idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Oct 16, 2012 8:44:57 GMT -6
Forgive my ignorance guys, I try to find as much as I can through searches and google but without having an actual "Holme's Basic Set", I'm afraid I don't understand what is meant by "Perilous Mazes will allow you to "play Delving Deeper in a very Holmes-like way"
Can anyone tell me what this might consist of? I did play the Metzer Basic Set a few times but even that I don't recall al the ins and outs of as that was 30 years ago.
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Post by ravenheart87 on Oct 22, 2012 11:24:04 GMT -6
Well, info is quite scattered about this one, but as far as I remember, it contains DD in a single book and has some house rules. Don't know about the leve range though.
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Post by Zenopus on Oct 22, 2012 13:49:42 GMT -6
Idrahil,
I can probably answer this best since I am working on the Perilous Mazes edition for John. We went through several ideas for the format of this one, but after the last change to the Delving Deeper boxed set, it is essentially a player's guide to be used in place of Volume 1 of Delving Deeper, and thus together with Volumes 2-5 of DD. It will also have some info on Spells and Monsters to put it more in line with the options in Holmes Basic. So that is what is meant about playing DD in a "Holmes-like" fashion. It's about 90% written now, I'd guess.
Dr. Holmes edited the first Basic Set in 1977 from the rules of the original D&D set plus the Greyhawk Supplement. He was selective in what he used to keep the game simple, and also added/interpreted the rules in various places where the original rules were vague. So the Holmes set is a distinct breed of OD&D, which some of us remain fond of. The set was marketed as an intro to AD&D, and many folks who played AD&D in the late 70s/early 80s started with it, but it is actually closer in its rules to OD&D. The Perilous Mazes version aims to cover both the material of the original Holmes set (levels 1-3) and also higher levels.
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Oct 22, 2012 13:56:40 GMT -6
Thanks for the responses guys! It sounds really interesting and honestly seems like a great addition. I can't believe all that we're getting in the box. I'm sure my specific questions about what Greyhawk offers and suchs will be answered once I get the box or if Perilous Mazes is part of the PDFs John is sending out soon. Can't wait guys and thanks to all the efforts of everyone involved.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Nov 30, 2012 8:12:08 GMT -6
I'm looking forward to seeing this too as I've been rereading Greyhawk and wondering about how easily I could drop some of the alternate offerings there into DD in a "DD" way.
Need some help, John??
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 2, 2012 23:31:33 GMT -6
I'm still working on this, even if just a little bit each day. I'm getting close to a finished first draft. It's about 30 full-sized pages. Since Delving Deeper has most of the descriptions for Spells/Monster/Magic Items, I've taken a Reference Table approach for this.
In addition to the Greyhawk material that's already in Holmes, I've added a bit of extra material from Greyhawk, including Str/Dex bonuses and Paladin option for Fighters, and the bonuses for non-human thieves.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 2, 2012 23:40:02 GMT -6
Will Perilous Mazes include percentile thief skills?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 3, 2012 1:02:59 GMT -6
I'm also looking forward to this, although I don't intend to look at it until Blueholme is in the bag (to avoid unconscious derivation on my part). I expect it to be pretty comprehensive given who's writing it ...
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 3, 2012 8:04:15 GMT -6
Will Perilous Mazes include percentile thief skills? Yes. To avoid copying the exact tables in Holmes or Greyhawk, I've set each of the five main skills at an initial 15% (which is the average), and allow the thieves to adjust their skills by raising or lowering them by up to 10%. (Sort of like ability scores, but on an exact equivalence). This can be used to recreate the exact Holmes percentages if the player desires, or a slightly different mix. So it's broader but encompasses the Holmes rules.
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Post by ravenheart87 on Dec 3, 2012 8:10:34 GMT -6
Oh no, rules for minimal character customization? What's next, you're going to add feats? Good idea by the way. I might even mix which skill checks remain d6 and which ones become percentile.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 11:06:16 GMT -6
Oh no, rules for minimal character customization? What's next, you're going to add feats? (chuckle)
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 3, 2012 12:17:57 GMT -6
Actually, Holmes uses 3d6 ability checks in his 1981 book, and calls them feats! I've included them as an option for resolving actions not specified in the rules where there is a chance of failure.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 5, 2012 11:11:26 GMT -6
I'm still working on this, even if just a little bit each day. I'm getting close to a finished first draft. I’m confused. The BHP website here states that “Perilous Mazes” will be included in the Delving Deeper boxed set. And John Adams just stated here that the boxed set will be shipped out on Monday. How are you not done?
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Post by mightycthulhu on Dec 5, 2012 11:54:49 GMT -6
...And John Adams just stated here that the boxed set will be shipped out on Monday. How are you not done? what John Adams actually said was: Which is subtly different from saying that they will be shipped Monday. A bit nit-picky, but I don't think John has promised to ship them Monday. Not in that posting at any rate.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Dec 5, 2012 12:17:45 GMT -6
My guess was that a printed edition would be mailed separately.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Dec 5, 2012 12:19:12 GMT -6
Perilous Mazes and the Alchemical Symmetry booklets (playing DD in a Swords and Wizardry:WB way) will ship later than the boxes sets to everyone who has pre-ordered a boxed set. You can only get so much in a box and I have not finalized if PM will be full-sized or digest yet. I posted on my blog about this back in April, but that is too far back for anyone but me to remember. The good thing is that the boxed sets are shipping Monday and another gift will magically arrive just as soon as Zach and I can finalize it. Like so many things in this project, things changed and took too long and it is nearly all my fault.
That said, I think Simon, Cameron and Dave have put together a great emulation of the 3LBBs.
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Post by legopaidi on Dec 5, 2012 13:34:31 GMT -6
Wow another gift? ? What is it? What is it?
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Dec 5, 2012 14:45:58 GMT -6
Wow another gift? ? What is it? What is it? I meant that Perilous Mazes and Alchemical Symmetry will be shipping to pre-orders at a later date. I just haven't had the time to focus on them yet. Once the boxed are out, I can give them the attention they need. I am operating on very little sleep today.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 13, 2012 11:14:31 GMT -6
the boxed sets are shipping Monday Any news?
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 13, 2012 20:23:35 GMT -6
I keep checking my mailbox ... nothing.
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Dec 13, 2012 20:37:48 GMT -6
The BHP press broke down over the weekend (I posted it on the BHP Facebook site) but I got it back in operation yesterday. It won't be long now. Man, I had forgotten just how much hands-on work these boxed set require. This may be my last Boxed Set for a long time.
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Post by mgtremaine on Dec 14, 2012 10:56:35 GMT -6
So...... Early next week shipping? Maybe? It's look pretty tight for x-mas.
-Mike
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Post by Haldo Bramwise on Dec 14, 2012 14:08:40 GMT -6
So...... Early next week shipping? Maybe? It's look pretty tight for x-mas. -Mike Yes. Most of them should ship by Monday. I am trying to get them ready quicker, but I make each booklet by hand and that takes time. And each box contains a number of booklets.
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 25, 2013 15:25:31 GMT -6
An update about "Perilous Mazes": After some recent discussion with John and Simon, I've decided that what I am working on will be released as an independent OGL Holmes expansion rather than as part of the "Delving Deeper" line. It will be short (~40 pages) and reference table heavy in the manner of the JG Ready Ref sheets. As "Perilous Mazes" was not a title of my own, the working title is now "Holmes Ref". It will serve as a Holmes expansion, which I hope will re-released on pdf soon, or be usable on it own if you already familiar with the game, much as you can mostly play OD&D using just the Ready Ref sheets. It will also still be generally usable as a supplement to play Delving Deeper (or OD&D) in Holmes-like fashion, but won't make specific reference to it. I actually won't have to make a huge change to the text, as from the start I used my own words and tables rather than those of Delving Deeper, and just had references pointing to Delving Deeper for fuller descriptions of certain material. I did this with the goal of keeping it interesting (hopefully) to readers who already have Delving Deeper, but as a result it is missing a lot of specific features that make "Delving Deeper" what it is. I talked to John on the phone about this on Saturday, after sending him a draft of what I have right now, and he is fine with it. He is still planning to provide a hard copy of what I'm working on to the purchasers of his boxed set. I'm expecting it will still take me at least a month or two more of work to finish. I have about 34 pages of content right now and the remaining work is to mostly finish up particular tables. As a preview of the format, one page of Holmes Ref will include the One Hit Point Monsters sheet that I've released previously.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Mar 25, 2013 18:13:00 GMT -6
An update about "Perilous Mazes": After some recent discussion with John and Simon, I've decided that what I am working on will be released as an independent OGL Holmes expansion rather than as part of the "Delving Deeper" line. It will be short (~40 pages) and reference table heavy in the manner of the JG Ready Ref sheets. As "Perilous Mazes" was not a title of my own, the working title is now "Holmes Ref". It will serve as a Holmes expansion, which I hope will re-released on pdf soon, or be usable on it own if you already familiar with the game, much as you can mostly play OD&D using just the Ready Ref sheets. It will also still be generally usable as a supplement to play Delving Deeper (or OD&D) in Holmes-like fashion, but won't make specific reference to it. I actually won't have to make a huge change to the text, as from the start I used my own words and tables rather than those of Delving Deeper, and just had references pointing to Delving Deeper for fuller descriptions of certain material. I did this with the goal of keeping it interesting (hopefully) to readers who already have Delving Deeper, but as a result it is missing a lot of specific features that make "Delving Deeper" what it is. I talked to John on the phone about this on Saturday, after sending him a draft of what I have right now, and he is fine with it. He is still planning to provide a hard copy of what I'm working on to the purchasers of his boxed set. I'm expecting it will still take me at least a month or two more of work to finish. I have about 34 pages of content right now and the remaining work is to mostly finish up particular tables. As a preview of the format, one page of Holmes Ref will include the One Hit Point Monsters sheet that I've released previously. I'm fine with this! I assume we'll get the PDF before we get the printed edition? Looking forward to it!
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 25, 2013 19:14:06 GMT -6
Yes. And I intend to release a final draft of the pdf for perusal before any print version is made, to (hopefully) reduce the number of typos & omissions.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 25, 2013 21:10:06 GMT -6
I presume then that this will make it usable with just about any basic set including Moldvay, Mentzer, OSRIC, LL, etc.?
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 26, 2013 21:29:45 GMT -6
Yes, in the sense that all D&D up to 2E is pretty much compatible with each other. The details will be closest to Holmes + OD&D.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 26, 2013 22:17:19 GMT -6
In my imagination, it would be mechanically closest to Delving Deeper, yet would occasionally refer the reader to the OLD SCHOOL REFERENCE AND INDEX COMPILATION for “the more complete rules.”
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 28, 2013 7:31:45 GMT -6
Good one, Falconer. I'll leave any Delving Deeper-specific version to Simon now. That said, I will be taking the lead of TSR and adding more AD&D spells to Holmes Ref, with twenty spells per level. I don't want to clutter up the Delving Deeper forum anymore with discussion of Holmes Ref, so I've created a new thread for it over in the Other Editions and Simulacrum Games forum.
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