Level limits "Fixed"

[bycrom]

By Crom! Here is a new club of mine own with which to beat this dead horse

Base Experience Points (XP): Characters require the following base xp to advance to second level. Fighter: 2000, Cleric & Thief: 1500, Magic-User: 2500. The XP requirement doubles (2x) for each level thereafter until the maximum Hit Dice is reached for the characters race. These maximum HD are: Human: 9, Dwarf: 6, Elf: 5, Halfling: 4. After the maximum Hit Dice is reached, the XP requirement to gain a new level is a flat amount - Fighter: 128,000; Cleric & Thief: 96,000, Magic-User: 160,000.

Hit Dice(HD)and Hit Points (HP): Roll hit points according to the character class you chose. Fighters roll 1d8, Clerics & Thieves roll 1d6 and Magic-Users roll 1d4. An additional hit die of the same type is gained each time the character gains a level until the character reaches his race's maximum Hit Dice. Roll all the hit dice your character has upon gaining a level to find your new hit-point total. If the total of the dice roll is higher than your previous HP (adjusted by the Constitution modifier per die) this is your new HP total. Otherwise, add 1 to you previous HP total. After reaching the racial maximum Hit Dice, HP gained for each level thereafter is a flat bonus to your current total (Constitution modifiers no longer apply): Fighter +3, Cleric & Thief: +2, Magic-User: +1

I would be interested in hearing the community's take, thanks!

[18 Spears]

What is you'uns tryin to fix? Rules seem okay but not knowing your aim makes it hard to tell ya if its fixed.

[makofan]

#2 is what I currently do

#1, it costs 128,000 xp to go from Level 8 to level 9 as a fighter, then 100,000 thereafter. Is that what you want?

[makofan]

What I think he is trying to do is to let dwarves advance from level 6 to level 7, but at a cost of 100,00 xp, not 32,000 xp like for humans

[makofan]

What I do is tell my players that a good use of a Wish is to wish that your level limit would increase by 1 - wishes are relatively common in OD&D

[Lord Cias]

I do something similar by limiting hit dice but allowing unlimited level advancement. But I use an "OD&D-ish" hit die progression, humans have unlimited hit dice, and demi-humans have different exp requirements (usually a bit higher) for level advancement than for the normal "human" adventuring classes.

[Porphyre]

Putting a level to the Hit Dices without limiting the level is the way snorri did it in Epées & Sorcelleries

[bycrom]

by Crom! Additional clarification is required here: No hard level limits for any race or allowed class, though most likely will occur of it's own as a practical matter in play. Only maximum Hit Dice (then qualifying for new XP requirement and flat hp bonus). My rules stop with 6th level spells (like the 3LBB's) as well to sidestep the high level Wizard = demi-god complex issue and fighter-mage uberkillers.

[bycrom]

Aug 28, 2013 9:12:43 GMT -6 makofan said:

#2 is what I currently do

#1, it costs 128,000 xp to go from Level 8 to level 9 as a fighter, then 100,000 thereafter. Is that what you want?

ByCrom! Thanks for the catch Makofan. Editing OP so Fighter = 128,000 Cleric/Thief= 96,000 Mage = 160,000. Thoughts/comments?

[makofan]

I do like this - demi-humans go up, just slower

[Lord Cias]

Not bad at all. Personally I'd round up the exp. requirements for levels beyond hit dice. For example, Fighters 150,000, Clerics & Thieves 100,000, and Magic-users 200,000. But I like what you've done here. Simple, effective, and it seems well balanced.

[scottenkainen]

Something I've done before and plan to use in my next campaign:

Instead of level limits, demi-humans suffer an xp penalty, as detailed below.
Dwarves can be Clerics (-10%), Fighters (-5%), Thieves, or Assassins (-5%).
Elves can be Druids (-15%), Fighters (-10%), Magic-Users, Thieves, or Assassins (-5%).
Gnomes can be Druids (-15%), Fighters (-10%), Illusionists (-10%), Thieves, or Assassins (-10%).
Half-Elves can be Clerics (-15%), Druids, Fighters (-10%), Rangers (-10%), Magic-Users (-10%), Illusionists (-20%), Thieves, or Assassins.
Half-Orcs can be Clerics (-15%), Fighters, Magic-Users (-20%), Thieves (-5%), or Assassins.
Halflings can be Druids (-15%), Fighters (-10%), Magic-Users (-20%), or Thieves.

[Porphyre]

The B/X and BECMI dwarf is just a fighetr with a 10% XP penalty

[cleverkobold]

Aug 28, 2013 9:21:59 GMT -6 makofan said:

What I do is tell my players that a good use of a Wish is to wish that your level limit would increase by 1 - wishes are relatively common in OD&D

This is so obvious but I never would have thought of it. I will definitely allow players to do this in the future.

[mgtremaine]

Aug 31, 2013 13:21:21 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

Aug 28, 2013 9:21:59 GMT -6 makofan said:

What I do is tell my players that a good use of a Wish is to wish that your level limit would increase by 1 - wishes are relatively common in OD&D

This is so obvious but I never would have thought of it. I will definitely allow players to do this in the future.

That's the way we played also.

-Mike

[Porphyre]

Aug 31, 2013 13:21:21 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

Aug 28, 2013 9:21:59 GMT -6 makofan said:

What I do is tell my players that a good use of a Wish is to wish that your level limit would increase by 1 - wishes are relatively common in OD&D

This is so obvious but I never would have thought of it. I will definitely allow players to do this in the future.

I probably wouldn't.
Because, in  my vision, the reason for level limits -in universe- is because semi-humans don't "wish" to go further: yes, of course, long lived elves could go beyond 8th level, but that is so frivolous, so ... human!

"Yes of course, I dabbled a little in magic in my Young years. Also a bit of swordsmanship. Well, I was 200 then : let's say I was young and reckless. But I've matured now, I  know what's really worth in life. Now if you woud excuse me, I'm going back to Watch the stars..."

[Zulgyan]

By CROM! Kill all demi-humans. That wil fix level limits for'ya.

[Red Baron]

I don't think level caps go far enough. Moldvay Basic got something right with only providing rules for the first three levels.

I'd limit fighting men to "heroes" at 4th level, and magic users to "magicians" at 6th level. The best you can be is Fafhrd or Mazirian.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2013 9:03:52 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

The B/X and BECMI dwarf is just a fighetr with a 10% XP penalty

The Dwarf's 10% penalty is also in the Dalluhm playtest version. Not sure if Moldvay knew that or not.

[oakesspalding]

Good and workable ideas. In my rediscovery of OD&D I've always liked the absolute level limits imposed. I like the way things are FLIPPED-okay, you're immortal or at least live longer than your average human, and you're clearly better than the average human in a number of ways, but the price you pay is that you just don't have as much long-term potential. Only player-character humans can be true super heroes. Admittedly, some of that is based on my own DM'ing and playing experience where no one made it to more than 5th or 6th level anyway. And it just seems to become almost a different game soon after. So the limits never struck me as that onerous. On a practical level it seemed like one way for a real world player that wasn't necessarily planning on coming to your house every Wednesday night for the next five years to add some fun and diversity to the game.

[jacar]

I could see non-humans tap out in hit points at the level and then progress gaining +1 +2 or +3 depending on the class for the rest of the levels. I think I would impose the 10% exp penalty as well if I were to do this.

[sepulchre]

redbaron wrote:

don't think level caps go far enough. Moldvay Basic got something right with only providing rules for the first three levels.

I'd limit fighting men to "heroes" at 4th level, and magic users to "magicians" at 6th level. The best you can be is Fafhrd or Mazirian.

This.

I think looking to hero types in literature is a good way to set the boundaries of the dice so that one can get on with the game and not be preoccupied with advancement. Within these kind of limits, keep demi-humans as presented in Chainmail (Hf/Hf- could homebrew wood elves: defend:light foot & attack:armored foot), but tweak for particular demi-human personalities' e.g. particular elven personalities (legolas) gaining an additional +1 on the dice (leader designation), and the greatest of elven warriors (Haldir as conceived by Peter Jackson) gaining an additional +2 on the dice (commander designation), leaving hero designations for men, but allow access to the lvl. title of magician. Elven wizards, like an elven queen, would be magicians.

[Red Baron]

Jan 24, 2014 16:12:51 GMT -6 sepulchre said:

redbaron wrote:

don't think level caps go far enough. Moldvay Basic got something right with only providing rules for the first three levels.

I'd limit fighting men to "heroes" at 4th level, and magic users to "magicians" at 6th level. The best you can be is Fafhrd or Mazirian.

This.

I think looking to hero types in literature is a good way to set the boundaries of the dice so that one can get on with the game and not be preoccupied with advancement. Within these kind of limits, keep demi-humans as presented in Chainmail, but tweak for particular demi-human personalities' e.g. particular elven personalities (legolas) gaining an additional +1 on the dice (leader designation), and the greatest of elven warriors (Haldir as conceived by Peter Jackson) gaining an additional +2 on the dice (commander designation), leaving hero designations for men, but allow access to the lvl. title of magician. Elven wizards, like an elven queen, would be magicians.

I think we can learn a lot about vancian magic from the level names.

Mazirian the Magician, who can fit six spells in his brain. A magician is a sixth level magic user. 1 spell per level, capped at 6th level sounds about right for wizardly advancement.

Phandaal (and sauron) are necromancers - 10th level magic users. Thus 10th level is the cap for npc magic users.

Limiting Fighting men to 4th level, I would give them some of the chainmail advantages a hero is given, based on Simon's post here.

[kenmeister]

For an OD&D plus supplements game, I've tossed around the idea of keeping level limits, but when a demi-human reaches one, now they start over in another class they are eligible to play. For instance a halfling hits level 4, then starts over at bard 1 and upon reaching bard 5, can now mix fighter and bard abilities freely. That works great for single-classed demi-humans and provided the lower level limit classes are picked first, not sure how to work it for multi-classers or if the higher level limit classes are picked first.

[Deleted]

They don't have to be fixed. They aren't broken.

[Finarvyn]

Jan 25, 2014 21:01:08 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

They don't have to be fixed. They aren't broken.

This is my view as well, but it all comes down to the scale of your game. If you run a game that caps out at level 20 then demihumans are at a severe disadvantage.

Jan 22, 2014 22:13:47 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

I don't think level caps go far enough. Moldvay Basic got something right with only providing rules for the first three levels.

I'd limit fighting men to "heroes" at 4th level, and magic users to "magicians" at 6th level. The best you can be is Fafhrd or Mazirian.

I like the sentiment, but it’s a bit too severe for me. In my campaign my rule of thumb is:
* 4th level = hero = member of a party worthy of a series of books.
* 8th level = super hero = lone figure worthy of a series of books.
* 12th level = mythic = that one nemesis who tries to rule the world (e.g. Sauron)

As such I’d give Conan 8th level status, Fafhrd & Grey Mouser perhaps 6th level each, Legolas and Gimli and Boromir closer to 4th level (Gandalf and Aragorn are higher level NPCs and not “party members”).

In my campaign, most characters end up retiring sometime around 8th-10th level.

For a scale such as the one I listed above, I think that level limits as given in Men & Magic work out just fine!

[Deleted]

I agree with Finarvyn that level limits are based on the goals of campaign world and thus belong with the setting material rather than the main rulebook.