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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Feb 16, 2011 18:15:33 GMT -6
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 16, 2011 22:32:22 GMT -6
Interesting read and great illustrations! Nicely done.
I can't help but wonder why you would explicitly state that an Elf fighter "switches off" his magic-user capabilities (and vis versa) when the original text seems to imply the opposite?
Anyway, that is perhaps just a personal gripe of my own. Great work, can't wait to see the finished product ;D
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 17, 2011 5:16:38 GMT -6
I can't help but wonder why you would explicitly state that an Elf fighter "switches off" his magic-user capabilities (and vis versa) when the original text seems to imply the opposite? The original text also implies the BHP solution, stating the elf can "freely switch class whenever they choose" and goes on to say when they could do so. If the only difference is a simple division of XP depending on whether the elf was a fighter or MU, then why not a simpler "divide the XP evenly between the classes" as in later editions? And why the difference in armor-wearing ability? Of course, it could be argued that is what the EGG intended. However, Gygax offered a similar explanation to BHP's when asked about the OD&D elf; thought I don't recall if it was on Dragonsfoot or EnWorld. He even went on to say that elf PCs should maintain two separate character sheets, one as fighter and another as magic-user. Granted, his answers to things tended to vary from time to time. (edited for clarity)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 17, 2011 16:10:08 GMT -6
... stating the elf can "freely switch class whenever they choose" That is so, 18 spears, but nowhere does the original text state that switching from one class to the other "switches off" the first class's benefits.
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Post by cooper on Feb 17, 2011 19:37:11 GMT -6
A player could level and retire three fighters at 9th level (240,000) and develop a castle for each of them one after the other, before the player of a wizard has a chance to build his own keep (600,000). Have you considered this?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 17, 2011 20:21:44 GMT -6
A player could level and retire three fighters at 9th level (240,000) and develop a castle for each of them one after the other, before the player of a wizard has a chance to build his own keep (600,000). Have you considered this? Cooper, it isn't clear who "you" refers to, but I disagree that three fighters could consecutively attain 240,000 XP in the time it would take one magic-user to attain 600,000 XP because XP is not attained at a uniform rate. Higher level PCs acquire more XP per adventure. In any case, according to John's linked post, a fighter requires 240,001 XP to reach level 9, and a magic-user requires 310,001 XP to reach level 9. It doesn't state explicitly that a magic-user may build a stronghold at 9th level (possibly an omission). As Elves may only reach 4th level as a fighter and 8th level as a magic-user, I'm not sure how stronghold construction is directly relevant to the matter of Elvish dual classing?
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 17, 2011 20:29:06 GMT -6
... stating the elf can "freely switch class whenever they choose" That is so, 18 spears, but nowhere does the original text state that switching from one class to the other "switches off" the first class's benefits. (shrug) That's a weak argument. The presentation of the elf is so sketchy that there are several ways to rule how an elf works without being in contradiction to the printed word. If an elf switches from being a fighter to a magic-user and as a MU he uses the fighter attack matrix, saving throws, is able to cast spells, use a magic sword ... how is that changing anything? At any rate, I see your point, I just disagree with you that it contradicts their stated goal.
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Post by cooper on Feb 17, 2011 20:38:25 GMT -6
As Elves may only reach 4th level as a fighter and 8th level as a magic-user, I'm not sure how stronghold construction is directly relevant to the matter of Elvish dual classing? I had to double check the title of this thread, but it doesn't appear to be "let's talk about only elves". Secondly, XP absolutely is granted at a uniform rate when one player retires his 9th level fighter and then introduces a newly transitioned henchmen cum PC 4st level fighter into the campaign. Or your (by which I mean somebody's) character dies and the referee has them roll up a fresh 1st level character. Or do characters not die in OS games? Is this 4e? I think bravehalfling is doing entertaining work with all their projects, but they should ask themselves if they're looking to make a retro clone, why "break what's not broken?" Before messing with the XP tables you (by which I mean somebody) should understand what the originals were designed to do before turning a pretty math table into a fetish of game play. It just reeks of "I have an obsessive compulsive disorder with tables" or "Gary Gygax must have not known what he was doing there." Gygax absolutely knew what he was doing with the xp tables and it doesn't appear that Delving Deeper does besides making uniform charts. I mean what is a player getting by using DD when it now takes 300,000 more xp to achieve the same level as he would using any other 0e retroclone? What does he get for 300,000 xp?
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 17, 2011 20:57:21 GMT -6
As Elves may only reach 4th level as a fighter and 8th level as a magic-user, I'm not sure how stronghold construction is directly relevant to the matter of Elvish dual classing? I had to double check the title of this thread, but it doesn't appear to be "let's talk about only elves". Secondly, XP absolutely is granted at a uniform rate when one player retires his 9th level fighter and then introduces a newly transitioned henchmen cum PC 4st level fighter into the campaign. Or your (by which I mean somebody's) character dies and the referee has them roll up a fresh 1st level character. Or do characters not die in OS games? Is this 4e? I think bravehalfling is doing entertaining work with all their projects, but they should ask themselves if they're looking to make a retro clone, why "break what's not broken?" Before messing with the XP tables you (by which I mean somebody) should understand what the originals were designed to do before turning a pretty math table into a fetish of game play. It just reeks of "I have an obsessive compulsive disorder with tables" or "Gary Gygax must have not known what he was doing there." Gygax absolutely knew what he was doing with the xp tables and it doesn't appear that Delving Deeper does besides making uniform charts. I've nothing to add to that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 22:26:30 GMT -6
I think bravehalfling is doing entertaining work with all their projects, but they should ask themselves if they're looking to make a retro clone, why "break what's not broken?" Before messing with the XP tables you (by which I mean somebody) should understand what the originals were designed to do before turning a pretty math table into a fetish of game play. It just reeks of "I have an obsessive compulsive disorder with tables" or "Gary Gygax must have not known what he was doing there." Gygax absolutely knew what he was doing with the xp tables and it doesn't appear that Delving Deeper does besides making uniform charts. I mean what is a player getting by using DD when it now takes 300,000 more xp to achieve the same level as he would using any other 0e retroclone? What does he get for 300,000 xp? This sort of over the top, sarcastic and snide type of comment is exactly why I rarely post here anymore. The question can be raised without the unnecessary quips and assumptions. I had to double check the title of this thread, but it doesn't appear to be "let's talk about only elves". The big clue in the title is the word "Development". This clone is in the process of being developed and John is posting threads like this to get some feedback from folks to help us keep on track. We welcome and want that feedback, but how about giving it without the unwarranted crap? In regards to the magic-user xp example, I may be jumping the gun here because we've yet to discuss it as a team, but it looks to me to be a simple oversight on our part based on the way we are putting the clone together. I'm glad you brought it to our attention cooper, even if I don't appreciate the way it was done.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 18, 2011 1:23:37 GMT -6
(shrug) That's a weak argument. Your are welcome to your own opinion, of course. The full details of my weak argument are discussed at some length on this forum here . The presentation of the elf is so sketchy that there are several ways to rule how an elf works without being in contradiction to the printed word. I agree. That is exactly why I questioned whether it is (or isn't) a good thing to introduce an additional explicit restriction which eliminates at least one perfectly valid interpretation of the original. That is my question for the BHP guys. I had to double check the title of this thread, but it doesn't appear to be "let's talk about only elves". That was why I asked whether or not you were addressing the most recently posted comments regarding Elves, or the original topic, when you referred to "you". Secondly, XP absolutely is granted at a uniform rate when one player retires his 9th level fighter and then introduces a newly transitioned henchmen cum PC 4st level fighter into the campaign. I must respectfully disagree, Cooper. Suppose that a 1st level fighter miraculously survived an expedition to the 7th dungeon level in the company of more powerful PCs. He is unlikely to have contributed equally to the venture, and would be equally unlikely to earn a major share in the treasure, and hence the experience points. Even if he should be "given" a substantial share of the loot (and therefore XP) by an overly generous party, the text of Men & Magic (p. 18) recommends that "no more experience points be awarded for any single adventure than will suffice to move the character upwards one level". So if a 6th level magic-user and a 1st level fighter were each awarded 25,000 XP, the fighter could not benefit from more than 3,999 XP. The other 21,001 XP would be wasted. I think bravehalfling is doing entertaining work with all their projects Agreed wholeheartedly.
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 18, 2011 5:01:01 GMT -6
Your are welcome to your own opinion, of course. The full details of my weak argument are discussed at some length on this forum here . Thanks for the link. I can see you've put a lot of thought into this issue. My main point remains undefeated, in that the interpretation forwarded by BHP does not contradict its source material in any way. A secondary point also remains that, as written, the elf class in OD&D requires interpretation by the referee. You make some fine points in your linked thread and I would have no problem playing an elf character that way, either. Like the material in discussion, what you posted doesn't contradict the written word. Still, as much as I admire you line of reasoning? I have to admire BHP just as much for taking the time to research the intent of the author of the material in question. We disagree, but I'm pleased to see we can disagree in a civil manner. Thanks for the discussion. ETA: I'd like to continue, or at least clarify, this discussion. I've taken it back to the other thread so as not to derail this topic.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Feb 18, 2011 8:08:20 GMT -6
Thanks for bringing up the problem with the Magic-User XP chart! That's one of the reasons why we are doing a development blog.
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Post by 18 Spears on Feb 18, 2011 8:13:59 GMT -6
That is exactly why I questioned whether it is (or isn't) a good thing to introduce an additional explicit restriction which eliminates at least one perfectly valid interpretation of the original. That is my question for the BHP guys. And with due consideration, I'd have to agree. That is a good question to pose. John posts here, perhaps he'll take notice.
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Post by Professor P on Feb 18, 2011 8:31:30 GMT -6
That is exactly why I questioned whether it is (or isn't) a good thing to introduce an additional explicit restriction which eliminates at least one perfectly valid interpretation of the original. That is my question for the BHP guys. And with due consideration, I'd have to agree. That is a good question to pose. John posts here, perhaps he'll take notice. Seconded! (or thirded, I suppose)
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Feb 18, 2011 16:59:40 GMT -6
Why do I feel like I am standing in the room, everyone is talking about me but not to me?
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Post by verhaden on Feb 18, 2011 17:41:57 GMT -6
Such is the fate of most halflings.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Feb 18, 2011 18:24:46 GMT -6
Such is the fate of most halflings. Quite true.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 19:04:07 GMT -6
Did anyone hear a noise just then? I thought I heard someone speak.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 20:46:55 GMT -6
I last posted here about a year ago. Real life was piling up on me and I had to take a bit of break from the board. In any event, John has asked me to take a look at the discussion here regarding Delving Deeper. I am the author of the work and I appreciate John "taking it up" over here I thought I would show up and present another target voice of support.
The two major issues thus far, the magic-user experience point progression and elf multi-class specifications were both my doing.
In the posts below I will outline how these came about and what we're doing about them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 21:03:16 GMT -6
Issue #1: Magic-User XP Progression
I was wrestling with some issues with regard to XP progression. How much change would the fan-base accept before it revolted? A cut-n-paste job from OD&D is out of the question, so what to do?
Around this time, Dan Proctor of Goblinoid Games lent his support to the project. I decided the XP charts from the LL supplement "Original Edition Characters" would be a fine start. I was in a bit of a hurry to get a rough draft ready for the editor so I checked out the fighting-man chart and it looked good. I then copied the "big three" over to the rough draft with the good intentions (with which the road to hell is paved!) of giving them a more careful vetting later.
As is often the case with a big project like this, the "later" got lost in a whirlwind of newer issues. It is to be hoped it would have been caught in the proofing. The material John has been posting has been gone over by basically one person: Cameron DuBeers.
The error, and I'll call it that here, is all mine and nobody else's. I do appreciate Cooper for pointing it out.
Do understand the material has not gone to our proof-readers yet. You're seeing the actual development of the project before your eyes--well--snippets of it, at least! Quality control is very important to me and the rest of the BHP crew. This is a project dear to my heart and I've repeated over and over to the others involved: the project comes above my ego. I want this to be the best [unprintable] clone it can be within the legal realities.
So, sing out if you see something. I can't guarantee I can make everyone happy. What I do promise is to read each and every comment and suggestion and carefully consider your words.
I hope this post isn't a teal deer. Thanks for reading.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 21:38:36 GMT -6
As with issue #1, this one is entirely my fault. In point of fact, the entire work is my baby. John has given me complete autonomy regarding content. One facet of this problem lies with newer gamers. One of the smartest gamers I know once told me OD&D should have come with a label: Warning! Not a Complete Game! Well I don't agree with him I have been able to understand his point of view. My goal was to provide two things: (1) A true OD&D clone, even as LL and OSRIC are true clones of their respective areas. (2) Provide the tools for my genius level (no kidding! the guy has forgotten more stuff than most of us will ever learn) friend to play Delving Deeper out of the box without having to write a single house rule. Don't misunderstand. I love house-rules! My home campaign, established in the 1970's, would have some of you pulling out your hair! But, that isn't everyone's bag. I want a 12 year old with a normal IQ to be able to open the box, read the rules, and play the game. No foreknowledge of wargames or FRPGs required. We're even going to dice and a starter dungeon and campaign into the boxed set. So another thanks goes out, this one to Ways of the Earth. The "switch off" gaff was mine (and again, mine alone) and we are already in talks in the cabal about how to deal with this issue. Thanks! P. S. I've edited this post, yes, but I've not changed the reply. I corrected Ways of the Earth's name, above.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 18, 2011 22:20:34 GMT -6
Cool, thanks for the detailed explanations DuBeers.
I'm... "relieved"(?) to hear that you are considering remedial action on the matter of Elves. It certainly does seem to be a rather emotive subject !
p.s. I prefer "ways of the earth" ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2011 8:03:18 GMT -6
Cool, thanks for the detailed explanations DuBeers. I'm... "relieved"(?) to hear that you are considering remedial action on the matter of Elves. It certainly does seem to be a rather emotive subject ! p.s. I prefer "ways of the earth" ;D "Earth" not "Hearth". Noted! ;D The Team knew going in the project would ruffle a few feathers. Such was not our intention but it is my belief we all feel a degree of ownership in our favorite hobby. As much as I'd like to I'll never be able to make everyone happy with this work. If I can make the majority of hard-core fans in agree that DD is truest clone legally possible, then I'll be content with a job well done. Please feel free to post any further concerns. John, Dave, and I appreciate feedback and we really do carefully consider all criticism and praise.
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Post by Falconer on Feb 19, 2011 9:59:41 GMT -6
Hey, DuBeers. This is in regards to Blog #2, but I thought I would share it with you since you’re here:
I definitely urge you to keep all optional rules in a separate booklet, especially if they are more lenient than the base rules. This includes even the Master of the Game sections. For example, if Book I states that a PC is generated by rolling 3d6 in order, but the Master of the Game did 4d6 arrange as desired, it will be very difficult for the referee to enforce the stricter rule without appearing to be a jerk. The other Master of the Game examples are fine, but the above is very problematic IMO. I also wouldn’t include the Drow rumor, but that’s just me. (I like the Meadow Elves and Wood Elves thing from OD&D because it echoes the Rivendell and Mirkwood Elves setup in The Hobbit.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2011 10:35:03 GMT -6
Thanks for the advice. John and I spoke on the telephone this morning. Obviously DD is still a work in progress but it looks as if we're going to split the material into two handbooks, one for players1 and another for the referee. So your suggestion is definitely something we can easily do, and, I think it is a great idea.
Regarding your other point? (innocently) Drow? Who or what are these drow you speak of? Seriously, though, thanks for the advice. It is very appreciated.
1Playahs to you youngsters!
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Post by pessimisthalfling on Apr 10, 2011 19:41:36 GMT -6
I have been meaning to ask: Is there going to be a Thief class in Delving Deeper?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 19:46:16 GMT -6
Yes. The thief appears at the end of the section on choosing a character class and marked very plainly as optional (in keeping with the spirit of our work) but he is in there.
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Post by pessimisthalfling on Apr 10, 2011 20:03:32 GMT -6
Thanks for the prompt answer Dubeers!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2011 20:15:31 GMT -6
You're welcome. We're gamers, just like you! I understand your excitement ... heck, I'm writing the thing and I can't wait to see it in print too!
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