|
Post by calithena on Aug 21, 2013 10:23:47 GMT -6
So one thing that Chainmail/OD&D and WFB/WFRP and some others help us do is move back and forth between roleplaying style combat and small to medium unit miniatures battles.
I am wondering if there are similar rules interfaces that would help you move back and forth between the Chainmail/WFB scale and the hex and counter armies type scale that allows large armies and countries to battle. (I'm thinking here that your typical 2-3 counters on a side hex battle is more or less like a large fantasy minis battle).
This is one of the missing links in my 'one game to rule them all' system and while it's probably not too hard to fill I'm wondering if other games or people on this board have thought about this and have any suggestions for how they might handle them.
|
|
|
Post by crusssdaddy on Aug 21, 2013 17:21:24 GMT -6
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 22:36:22 GMT -6
I'm not aware of established interfaces for this sort of thing. It's definitely something I've seen discussed before, though most often in the context of historical wargaming. For example EiA Linked to Napleon's Battles Miniatures WargamesIt would seem appropriate to simply employ a classic hex and counter medieval fantasy board wargame for the purpose. Divine Right comes to mind, but I am not personally familiar with it and suspect the unit scale may not be appropriate for Chainmail/WFB conversion. Another possibility would be Demonlord, which has the added benefit of being freely available. Each Demonlord unit counter represents one important character (hero) or about 500 troops (about 25 figures at 20:1 scale). That seems like it could work for Chainmail. One could always work backwards from Chainmail, with some guidance toward designing one's own classic board wargame. Actually, maybe I'll try that someday.
|
|
|
Post by calithena on Aug 22, 2013 7:32:02 GMT -6
This is exactly what I'm interested in and there are some good starts there.
Divine Right is definitely on my mind here. I'm considering a system where if heros (PCs, basically) are involved in hex and counter battles they can break out into a miniatures battle the resolution of which either resolves or has a major effect on the resolution of the hex and counter battle.
The Demonlord scale seems about right too, and I remember that game being pretty fun back in the day. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by crusssdaddy on Aug 22, 2013 8:04:27 GMT -6
Demonlord is a great game. I've been working on and off at adapting it to Carcosa.
|
|
skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
|
Post by skars on Aug 22, 2013 14:37:51 GMT -6
Mighty Empires was the WFB campaign game you are looking for.
|
|
|
Post by crusssdaddy on Aug 22, 2013 17:14:10 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by drskull on Aug 26, 2013 14:20:49 GMT -6
In the old days, I played a lot of Chivalry and Sorcery. In one of the supplements, there was a quick battle system where one could add up the point value for two armies, roll a few dice and determine the outcome a battle or series of battles between the two sides. This was in addition to a miniatures battle system. There was also a set of rules for conducting a season's worth of Viking raids in a few die rolls.
The systems didn't make it easy on the PC's for being PC's. You could end up dead from a single die roll. Nevertheless, it was a useful means of conducting large scale battles when you didn't want to set up the miniature armies. I seem to recall it gave you percentages of losses--broken down by dead and various degrees of wounded, and other details on plunder and so forth.
|
|
|
Post by tetramorph on May 26, 2015 18:14:27 GMT -6
@droll, I am raising this thread to life again because I am interested in this interface very much as well for my own campaign/s.
Did you ever get a chance to design or start designing something, @droll?
I hope so!
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on May 27, 2015 4:32:21 GMT -6
I'm not sure at all if this is what you have in mind, but back in the day my group played an old SPI wargame system called PRESTAGS (Pre-Seventeenth Century Tactical Game System). It was a 5-game system which ran from the really ancient times to roughly the rennaissance. All games used compatible rules, but each had a few era-specific ones. * Chariot (Biblical era) * Spartan (Greek era) * Legion (Roman era) * Viking (Viking era) * Yeoman (with primative guns)
I found that the SPI game Sorcerer was cool in that it had magic and a few mythical monsters and seemed somewhat compatible with PRESTAGS. (Similar attack and defend numbers, and so on.)
We fought some battles with Chainmail and others using SPI wargames. Is that at all the "interface" you have in mind?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 8:33:09 GMT -6
@droll, I am raising this thread to life again because I am interested in this interface very much as well for my own campaign/s. Did you ever get a chance to design or start designing something, @droll? I hope so! No activity to report, sorry.
|
|
|
Post by tetramorph on May 27, 2015 11:07:31 GMT -6
@droll, that's cool.
I noticed all the links in your first post have gone dead.
Do you have any other interesting or related links to share so that I could get to work on this as a project?
If not, cool.
Thanks for the help.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 11:12:51 GMT -6
All of the links in my first post are working for me, except for the last one. That was a link to an online version of The Complete Wargames Handbook by Jim Dunnigan. The link on Dunnigan's site has not been updated.
|
|
|
Post by tetramorph on May 27, 2015 11:24:15 GMT -6
Okay, they are good for me now, too. Thanks
|
|
skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
|
Post by skars on May 27, 2015 12:09:36 GMT -6
The biggest issue to contend with when trying to translate from skirmish->mass combat with wargames rules is actually handling the characters or heroes. What happens when they are stacked with 10,000 men-at-arms and the unit is destroyed? I would think the Men of Iron series of games by Richard Berg might work well along with chainmail/OD&D. Here is the rulebook from the most recent volume: www.gmtgames.com/bloodandroses/B&R_Rules_Final_Lo-Res.pdf
|
|
|
Post by chicagowiz on May 27, 2015 12:24:26 GMT -6
With regards to the original post by calithena, I suspect a more abstract game at a larger scale, coupled with a Tony Bath-style campaign might do the trick. Something like HOTT which fairly abstracts out to a greater degree and allows for a more strategic battle, especially when you port over something like Big Army DBA to HOTT style games. The biggest issue to contend with when trying to translate from skirmish->mass combat with wargames rules is actually handling the characters or heroes. What happens when they are stacked with 10,000 men-at-arms and the unit is destroyed? Unless they are name level, I would say give them a saving throw and whip up your own "after combat results" table, where death is a possibility. If at name level, games like HOTT usually have some sort of "Hero" and "Wizard" level element that can be used. At that point, they stand with the results. If they die, that is the possible outcome of war.
|
|
|
Post by chicagowiz on May 27, 2015 12:26:14 GMT -6
BTW, skars, if you go seek out Delta's OD&D Hotspot blog and do some digging, you'll find a post where he goes through the math of why less than name-level characters don't really impact a mass combat battle like the movies would have you think. My Fellowship rules that expand his Book of War mass combat game took that to heart where a PC Party can become a figure in his game, but unless they are powerful enough to really make a difference, then they take their chances, and some serious ones at that.
|
|
skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
|
Post by skars on May 27, 2015 13:20:26 GMT -6
BTW, skars, if you go seek out Delta's OD&D Hotspot blog and do some digging, you'll find a post where he goes through the math of why less than name-level characters don't really impact a mass combat battle like the movies would have you think. My Fellowship rules that expand his Book of War mass combat game took that to heart where a PC Party can become a figure in his game, but unless they are powerful enough to really make a difference, then they take their chances, and some serious ones at that. Thanks for the tip, but I have wargamed long enough to understand the theatrics around heroes in combat portrayed in fiction and film. I agree, unless they are commanding a unit and of named character status, they should have little if any impact on the combat results. Something like HOTT or DBA is most definitely abstracted compared to chainmail and what I was really suggesting you hit on the head with the previous post about "what happens to your character when their unit is impacted in mass combat" table much like a carousing table for in between adventures. Games like Necromunda provide a pretty good start as to what happens when a character "goes out of action" - it ranges from getting captured to being killed outright. But, Men of Iron is specifically geared toward the type of equipment and tactics focused on with CM/OD&D and instead of abstracting it to enhanced rock/paper/scissors with DBA, why not bring in the gorgeous maps and counters from Berg's game along with the more detailed rules that fit the theme?
|
|
|
Post by Otto Harkaman on May 27, 2015 16:41:06 GMT -6
I think my dream was always to merge SPI's War of the Ring with SPI's PRESTAGS.
|
|
|
Post by tetramorph on May 27, 2015 17:01:46 GMT -6
I love Delta's Book of War and am currently using my own "rules lite" variation for a HX crawl I am running in Planet Eris.
It moves from one to one scale to 10 (normals) to one scale. Three D&D rounds per mass-combat turn. And a d6 roll determines hit. It is elegant and I am growing to like it very much.
I wonder what would happen to move it to the next lvl, a lvl of HX and counter? What if we moved it to a 30 to 1 scale? What if one turn was ten D&D combat rounds? What would that look like? How would that change it, again, at that level of scale?
|
|
|
Post by jmccann on May 27, 2015 22:35:51 GMT -6
I don't know how I missed this thread the 1st time around. This is a subject I am very interested in. I have been noodling around ideas for years on how to do this but it has never come to anything. I think it is my design holy grail to have a campaign with character level roleplaying, skirmishes and larger minis battles, all tied into a multiplayer strategic game framework. If I ever get the Middelsae campaign going (in the inactive PBP section) it will be something like this.
|
|
|
Post by chicagowiz on May 30, 2015 20:25:48 GMT -6
But, Men of Iron is specifically geared toward the type of equipment and tactics focused on with CM/OD&D and instead of abstracting it to enhanced rock/paper/scissors with DBA, why not bring in the gorgeous maps and counters from Berg's game along with the more detailed rules that fit the theme? I'm not familiar with that game. I'm not sure I want to! Lord knows I've got my hands full with painting minis to play HOTT and BOW as part of my campaign.
|
|
|
Post by jmccann on May 30, 2015 21:18:32 GMT -6
I love Delta's Book of War and am currently using my own "rules lite" variation for a HX crawl I am running in Planet Eris. It moves from one to one scale to 10 (normals) to one scale. Three D&D rounds per mass-combat turn. And a d6 roll determines hit. It is elegant and I am growing to like it very much. I wonder what would happen to move it to the next lvl, a lvl of HX and counter? What if we moved it to a 30 to 1 scale? What if one turn was ten D&D combat rounds? What would that look like? How would that change it, again, at that level of scale? I think there is one more level of interesting minis battles before going to the hex sheet. What is the largest number of figures you want to field? What size battle are you interested in gaming w/ minis?
|
|
|
Post by Red Baron on May 30, 2015 22:52:16 GMT -6
move back and forth between roleplaying style combat and small to medium unit miniatures battles. That's what the judge is there to determine.
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on May 31, 2015 5:49:55 GMT -6
I think my dream was always to merge SPI's War of the Ring with SPI's PRESTAGS. Interesting. I'e blended Sorceror with PRESTAGS and Swords and Sorcery with PRESTAGS, but never thought to mix in War of the Ring. We need a seperate PRESTAGS thread.
|
|
|
Post by Otto Harkaman on May 31, 2015 7:30:37 GMT -6
I think my dream was always to merge SPI's War of the Ring with SPI's PRESTAGS. Interesting. I'e blended Sorceror with PRESTAGS and Swords and Sorcery with PRESTAGS, but never thought to mix in War of the Ring. We need a seperate PRESTAGS thread. OH! I am all for that! A lot of us seem to have played or are interested in PRESTAGS.
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on May 31, 2015 9:55:41 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by jmccann on May 31, 2015 13:14:29 GMT -6
Interesting. I'e blended ... Swords and Sorcery with PRESTAGS, but never thought to mix in War of the Ring. We need a seperate PRESTAGS thread. Finarvyn, I'd like to hear about the S&S PRESTAGS variant.
|
|
|
Post by tetramorph on May 31, 2015 13:22:57 GMT -6
I think there is one more level of interesting minis battles before going to the hex sheet. What is the largest number of figures you want to field? What size battle are you interested in gaming w/ minis? I am sure you are right. I am not much of a wargamer, so I don't know all my lvls of scale (skirmish, tactical, strategic, theatre, etc.) very well, and I would love to learn. I think for my campaigns I would think in these terms: Heroic = one-to-one "normal" D&D combat HX-crawl = enough to deal with running into an army of 300 out in the wilderness (this is what I use Book of War for) Barony-warfare = once baronies are established, resolving large scale wars b/w them; I imagine hex-and-counter for this Campaign-lvl = highest possible campaign world lvl; here I am using Risk I am open for suggestions though!
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Jun 1, 2015 4:33:53 GMT -6
Interesting. I'e blended ... Swords and Sorcery with PRESTAGS, but never thought to mix in War of the Ring. We need a seperate PRESTAGS thread. Finarvyn, I'd like to hear about the S&S PRESTAGS variant. Not much to tell, actually. When I ran campaigns back in the 1970's, I had a group which was interested in kingdom-scale battles and world domination, so I used Chainmail for some battles and PRESTAGS for other battles. Chainmail already had a Fantasy Supplement, but no such thing exists for PRESTAGS so I would use counters from Sorceror and from Swords and Sorcery to supplement the historical counters already there. Elves could simply be bowmen or horsebowmen from PRESTAGS, Dwarves could be axemen, orcs often were swordmen or spearmen, but PRESTAGS has nothing equivalent to trolls and dragons and that kind of thing. That's where the other games came in, to add in fantasy element units. Sorceror has rules for spellcasters in battle, so that helped as well. I don't think I created anything really sophistocated or anything like that. It was simple and fun and allowed me to fight out large battles with cardboard counters instead of miniatures.
|
|