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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 8:12:43 GMT -6
My game has come to a point where some resolution of mass combat is required. I'm wanting to resolve it with DD itself with a minimum of extra rulings (maybe just something like Command Control from OD&D Vol III).
Some figures - approx 150-200 footmen each side, 50% Polearms, one side has a couple of L4 Magic Users, the other has a L6 Cleric. The possibility of armoured horse reinforcements for one side.
How would you run it. Do you have any tips for me ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 9:18:12 GMT -6
Hello Relic. I actually wrote a set of abstract mass combat rules for DD, but we made an editorial decision not to include them because our inspirational material didn't, either.
Without going into boring detail I basically just had each stick of figures treated like an individual, This meant hits, misses, kills, and so on were handled as if it was the action of an individual but applied to the whole unit. This enable me to use the Combat Matrices and individual movement rates. The only real complication, it was a minor one, was movement and unit actions (pike, charge, etc.).
That's the general way the rules went. This should be enough to get you going. I would say that if you intend to have mass battles a major part of your campaign, there are a few ways you can go.
Chainmail is the old reliable. It's been around since before D&D and meshes well with the game.
Two newer but similar systems are "Delta Book of War" and "By This Axe." They are both very good systems that, again, mesh well with the game.
If you have a copy of Mentzer's D&D Companion Rules (the "C" in BECMI) you can also use the very abstract battle resolution rules included.
It all depends upon how you want to go.
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Post by mgtremaine on Oct 2, 2013 10:18:15 GMT -6
If you want to skip the mass combat you could probably break the battle down into just the command units with some flunkies. Assuming the Players are on one side. Resolve that combat normally and the winner takes all. Casualties rates could be based on how damaged the winners and losers end up.
-Mike
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Post by talysman on Oct 2, 2013 12:01:45 GMT -6
You could also think of the troops as not being individuals, but as bonuses to the fighting capability of the troop leader. In your example, at the very least, you would be breaking the army into a minimum of three groups: 75 to 100 footmen, 75 to 100 footmen with polearms, and cavalry. Perhaps more; maybe there could be 2-3 divisions of each type of foot, with each division having 25 to 50 troops? Use the leader of each division as the actual combatant (so you have about 12 combatants, instead of hundreds;) if one leader attacks another, give a +1 on the attacks of the larger group, or +2 if that division is at least twice as big.
Crude, but it helps resolve the overall combat simply.
EDIT: Forgot to added another, simpler way, for if you want to resolve the mass battle with just a couple rolls and focus on the individual combats of the PCs. Use the reaction roll to determine which way the battle as a whole turns: Good reaction means the PC side is winning, Bad reaction means it's losing. Use this roll at the end of every five rounds the PCs are still fighting, to determine how the tide of battle shifts around them. You could use the lower of the two d6s as casualties, adding 5 for the losing side, and doubling casualties for the loser on a Very Good or Very Bad result. Again, if the total number of one side is larger than the other, add or subtract 1 point, or 2 points if one side is twice the size of the other. Also, if one side is twice the size of the other, double casualties for the smaller side.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 2, 2013 18:41:42 GMT -6
@relic, that sounds like great fun! The answer depends, I think, on how abstract you want to go. If you want to resolve the whole battle with just a few rolls, then talysman's suggested use of morale checks is a fantastic way to go. If you want to play out something like a tabletop battle, then (as suggested above) there's Chaimail, Book of War, and a number of other options recommended in DD (I haven't seen By This Ax myself, but I'd go with Cameron's recommendation for sure). FWIW -- I've always hoped that eventually there would be a mass battles supplement for DD, and I still believe that eventually there will be. Alternatively, if you want to run the whole affair with nothing but the combat procedures present in DD itself, then one option would be to scale everything (perhaps 1:10 or similar?) and run combat as usual. Another option might be to use a simplification of the multiple attacks combat resolution (one attack per HD as a 1 HD man/monster). This is not given in the text of DD, but you can reasonably accurately combine attack & damage rolls into a single d6 roll. In this way "normals" would hit/kill other normals on a d6 roll of 5-6. Heroes would roll 4 dice in attack, and could sustain 4 such hits before being killed. And so on. Magic-user and cleric spells could be used pretty much as per normal, where each dice of damage equals one "hit/kill". The most important thing to bear in mind is that strategic positioning and morale are the critical factors in any massed battle -- I'd use morale checks liberally Let us know how it goes!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 19:28:35 GMT -6
I'd use morale checks liberally An important point. It isn't just the size of the dog in the fight, but also the size of the fight in the dog.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 1:07:19 GMT -6
Sound suggestions and advice as always, thank you. I will try different methods depending on the PCs involvement, the Reaction rolls idea seems great for a 'fog of war' feel but I'd like the players to get a chance to command as well so I could switch to a less abstract wargame solution.
I suppose a very abstract solution would be using the Reaction Table and have the PCs roll Saving Throws (fail = HP loss) if their side is losing. Another possibility - using the OD&D toolset would be to adapt the Turn Undead table to show rout/capture/kill.
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Koren n'Rhys
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Oct 3, 2013 7:18:46 GMT -6
If you want to play out something like a tabletop battle, then (as suggested above) there's Chaimail, Book of War, and a number of other options recommended in DD (I haven't seen By This Ax myself, but I'd go with Cameron's recommendation for sure). FWIW -- I've always hoped that eventually there would be a mass battles supplement for DD, and I still believe that eventually there will be. I wanted to focus on this bit for a second and ask a question or two... Is there a OGL version of Chainmail yet, that could be tweaked for a DD version? I haven't needed any mass combat rules myself, but it seems like with the various OD&D clones that someone would have worked this up by now. And as an alternative, what about working with Delta on an alternate version of BoW specifically compatible with DD? Actually, did I at some point read that maybe he was doing just that? Or is that just my poor memory rearing it's ugly head?
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Post by talysman on Oct 3, 2013 10:42:37 GMT -6
I suppose a very abstract solution would be using the Reaction Table and have the PCs roll Saving Throws (fail = HP loss) if their side is losing. Another possibility - using the OD&D toolset would be to adapt the Turn Undead table to show rout/capture/kill. Technically, they're the same thing. Roll 2d6, add double the difference between the cleric's hit dice and the undead hit dice, and a Good or better reaction means the undead are turned. The only difference is that a large enough distance between hit dice means bypassing the reaction roll. I'm not sure how you would use that for mass combat. Are you thinking of autoturn = capture, auto destroy = kill all but a few, with difference in hit die ratings of each army being the test?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 11:45:26 GMT -6
I suppose a very abstract solution would be using the Reaction Table and have the PCs roll Saving Throws (fail = HP loss) if their side is losing. Another possibility - using the OD&D toolset would be to adapt the Turn Undead table to show rout/capture/kill. Technically, they're the same thing. Roll 2d6, add double the difference between the cleric's hit dice and the undead hit dice, and a Good or better reaction means the undead are turned. The only difference is that a large enough distance between hit dice means bypassing the reaction roll. I'm not sure how you would use that for mass combat. Are you thinking of autoturn = capture, auto destroy = kill all but a few, with difference in hit die ratings of each army being the test? Yes, but it's only an idea as it's too abstract for my liking. I remember I tried a similar thing with Chainmail's Spell Complexity table sometime last century.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 3, 2013 19:14:58 GMT -6
Is there a OGL version of Chainmail yet, that could be tweaked for a DD version? I haven't needed any mass combat rules myself, but it seems like with the various OD&D clones that someone would have worked this up by now. I don't believe so. As far as I'm aware Chainmail is wholly the intellectual property of its license holder and there is no "OGL equivalent" that covers it. And as an alternative, what about working with Delta on an alternate version of BoW specifically compatible with DD? Actually, did I at some point read that maybe he was doing just that? I wanted to do exactly that. I have written a number of emails to Delta but never received a reply I'm presuming that's because I have an old email address... I chase him some more after the hard back edition is out.
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