the Elphand Lands and Viridistan (even as the Blackmoor map sits directly north of Valon and the Valley of the Ancients), which would put the Iron Hills in the Elphand Lands. Perhaps the Iron Hills could be equated with the Nizir Hills. After all, "nizir" is the dwarven word for "iron". (Yes, I made that up.) Bizarre and very interesting, I'll have to think about that when I get the JG maps out next time. When I was laboriously making the Middle-earth map I came to have the highest respect for Christopher Tolkien's skills, he must have studied cartography for a little while at least, and while there is some affinity with the Wilderlands maps, one advantage they have is the brilliant way that mountains become blockades, central to JRR's thinking about forced routes for adventure journeys. Who is responsible for the Hobbit Wilderness map I wonder? |
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 6, 2013 22:45:04 GMT -6
Who is responsible for the Hobbit Wilderness map I wonder? J. R. R. Tolkien himself drew both of the maps in The Hobbit. |
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Post by Falconer on Nov 6, 2013 23:33:35 GMT -6
Who is responsible for the Hobbit Wilderness map I wonder? JRRT himself (confirmed by The Art of The Hobbit). One thing I would like to note is that there is no scale on the Wilderland Map, and Tolkien in writing The Hobbit didn’t sit down and work out a thorough timetable of the journey (as he did in writing The Lord of the Rings). Of course, the locales from the Wilderland Map were placed on the The Lord of the Rings Map, which DOES have a scale. But afterwards, in 1960, Tolkien DID try to work out a timetable for The Hobbit, and concluded that “Mirkwood is too small on the map it must be 300 miles across” — that is, it is too small on the LR Map, by half! Which is what Fonstad also concluded. Also, the Iron Hills IMO have to be MUCH closer to Erebor than they appear on the LR Map, in order for Dain’s army to arrive in a matter of days. I actually consider those squiggles just east of the Lonely Mountain on the Wilderland Map to be the Iron Hills, and the arrow simply shows that they continue to the east (and the implied city or main settlement is just off the map). |
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Post by kent on Nov 6, 2013 23:35:57 GMT -6
Who is responsible for the Hobbit Wilderness map I wonder? J. R. R. Tolkien himself drew both of the maps in The Hobbit. What remarkable talent. Why did he then feel so reliant on his son for the maps of Middle-earth, which is my impression from his letters. It seems he could easily have created them himself. |
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Post by kent on Nov 6, 2013 23:38:28 GMT -6
Who is responsible for the Hobbit Wilderness map I wonder? Also, the Iron Hills IMO have to be MUCH closer to Erebor than they appear on the LR Map, in order for Dain’s army to arrive in a matter of days. I actually consider those squiggles just east of the Lonely Mountain on the Wilderland Map to be the Iron Hills, and the arrow simply shows that they continue to the east (and the implied city or main settlement is just off the map). This seems something else interesting to dust off the books and maps for. |
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 7, 2013 14:57:49 GMT -6
One thing I would like to note is that there is no scale on the Wilderland Map, and Tolkien in writing The Hobbit didn’t sit down and work out a thorough timetable of the journey (as he did in writing The Lord of the Rings). Of course, the locales from the Wilderland Map were placed on the The Lord of the Rings Map, which DOES have a scale. But afterwards, in 1960, Tolkien DID try to work out a timetable for The Hobbit, and concluded that “Mirkwood is too small on the map it must be 300 miles across” — that is, it is too small on the LR Map, by half! Which is what Fonstad also concluded. Also, the Iron Hills IMO have to be MUCH closer to Erebor than they appear on the LR Map, in order for Dain’s army to arrive in a matter of days. I actually consider those squiggles just east of the Lonely Mountain on the Wilderland Map to be the Iron Hills, and the arrow simply shows that they continue to the east (and the implied city or main settlement is just off the map). Great points. 1. You are certainly right that the Wilderland map has no scale on it, and that I am engaged in a certain amount of "ret-conning". My gut instinct was that the Wilderland map was about as large as 4 Judges Guild Wilderlands maps, and my gut instinct looks to be close enough to accurate for a D&D campaign. 2. I am going to adopt your suggestion about the Iron Hills. Brilliant. |
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Post by Falconer on Nov 7, 2013 16:01:32 GMT -6
My point is the Elf-path can be anywhere from 175 to 300 miles long and still be “canonical”. |
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From that I can extrapolate for the entire Wilderland map found in The Hobbit.
