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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 15:03:22 GMT -6
I am sure this has been covered many times before here but I have read and read and still need to find answers to questions that I have yet to find here so humor me folks. I am currently trying to put together a Middle Earth campaign but there are so many things that are unclear and/or unsure of and I need to find answers so this is one of the better places to get these answers. I am an old schooler, I run 1ed in all my games and Unearth Arcana (1.5) so everything I ask, I am asking in the old school rules format.
Magic use in Middle Earth: here we go .... I have read so many arguments on ME magic use being minor and how some say it is ok to use it normally. I agree, we never really see Wizards in the movies or books and those few we do see really do not cast high end spells, most seem smaller type spells such as cantrips etc. I can agree on this look but then the questions that pop up are ..... I see Magical items "everywhere" and in D&D mahical items are created by Magic Users and the higher level that Magic User is the more powerful magical items he can create. Falling back on Wizards not being that "all powerful" how are these items being created?
Some might say Elves create the items because Elves are the magical race of ME, ok sure but I will ask again if these Wizards are not all powerful, how are these magical items being created? Dwarves as well create magic items, mostly armor, but without Wizards how are they created? I am not (all knowing) of Middle Earth but this is confusing me to no end.
Wizard spell casting ..... could spells that are used be set up as Cantrips? I never see them cast any "serious" spells, except for a Fireball looking spell which could simply be a power of the Staff they wielded. Magic use just seems minor in ME so Cantrips seem to fit well for this, which would explain other people casting magical appearing spells. Maybe Cantrips are what I could use for spell casting classes and then larger spells could simply be from magic items maybe? Maybe I didnt ramble much here .........
Healing Middle Earth: I understand Clerics do not exist but yet I see spell casting being done that HEALS other people. Healing is a divine ability of casting yet this aspect is not in ME "worshiping Gods" etc etc so what type magic is this that is actually healing people? Arwen healed Frodo before she headed to Rivendale. Aragorn healed in the movies .... both appeared to be speaking words of a spell, so what type of healing is this. Gandalf healed as well, so all kinds of healing is done yet we have no Clerics. I could use some explaining on this if possible.
Classes: Myself and a few friends were at work today discussing classes in ME that were playable by players. Now understand that I have pretty much everything in PDF format on Middle Earth RPG but have yet to really read anything because I am trying to get a grasp of things first before plunging into it. Possible classes I see are ...........
Burglar - Hobbit Races easily. I would say this could be Hobbit only? Seems like I read in a Dragon Magazine of the actual Burglar class being written up?
Thief - standard generic class that is easily added for any race.
Assassin - Players will not have access to this since it would be evil I am sure.
Ranger - Would need to be slightly modified I am sure but could work minus the spell casting as a Cleric type unless it should be allowed and said the clerical type powers come from nature?
Warrior/Fighter - No need explaining on this
Cavalier - Basically this could be about what is in Unearthed Arcana from 1.5 ed. I think this would fit in fine in ME.
Alchemist - This was spoken about today since there was a write up in an old old old Dragon Magazine about an actual Alchemist class which could be used as a sub class, treated as a multiclass but could easily fit in as a nature type healing class brewing potions etc etc.
Bard - Not sure how this would work
Druid - Are there Druids in ME and if so could these be added as a class?
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Something else I was thinking about for adapting as a class are back in 2nd edition that had these handbooks such as Rangers Handbook, Elven Handbook etc etc that had kits in them like Blade Singer (possible Elven class), Beast Master or something like that, anyways thought about adapting some of these as well if they fit the ME theme.
What other ME classes are there for players that I might be missing?
Anyways this is enough for my initial question thread. I am sure I will add more later on.
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Post by Falconer on May 1, 2013 16:37:27 GMT -6
Here is an old thread where I’ve developed some of my ideas. My current thoughts are basically to re-skin the D&D races/classes, using the following as a guideline: Human Fighter —> Man/Warrior Human Druid —> Beorning Human Magic-User or Pyrologist —> Wizard (Gandalf-style) Human Illusionist —> Wizard (Saruman-style) Elf Fighter/Magic-User —> Elf or Gnome Dwarf Fighter or Craftsman —> Dwarf Halfling Fighter/Thief —> Hobbit Human Cleric —> Númenorean/Ranger But in practice I’m lot more flexible, allowing players to more or less pick any more-or-less legal race/class combo. Obviously, there can be single-classed elves, or mannish thieves, but we can even fit in Paladins and such if desired. We can bend the rules a little bit, and we can approach the world uncanonically a bit; I’m comfortable with that. You can see how I more-or-less line up the types of magic. Again, it’s a guideline. I know it doesn’t line up 100% with the books, but I’m pretty happy with defining clerical magic as Dúnadan magic, etc. One point that perhaps bears explanation is my approach to Wizards — that they are fays, or “Maiar” if you insist, but not necessarily all special emissaries from the Valar, and there can definitely be more than five of them. I wouldn’t say the world is teeming with them, but players can definitely create them as PCs. I’m not sure why you’re so concerned with magic item creation. That happens almost completely “off-stage” in the books, and it happens almost completely “off-stage” in the game. Elves made these rings; dwarves made this sword. What more do you need to know?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 16:54:28 GMT -6
I understand playing ME in a D&D rules set will change things and it will for sure not be canon but one thing is I thought there were no REAL Wizards and Clerics in ME and if this is factual then I would want to stick to that to keep everything in spirit. I want to run a campaign and keep it with the same feel and yea I want to add stuff to it but as I said, I want to stay true to ME. I was still planning on having Magical spells and Healing spells ... just not CLERIC worshipping spells and pure Wizardly spells with Spell Books etc. I had planned to alter it to fit ME and even tone it all down if need be.
As for the magical item creation I was simply trying to understand.
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Post by Falconer on May 1, 2013 21:49:47 GMT -6
You refer to the movies several times, so maybe a good starting place would be to read the books. I think that seems to be the source of a lot of your confusion.
In Middle-earth, “Wizard” is a race. Gandalf and Saruman are the most obvious examples of Wizards, but there are others mentioned. So there are definitely Wizards in Middle-earth. For the sake of this discussion, can we clearly delineate “Wizard” as the Middle-earth race, and “Magic-User” as the D&D class/profession?
In Middle-earth, you couldn’t have an “Elven Wizard,” simply because Elves and Wizards are both races, so that would be like saying a “Dwarven Hobbit” — it’s nonsensical. Unless you’re talking about a Half-Elf, Half-Wizard like Lúthien.
But the Elves are definitely magical. In D&D terms — “Race Class” — you could have one character who was a “Wizard Magic-User” and another who was an “Elf Magic-User.” And, in D&D terms, you could have plenty of the latter involved in magic item creation. Like I said, I don’t think it matters, but, there you are.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 9, 2013 8:56:48 GMT -6
In Middle-earth, you couldn’t have an “Elven Wizard,” simply because Elves and Wizards are both races, so that would be like saying a “Dwarven Hobbit” — it’s nonsensical. Unless you’re talking about a Half-Elf, Half-Wizard like Lúthien. It's notable that, when asked about "elven magic" Galadriel is very reluctant to use that word. But, as far as "Wizards" are concerned, I think that the term is the one given by human populations, unaware of the real nature of the Istari. So, in the mind of of Middle Earth commoner like Barliman Butterbur, "wizard" might be a synonym of "magic-user", "witch" or something equivalent. It appears also that, apart from the Istari , and other powerful supernatural beings like Sauron or Bombadil, there is (or were) human "sorcerers" like the some of teh Nine ( "those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old") or the Mouth of Sauron (" because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery"). In other terms, there seems to be two kind of "magic users " in Middle Earth: those who are naturally gifted with supernatural powers (Maiar, High elves and some exceptionnal individuals like Aragorn), and those (usually wiched) who acquire it by unnatural means ("sorcerors"). The spell casting classes could be then all merged into one unique "superclass" of "magic user" , with one XP, hit dice and spells progression; then split into two subclasses : "wizards" accessible only to elves and inherently gifted individuals, it's progression being Wisdom-based; and "Sorcerors" requiring a tutelage (by a "true" wizard), and with Intelligence as it's Prime Ability.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 9, 2013 9:55:00 GMT -6
I see Magical items "everywhere" and in D&D magical items are created by Magic Users and the higher level that Magic User is the more powerful magical items he can create. Falling back on Wizards not being that "all powerful" how are these items being created? Some might say Elves create the items because Elves are the magical race of ME, ok sure but I will ask again if these Wizards are not all powerful, how are these magical items being created? Dwarves as well create magic items, mostly armor, but without Wizards how are they created? I am not (all knowing) of Middle Earth but this is confusing me to no end. Dwarves in ME aren't actually seen creating that much magical items. If we try to make a list , very few are of dwarven factory -the rings were created by the elves, under the teachings of Sauron (a "fallen angel") -Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist were made by the elves of Gondolin -the short swords of Merry and Pippin (the only human blades able to hurt the Nazgul) are numenorean ("enlightened" humans taught by elves) -it is not clear if Anduril has any magic power. But if so, it is probably because of its numenorean origin. -the elven cloacks of lorien, well, are elven, if one assumes that their properties are magical ones , and not just the quality of the fabric -idem with the elven ropes (if magical at all) -the vial of Galadriel is an elven object, capturing the light of an "sacred" elven tree. -the palantiri were an elven gift to numenoreans The only two exceptionnal dwarven-made objects I can think of are: -the mithril shirt of mail; but its qualities could just be those of the extraorinary alloy it is made of -the west gate of Moria. Those are drarf-made ( " Im Narvi hain echant") but the elven smiths had a hand in the magical inscriptions ("Celebrimbor o Eregion tethant"). it's worth noting that the password ("mellon") is an elvish word.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 9, 2013 10:07:23 GMT -6
Wizard spell casting ..... could spells that are used be set up as Cantrips? I never see them cast any "serious" spells, except for a Fireball looking spell which could simply be a power of the Staff they wielded. Magic use just seems minor in ME so Cantrips seem to fit well for this, which would explain other people casting magical appearing spells. Maybe Cantrips are what I could use for spell casting classes and then larger spells could simply be from magic items maybe? Maybe I didnt ramble much here ......... True Wizards in ME tend to restrain thenselves. First because their original mission is not to confront Sauron , but pnly to incent the Free Peoples of ME to. Also because apparently the use of magic coumld be detected. But sometimes they use some magic wich , in D&D terms , are more potent than mere cantrips: -in The Hobbit, Gandalf escapes the goblins by creating a burst of fire, killing several of them : it could be a fireball; or maybe burning hands-in the Moria, Gandalf uses Wizard lock to cover their escape, but the Balrog uses some Counter-spell (Knock? Dispel magic? -on the Bridge of Khazad Dum, Gandalf destroys the Bridge with Wall of fire-Saruman is able to use Charm person, or maybe even Mass charm (as all of Theodens yeomen seem to be affected). -Elrond and Galadriel both seem able to use a form of Weather Control-if you interprete the Nazgul "Black breath" as a form of level drain (or ability drain), Elrond being able to cure it is the equivalent of a Restoration spell
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 9, 2013 10:08:47 GMT -6
Druid - Are there Druids in ME and if so could these be added as a class? Radagast seems to fit the model of the D&D druid.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 9, 2013 10:35:09 GMT -6
Radagast loves animals, but he is said to be a master of shapes and hues. His magic is probably more like that of an illusionist.
Other instances of magic in Middle-earth:
Gandalf extinguishes the Balrog's flame with words. Gandalf and Denethor have a battle of wills. Gandalf keeps his identity cloaked; when he uses his power against Denethor his cloak slips and Pippin suddenly wonders why no one ever thought to question Gandalf's origin or power. Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff with words and authority. Isildur curses oathbreakers. Finrod fights Sauron in a battle of song. Luthien performs many magic feats with song, including putting Morgoth to sleep. Several characters change form by putting on a different skin. Ancient elves and wizards communicate telepathically.
Gotta go, but there's tons more.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 9, 2013 12:31:57 GMT -6
I deliberately left the examples from the Silmarillion, wich is very different of the Hobbit ore the LotR in terms of scope and tone, but you are right.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 9, 2013 22:18:26 GMT -6
More...
There's an enchanted stream in Mirkwood. The wood-elves' clearings are guarded by spells that put out the lights and cause confusion. Thorin's company puts spells of secrecy on the troll-hoard they bury. Bard can understand the speech of the thrush. Galadriel gives Sam a box of earth, a single grain of which is enough to cause astounding plant growth where it is placed. The hobbits' swords of Westernesse are bound with spells, though we don't know exactly what kind. Tom Bombadil makes things happen just by singing about them. Gandalf gave the Old Took a pair of diamond studs that responded to commands. Gandalf and Thorin both work incredible feats smoking.
Middle-earth is chock-full of magic! It just doesn't usually come out of a magician's fingers.
The working of magic is generally divided into two kinds: Art and Will. Art is the act of subcreation, as Tolkien defines it in "On Fairy Stories." It is to make something that adds to the glory of Creation. Will is used to dominate others.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 10, 2013 1:45:30 GMT -6
The working of magic is generally divided into two kinds: Art and Will. Art is the act of subcreation, as Tolkien defines it in "On Fairy Stories." It is to make something that adds to the glory of Creation. Will is used to dominate others. Yes, in his Letters, he also makes the diffeerence between Magia and Goeteia, each covering more or less the two categories you speak of. But, in gaming terms, it would be difficult to make a clear cut distinction with this classification between like "white" and "dark" magic spells. Some "white magic" spells would be clearly magia, like all the clerical healing spells, some would be easily labelled "dark" magic (goetia or sorcery), but lots of them fall in between. Galadriel uses some divination magic : art or will? In the Silmarillion Luthien uses a Sleep spell. It would be deemed as Will (goeteia) since it is a mind-affecting spell. melain uses illusions to keep the servants of Morgoth at bay. Can Luthien and Melian really bu labelled as practitioners of dark magic? In his Letters, Tolkien says that good people can use goetia -althought a very benign one.
"Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet f*ggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'.
The magic users in Middle earth seems also to have some kind od specialization: Elrond is a master of healing, Gandalf uses a lot of fire-based spells, Saruman has his Voice, radagast, as you mentioned , is a "master of shapes"... Game-wise, teh "schools of magic" of Ad&D could be a starting point to elaborate some sort of magicsystem for a D&D based Middle earth campaign.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 10, 2013 7:44:23 GMT -6
I specifically didn't separate magic into white and dark because I don't think it's that simple. Lots of perfectly good characters use their wills on others for perfectly good reasons; Gandalf versus the Balrog is an example.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 10, 2013 9:18:20 GMT -6
I specifically didn't separate magic into white and dark because I don't think it's that simple. I didn't say you did. I was just trying to elaborate on the way to model this distinction in D&D terms. And the "white" versus "dark" magic would seem an easy (albeit erroneous) way to do so.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 10, 2013 15:09:20 GMT -6
There is a thread hereabouts that lists off every spell that Gandalf uses in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. That might be a nice resource to peek at if you are building a ME spell system.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 10, 2013 17:28:17 GMT -6
Don't forget the magical toys that the Dwarves under the Mountain used to make for the children of Dale.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 10, 2013 20:17:16 GMT -6
"Obviously magical" to hobbits doesn't necessarily mean we'd call them magical. Hobbits would think a flashlight was magical. Maybe they were magical; maybe they weren't. Maybe the line between magical and technological is a little fuzzy.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 11, 2013 1:09:45 GMT -6
I agree with Stormcrow about dwarven craft. In my idea, their "magic" runs on Clarke's third law : "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
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Post by thorswulf on Jun 11, 2013 7:43:40 GMT -6
Maybe the question isn't how to convert to OD&D rules, but rather to throw out the magic system, and make the magic of ME fit to the game. Perhaps limited spell like effects are possible for each class. Perhaps Dwarves of sufficient level may create wards as a special ability. Or that their knowledge of runes is a skill known only to them. Perhaps an Elf can create enchanted arms an armor if they are maxed out at their level ammounts. Beornings could be shape shifters with the ability to transform into Bears, and speak the languages of beasts. Honestly I don't think Vancian magic fits into Middle earth at all. Magic does, but not in the way the game is presented.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 8:31:38 GMT -6
Don't forget the magical toys that the Dwarves under the Mountain used to make for the children of Dale. I've always enjoyed imagining what those toys would be. My favorite was a flying top.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 11, 2013 9:05:44 GMT -6
Here's an idea that just came to mind. I have not tried any of this.
Revamp the abilities as follows:
Bearing Craft Health Hope Nimbleness Strength Will Wisdom
The name changes are to make them all English words not derived from French or Latin, and I have alphabetized them.
Bearing is exactly the same as Charisma. Craft I'll get to below. Health is exactly the same as Constitution. Hope represents the component of D&D's Wisdom ability that represents the ability to choose the right course of action. The lower your Hope, the more corrupt you are. Nimbleness is exactly the same as Dexterity. Strength is unchanged. Will represents the willpower component of D&D's Wisdom ability. Wisdom is exactly the same as Intelligence. It is used in its older sense of knowledge and reason. Don't be confused with D&D's Wisdom ability!
The two abilities directly associated with magic are Craft and Will. In the normal human range of 3–18, Craft is used to create things that normal humans usually make. Above 18, however, things created become magic. You'll need to implement a skill system, or allow a player to specify their background; whatever they are able to make they make with their Craft ability. Scores above 18 are not disallowed to humans, but the higher score counts as 18 unless the crafter has been taught by Elves or higher spirits (Maiar, etc.). "Crafting" something doesn't just mean physical objects; musical ability is controlled by Craft (Finrod had a Craft so high his music could actually produce images visible to the eye, and could be used to battle Sauron). The referee might require that the player choose a specific craft and note it next to the ability; for instance, "Craft 12 (gardening)." The reason Galadriel is confused by Sam's idea of magic is that Craft is a spectrum of scores, and a 19 is not radically different than 18; it's called magic by men and hobbits because they're usually not capable of it and it's therefore beyond their experience and their understanding.
Craft can also be employed by the enemy in creating deceits and illusions.
Will is also in the range 3–18 for normal humans, though there is no "magic line" as there is for Craft. Anyone can attempt to dominate the Will of another, but to have actual effect there must be some kind of "authority" for your Will. For instance, Isildur's Will allowed him to curse the oath-breakers so that their spirits could not leave Middle-earth until they had fulfilled their oaths, and his authority came from his rights as king. Frodo could not ordinarily control Gollum's Will, but if he put on the Ring he could, as the Ring had established its power over Gollum long ago. Frodo even says he could do this. The Ring is his authority. Authority doesn't have to be righteous, though: Sauron exerts his Will over his lowest soldiers strictly through fear and strength. A battle of Wills might be handled as a pair of Will checks: keep checking until one succeeds and one fails; the one that succeeds dominates the other.
Will over 18 also allows communication by telepathy! Will this strong gives you fine control over your thoughts, how they are perceived by others, how you perceive theirs, and how well you can hide yourself from others. Gandalf's high Will allows him to cloak his presence from those who could sense his power.
Hope represents the opposite of corruption. As you use your Will to dominate others, or as you perform cruel or dishonorable acts, your Hope goes down; great acts of sacrifice or nobility make it go up. The Nine Rings and the Seven were designed to suck away your Hope and to give the wearer of the One the ability to bypass their wearers' Will and automatically dominate their minds. Ordinary humans who keep to themselves have average Hope of 9–12; below this and they're less and less savory. Below 3 and they're unquestionably evil.
"Spells" are words, songs, or incantations that cause an effect. They are a combination of Craft and Will: Craft to speak or write the words, Will to give the words power. Spells are not D&D-style recipes; they're custom-made each time. I do not present a workable system here. They are not the dominant form of magic in Middle-earth. Finrod's song-battle with Sauron is an epic example of spells in action. Gandalf also uses a Word of Command when trying to hold a door closed against the Balrog, which I interpret to mean an absolute command using his entire Will, and probably quite draining. Will can dominate things as well as minds, if you have the right words (i.e., spell).
There are some ideas to work with. None are fully fleshed-out.
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Post by kent on Jun 11, 2013 12:08:05 GMT -6
This topic is always interesting, in fact it would be useful for all D&D DMs to have a paragraph ready on how they would adapt D&D for gaming in middle-earth.
Personally, I believe that every single gaming stat introduced diminishes middle-earth in some way. To play a game there requires some scores but proceedings would be better played out with elements of story telling to complement the missing stats. I don't think there should much in the way of progression or advancement, so the level concept would be static.
Magic seems to emanate from personality which is largely fixed by race into only a few types by Tolkien. It is also a preserve of the mighty, so mighty that frankly shouldn't magic be an NPC only concept? In which case it need not be systematised; magical effects could be introduced when required again in the manner of a story.
Does anyone play D&D with players with the power of a Gandalf, a Galadriel or an Elrond? I think magic should be hidden from the players as a mechanic.
Also do either of Boromir or Aragorn benefit from having str, dex and con? I think adjectival descriptors suit better, tall, hale, strong, swift along with 'than'. So Aragorn is tall, taller than Boromir. Boromir is strong, stronger than Aragorn. Keep some vagueness and use much simpler resolution mechanics such as d6 rolls where the adjectives do not decide the outcome of a conflict.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 11, 2013 15:39:19 GMT -6
The french indie game "La Terre des Heros" , by Olivier Legrand (the one behind Mazes & Minotaurs) is very similar to some ideas you describe: no magic -using PCs, a very simple D6-based mechanic, and the abilities (traits) are split in "Ressources": Vigor, Knowledge, Alertness, Presence- and "Qualities": Courage, Loyalty, Wisdom and Will. The first ones are the innate traits of the PC, the second ones are modified during play by his succes or failures. The game is -in my eyes- one of the best RPG adaptations of Tolkien's vision, but has a strong narrativist structure and is beyond the point of the original question.
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 11, 2013 15:42:19 GMT -6
Also do either of Boromir or Aragorn benefit from having str, dex and con? I think adjectival descriptors suit better, tall, hale, strong, swift along with 'than'. So Aragorn is tall, taller than Boromir. Boromir is strong, stronger than Aragorn. Keep some vagueness and use much simpler resolution mechanics such as d6 rolls where the adjectives do not decide the outcome of a conflict. That is very consistent with the abilities of OD&D : very little mechanical advantages, 3-8 is "low", 9-12 is "average" , 13-18 is "good".
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 11, 2013 15:53:15 GMT -6
I have often mused around this idea, but I would keep "intelligence" and "Wisdom" separted. "Wisdom" and "wise" are words often used by Tolkien, and they seem to have a different meaning than intelligence: "For all your subtelties, you have no wisdom" cries Denethor (maybe not the better judge of character concerning wisdom, I concede...).
In the same vein, the difference between Saruman and Gandalf: the former has more knowledge and "subtelty" and relies on his intelligence ("a mind of metal and wheels"), but the second is the wiser.
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Post by kent on Jun 12, 2013 12:54:20 GMT -6
Also do either of Boromir or Aragorn benefit from having str, dex and con? I think adjectival descriptors suit better, tall, hale, strong, swift along with 'than'. So Aragorn is tall, taller than Boromir. Boromir is strong, stronger than Aragorn. Keep some vagueness and use much simpler resolution mechanics such as d6 rolls where the adjectives do not decide the outcome of a conflict. That is very consistent with the abilities of OD&D : very little mechanical advantages, 3-8 is "low", 9-12 is "average" , 13-18 is "good". Yes, it would be if the numbers were discarded on creation and only the 3 categories retained. There is a different feel for me in having far less precision in character stats. For example: Within the party we have A is strong. A is stronger than B and C. Within an npc party we have Z is strong. Z is stronger than Y and X. Then when the two parties meet we don't know who is the stronger, A or Z? Perhaps a trial of strength integral to the adventure will decide. Perhaps we will never know. This seems more realistic to me, and more interesting than every single character having a static measurement for instant comparison.
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Post by kent on Jun 12, 2013 13:02:49 GMT -6
The french indie game "La Terre des Heros" , by Olivier Legrand (the one behind Mazes & Minotaurs) is very similar to some ideas you describe. The game is -in my eyes- one of the best RPG adaptations of Tolkien's vision, but has a strong narrativist structure and is beyond the point of the original question. Interesting. What year was it written? No English version I take it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 13:32:31 GMT -6
In most sword & sorcery and fairy tales, "wisdom" (in the sense of good judgement, cleverness, streetwiseness, etc.) is very close to "intelligence" (academic knowledge and the ability to pick it up), or, at least, it is greatly more important. This is also true in the real world; almost all cognitive abilities are strongly linked to IQ scores. But in Tolkien, they are quite distinct. (They are also distinct in some s&s; e.g., Xaltotun's arrogance and overconfidence.)
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 12, 2013 14:24:57 GMT -6
The french indie game "La Terre des Heros" , by Olivier Legrand (the one behind Mazes & Minotaurs) is very similar to some ideas you describe. The game is -in my eyes- one of the best RPG adaptations of Tolkien's vision, but has a strong narrativist structure and is beyond the point of the original question. Interesting. What year was it written? No English version I take it. No english version that I know of. But you can still find the original here, if interested. storygame.free.fr/tdh.htm
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Post by Porphyre on Jun 14, 2013 2:03:26 GMT -6
Revamp the abilities as follows:
Bearing Craft Health Hope Nimbleness Strength Will Wisdom
The name changes are to make them all English words not derived from French or Latin, and I have alphabetized them.
I guess you have read Uncleftish beholding from Poul Anderson. Fair enough
As I said earlier, I would keep Intelligence and Wisdom separated à la D&D. Intelligence is analytical , Wisdom aprehends the Creation as a whole: "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom" says Gandalf to Saruman.
You could rename Intellignece "wits" or "mind" to remain consistent with the Anglo Saxon terminology (I think Tolkien uses both terms in the LotR) About Hope, maybe you could merge it with Wisdom. When you see the case of Denethor, the contrary of hope is despair and "folly". So, if despair and folly are synonyms , maybe hope and wisdom are too. same thing for Saruman: as he "(leaves) the path of wisdom", he loses hope in his mission and tries to ally with the Dark Lord.
I like very much the way you go with Craft and Will. Maybe - for the sake of simplicity- the two might be merged in one stat like "Power" (à la Chaosium), if you don't want to use Wisdom. "Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled."
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