Implications of the tables on setting

[cadriel]

I wrote a blog post that discusses the implied setting (based on Outdoor Survival and the encounter tables) of OD&D here:

initiativeone.blogspot.com/2013/04/on-od-setting.html

Any thoughts?

[geoffrey]

That is a fascinating post. You've succinctly described the original published D&D setting, and you're right: It is very different than Greyhawk or any of the traditional "vanilla" settings. I'd love to be a player in that.

[talysman]

I think the way castle inhabitants work is straight out of Arthurian tales. Knights are always running into random rogue knights who challenge passers-by, or enchantresses, or monasteries or abbeys. King Arthur isn't as popular anymore with fantasy fans, so it seems double-weird.

I always loved the sparser, tinier kingdoms and baronies on the edge of fantastic wilderness that's implied in U&WA. It's why I came up with the Nine and Thirty Kingdoms idea that I named my blog after.

[Falconer]

Apr 24, 2013 15:32:58 GMT -6 talysman said:

King Arthur isn't as popular anymore with fantasy fans, so it seems double-weird.

Aw, really? That’s a shame. I guess Arthuriana really has become saddled with some lame-ass connotations, after each generation has had its way with it. If only there were a way to get Chrétien out ahead of all the noise.

[kesher]

Great analysis!

[cadriel]

Apr 24, 2013 15:32:58 GMT -6 talysman said:

I think the way castle inhabitants work is straight out of Arthurian tales. Knights are always running into random rogue knights who challenge passers-by, or enchantresses, or monasteries or abbeys. King Arthur isn't as popular anymore with fantasy fans, so it seems double-weird.

That's a terrific observation. I like the implications - if it's OK I'd like to mention it when I write up the castles bit in a future post.

[machpants]

That was a great eye opener to me, not having ODnD (yet). I seem to remember reading on a blog that even the original folio Greyhawk was very sparse, or is that what you are using for your piece? I only have the box set Greyhawk so no knowledge of folio or previous. I am really enjoying learning stuff like this, HISTORY + RPGs = awesome!

[Morandir]

That's a very interesting post indeed, and I think it points out just how much interesting adventure can be had just from what's found, straight-up, in the LBBs - there's plenty of weirdness to go around!

I agree that the castles have much Arthurian flavor, but for some reason (probably because I had just read the books when I got to that section of Vol. III) I always think of the Compleat Enchanter series, especially when the main characters are adventuring in the realm of Spencer's Faerie Queene. For those of the CAS bent, I think it would be interesting to infuse them all with the flavor of Averoigne as well!

[talysman]

Apr 24, 2013 16:44:58 GMT -6 cadriel said:

Apr 24, 2013 15:32:58 GMT -6 talysman said:

I think the way castle inhabitants work is straight out of Arthurian tales. Knights are always running into random rogue knights who challenge passers-by, or enchantresses, or monasteries or abbeys.

That's a terrific observation. I like the implications - if it's OK I'd like to mention it when I write up the castles bit in a future post.

Go ahead. It's double-OK!

Apr 24, 2013 15:57:34 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Apr 24, 2013 15:32:58 GMT -6 talysman said:

King Arthur isn't as popular anymore with fantasy fans, so it seems double-weird.

Aw, really? That’s a shame. I guess Arthuriana really has become saddled with some lame-ass connotations, after each generation has had its way with it. If only there were a way to get Chrétien out ahead of all the noise.

I don't know if it's the connotations. I suspect schools have simply stopped teaching the tales of King Arthur and possibly mythology as well. I also suspect that, beginning in the '80s, many parents stopped reading Arthurian tales, classic European fairy tales, and the Arabian Nights to their kids because of modern attitudes about what's appropriate for children (too dark, too violent.) Any knowledge of these things is via watered-down kids movies. The result is that the younger someone is, the less connected they feel to those traditions.

Apr 24, 2013 17:00:47 GMT -6 Morandir said:

I agree that the castles have much Arthurian flavor, but for some reason (probably because I had just read the books when I got to that section of Vol. III) I always think of the Compleat Enchanter series, especially when the main characters are adventuring in the realm of Spencer's Faerie Queene. For those of the CAS bent, I think it would be interesting to infuse them all with the flavor of Averoigne as well!

Well, The Faerie Queene has a very strong Arthurian vibe, so it certainly contributed, via the Compleat Enchanter. As did the castle of Otranto. (Where's that from? Orlando Furioso?)

[geoffrey]

Apr 24, 2013 16:51:53 GMT -6 machpants said:

I seem to remember reading on a blog that even the original folio Greyhawk was very sparse, or is that what you are using for your piece?

I remember reading that, too. Greyhawk as presented in the folio and in the boxed set from the early 1980s has very small human populations. The Greyhawk products are different publications from what cadriel is analyzing: the implications of the 1974 D&D boxed set.

[machpants]

Ah thanks ... still awaiting my Christmas-ish arrival of ODnD!

[cooper]

This is the reason I love Skyrim so much. The designers obviously borrowed heavily from the LBB. You have 5 holds with a sparce population close to the Jarls keep and inbetween are literally wooly mammoths (and their giant handlers), saber tooth cats, necromancers in caves, and bandits galore.

[Vile Traveller]

Although Ive read all the materials extensively over the last year I've never put all the elements together in this way, it's a fascinating look at what is created by the rules with or without conscious intent. This sparse wilderness-dominated world is also very much in line with the original Known World of B/X, before it changed dramatically with BECMI and the transformation into Mystara.

[cadriel]

So folks here know, I've turned this into a whole series of posts that you can follow via the "setting" tag on my blog:

initiativeone.blogspot.com/search/label/setting

Each of these is cross-referencing the information in U&WA with what's in M&M and M&T to dig out further hidden setting assumptions.

[cadriel]

I finished the series and it's now available in PDF if anybody's interested:

initiativeone.blogspot.com/2013/05/od-setting-posts-in-pdf.html

[coffee]

Thanks for making the pdf available! I've been enjoying this series.

The whole thing is reminiscent of the articles you'd find in the early days of The Dragon. Have an exalt!

[Deleted]

Not a bad article. One thing to make clear, though, is that we were in no way limited to the area of ONE Outdoor Survival map; you could keep going in any direction. The OS map was simply the "generic terrain map" for any section of outdoors.

[Deleted]

...geez, now I want to find a copy of Avalon Hill's "Starship Troopers" and use THAT map too...

[Deleted]

...and also, I think the UWI tables emphasize how heavily Gary was influenced by "Dying Earth." Small civilized areas separated by huge wildernesses full of pelgrane, deodands, and other horrid things...

[Stormcrow]

May 10, 2013 9:43:03 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

we were in no way limited to the area of ONE Outdoor Survival map; you could keep going in any direction. The OS map was simply the "generic terrain map" for any section of outdoors.

You mean it was treated like a great big geomorph?

[cadriel]

May 10, 2013 9:43:03 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Not a bad article. One thing to make clear, though, is that we were in no way limited to the area of ONE Outdoor Survival map; you could keep going in any direction. The OS map was simply the "generic terrain map" for any section of outdoors.

That makes sense. I was interested in what it would look like if we treated the OS map as a setting in its own right, since it's pretty big if you measure it. What I really liked was how different it felt from, say, the published World of Greyhawk as I figured out exactly how things should look extrapolated from the charts.

[gronkthebold]

I have just read the PDF, and I think this is an excellent examination of the OS map and various tables that make up the bulk of "Underworld and Wilderness Adventures" as a setting. There's a great sense of hidden adventure (or adventure potential) in each location type that is brilliantly mentioned in sections such as the wizard's tower. If I every feel like starting afresh and refereeing OD&D White Box again, I will use this setting or draw inspiration from all the great ideas in it. In short, this is awesome, well done.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2013 9:52:30 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

May 10, 2013 9:43:03 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

we were in no way limited to the area of ONE Outdoor Survival map; you could keep going in any direction. The OS map was simply the "generic terrain map" for any section of outdoors.

You mean it was treated like a great big geomorph?

Ayuh, as they say Down East.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2013 10:16:02 GMT -6 cadriel said:

May 10, 2013 9:43:03 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Not a bad article. One thing to make clear, though, is that we were in no way limited to the area of ONE Outdoor Survival map; you could keep going in any direction. The OS map was simply the "generic terrain map" for any section of outdoors.

That makes sense. I was interested in what it would look like if we treated the OS map as a setting in its own right, since it's pretty big if you measure it. What I really liked was how different it felt from, say, the published World of Greyhawk as I figured out exactly how things should look extrapolated from the charts.

And, of course, you can still use it that way. I once did a poster-size map of Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age, and made a plastic overlay with squares drawn on it. Each square was an Outdoor Survival map. In certain areas I knew what the terrain was, but once you were outside the "square" containing a major city, you went to the OS map.

[DungeonDevil]

How did you arrive at 31,500 sq. miles? My computations are pretty different, then.

By my count my copy of the OS map (I don't know if the various printings had slightly different areas or features) has 1,447.38 hexes (approx 33.66 hexes by exactly 43 hexes), with each being an area of 16.238 sq. miles*. Thus the total I came up with was 23,502.55644 square miles. I guess I'll have to go back to the OS board and count again.
_________________________
*AREA OF A HEXAGON:
[(√3/2)x3] r^2=A
where r = radius of circle in which the hex is inscribed and is the same as the side of the hex.
"Scale: Assume the greatest distance across a hex is about 5 miles." (U&WA, p. 17) I then took the radius (=side of a hex) as 2.5 miles, obviously.

[cadriel]

May 10, 2013 16:24:47 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

How did you arrive at 31,500 sq. miles? My computations are pretty different, then.

By my count my copy of the OS map (I don't know if the various printings had slightly different areas or features) has 1,447.38 hexes (approx 33.66 hexes by exactly 43 hexes), with each being an area of 16.238 sq. miles*. Thus the total I came up with was 23,502.55644 square miles. I guess I'll have to go back to the OS board and count again.
_________________________
*AREA OF A HEXAGON:
[(√3/2)x3] r^2=A
where r = radius of circle in which the hex is inscribed and is the same as the side of the hex.

I think I had a similar number of hexes but was measuring 5 miles across, not five miles per side. It was very back of the envelope math and could be off a bit.

[Finarvyn]

I'm not so sure about the "stated setting of original Dungeons & Dragons" premise. Blackmoor was the first campaign setting of OD&D, and players from Blackmoor did venture into the Southlands, but that doesn't really make the OS map the "stated setting" IMO.

Then you note a quote from Gary regarding his pre-Greyhawk map, but this map wasn't the same as the OS map. Gary's map was loosely based off of an inverted North America, I believe, and I don't recall any cases where he used the OS map at all. I'm pretty sure that was a Dave thing.

I think there are some neat ideas here and I'm really glad you shared them, but am not certain about the accuracy.

Or, am I confused somehow?

[aldarron]

May 11, 2013 5:08:36 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I'm not so sure about the "stated setting of original Dungeons & Dragons" premise. Blackmoor was the first campaign setting of OD&D, and players from Blackmoor did venture into the Southlands, but that doesn't really make the OS map the "stated setting" IMO.
...

Yep, In the "Into the Great Outdoors" section of the First Fantasy Campaign, Dave tells us. "After the first year, the guys traveled around more and we began to use the Outdoor Survival Board (it was not until the third year that we actually moved into it). For that, we needed an Encounter Matrix...."

"second year" would be 1972/3. That original encounter table is published in the FFC and is unsurprisingly similar to those of D&D, minus martians and dinosaurs. A few Dinos did show up in Blackmoor in later days, along with such oddities as undead samurai submariners.

The OS map was used most extensively "in the third year" FFC 1980:47, for the new lands area. On the MMRPG boards, Svenson said, "An area we called "province one". Dave simply placed the map from Avalon Hill's "Outdoor Survival" game next to the Blackmoor map and showed us which hex had our new fief in it."

Here's Daves summary of the Outdoor Survival phase of Blackmoor. "Later, the game moved south and then used the Outdoor Survival map for this phase of the campaign when the exiles from Blackmoor set up shop after the bad scene at Lake Gloomy. On the Outdoor Survival board, borders appeared half way between the various player's Castles, and roads were built also. Major border changes occurred when Monson was wiped out and the entire area where John Snider held sway was covered in a deadly yellow mist. No one knows what happened inside John's area (no one has come out)! Significant events included a Nomad attack from the Duchv of Ten that was wiped out by Svenson and the Sniders. A great Peasant revolt that wiped out Monson, badly hurt Nelson and was then wiped out by all the other players." FFC 1980:11

[Stormcrow]

May 11, 2013 5:08:36 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I'm not so sure about the "stated setting of original Dungeons & Dragons" premise.

It's not that the setting of D&D is a land called Outdoor Survival; it's simply what you get if you take the booklets at their word and play out the rules as written. Using the OS board, combined with faithful rolling on the encounter tables, leads to the specific configuration outlines in the blog posts. A gamer not familiar with the authors' campaigns might follow the booklets and get what has been described.

And if this configuration was intended from the beginning, if the tables faithfully reflect the kind of world the authors had in mind, then this is the "implied setting" of D&D, and this informs other aspects of the game. It means that D&D is not necessarily meant to reflect a specific period or genre (e.g., medieval Tolkienish); it's a true hodgepodge of sources, where you can transition from one source to another simply by traveling to a different type of terrain.

Essentially, when you rolled a particular type of encounter, you then went out of your way to contextualize the encounter on the OS board. If you are in the desert and roll up nomads, you now know that the desert is inhabited by a tribe of nomads, and this will inform future campaign play.

[funkaoshi]

This series of posts really was fantastic. One of the best things I've read about D&D in ages.