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Post by mgtremaine on Feb 24, 2013 13:44:28 GMT -6
Rob, I was wondering if you had any tales of puddings or oozes from your games, as a player or DM. [Anyone else feel free to re-tell as well.] I found your old blog post on the origins here lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2009/03/origin-of-black-pudding-roots-in-ca.html which was a good read. The reason I ask is that I have recently, and some would say finally, used Black Puddings to some success. But I confess that as a much younger DM I failed to ever truly get the right feeling, setting, or effect from these strange creatures. It doesn't help when the players know what it is or what to do. Leaving only the "green slime trap" or other gotcha actions to use. -Mike
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Post by snorri on Feb 24, 2013 14:37:42 GMT -6
I'm fond of these ones. I remember an escape in a long, long tunnel. Then, the PCs feel they had a gelatinous cube pusruing them. And another one came in front. Caught between two cubes without escape....
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Feb 24, 2013 14:58:13 GMT -6
Hi Mike. Yes. I have since then concluded that the influence for all this matter "most probably" derives from the camp movie, "The Blob." The CAS point is still potent, of course, as EGG had to be aware of Smith. Lin Carter mentioned him in all of the introductions to HPL fiction (Ballantine Fantasy), almost always and as a relation to the "Big Three" of that time. As well, EGG received the Arkham Sampler which I read through more than once; and there was no missing CAS in the titles or announcements there. The truth will never be known, so my best guess is that it derives from a "signal" source, which would be TV/Movies (in this case, The Blob), where a lot of inspirations for monsters and such derived from for both of us: lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2010/10/taking-d-back-to-its-future-level-part.htmlStories on such. I will relate one that occurred rather early and point you to another that EGG experienced in my game. The first was very early, like level 3 for all of us (Robilar, Tenser, Terik). I do not recall all of the particulars, but it was a random encounter. So it wasn't unique in placement or use, but it did not have to be, as we had never encountered it previously. EGG noted that there was something moving up ahead and so we stopped to observe its direction and speed. It was described in a few terms as "blob-like," dark, undulating (or similar), which propelled us into a concerned silence as we drew weapons or readied spells. Upon nearing us the melee commenced, with it being now described as a black amorphous mass which had no apparent appendages, like a black half-sphere. It crawled up one of our legs (Terik's I believe) and did damage of the burning quality, dissolving the flesh (though this was an abstracted view, as damage was to be defined as "avoiding blows" until you could not avoid them anymore). We chopped it and scored a hit, shouting in victory as we did so! Nope! Instead we were told the thing was now split into two unequal parts, both moving and attacking. At that point--being informed strategists all--we ran away... Gary chuckled later and asked us how we'd liked the Black Pudding (new monster), which I thereafter referred to (years later) as the "DM's Dessert". I was to get even with him on this score in its use (at least at first, that is); and that tale was recounted by him in UoaSB in Dragon #289 (November 2001) Lesson #3: How to Train a Black Pudding - If You Can't Stand the Heat... This recounts Mordenkainen's adventure(s) into Castle El Raja Key (where he discovered Bigby) and his multiple run-ins with the same BP. About: "It doesn't help when the players know what it is or what to do."... Easily dealt with. Make new monsters or tweak the old ones in specific ways which subtly change expectations by reaction. For a simple example, EGG & I would tweak ogres (they were of a greater gene pool, drank a magical elixir, or were of a different breed, etc), giving them more than 4HD. When confident know-it-alls (i.e., rule book "memorizers") then cast sleep spells, the reactions were not as expected. Keep 'em at the edge and guessing, this from the beginning and don't let up on that for an instant. If you do they will take everything for granted and everything will become the same, and that is not what maintains the enchantment that led us into the "fantasy" to begin with. Rob
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Feb 24, 2013 15:18:14 GMT -6
I'm fond of these ones. I remember an escape in a long, long tunnel. Then, the PCs feel they had a gelatinous cube pusruing them. And another one came in front. Caught between two cubes without escape.... "Stuck in the Middle With Yooze"
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Post by talysman on Feb 24, 2013 19:40:06 GMT -6
Upon nearing us the melee commenced, with it being now described as a black amorphous mass which had no apparent appendages, like a black half-circle. It crawled up one of our legs (Terik's I believe) and did damage of the burning quality, dissolving the flesh (though this was an abstracted view, as damage was to be defined as "avoiding blows" until you could not avoid them anymore). Does this mean that the black pudding rolled standard attack rolls? I remember a debate on a blog about whether the wording in M&T implied that puddings just rolled towards and engulfed, without requiring an attack roll. This would clear up that question... I've always figured the pudding was inspired by "The Blob", but wondered if green slime was inspired by the movie of the same name... especially since the slime eventually sprouted monsters that looked remarkably like ropers...
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Post by mgtremaine on Feb 24, 2013 20:12:30 GMT -6
Rob, I love it! I can see Robilar, Tenser and Terik having the "what the heck!" moment. That is one of the attributes I really feel belongs with these creatures. The weirdness, the what is it, what do we do now reaction.... Running is good. Make new monsters or tweak the old ones in specific ways which subtly change expectations by reaction. You of course went right to heart of the matter. The reason why I brought this up was that I had really enjoyed 2 recent uses of these Iconic monster as DM. In the first case the Black Pudding was 20HD so it was just massive and powerful. The party who knew exactly what to do, did their best and came up short. They threw Flame Strike, Burning Hands and all the oil they had, to little discernible effect. On the beast bubbled and rolled, and in that moment I got the FEAR LOOK [the Other Attribute I think belongs to these beast]. The group of very experience players was suddenly at a loss, they ran. They spent 30mins trying to figure how to get around this thing, because they had to get to the tunnels beyond it. Finally the Dwarven Rogue/Wizard decided to burn his Wand of Scorching Ray on a step by step battle with the thing. It took 16 Charges to bring it down, and he had only 3 charges left at the end, it was heroic and costly to them. The ruins of the blob were strewn across 300feet of tunnels and best of all the Party had no interest in walking on any part the thing had touched. As a DM it was perfect. The second time was using White Puddings from EGG G2. My son has been running Solo threw this classic series. Unexpectedly he climb to the buttom of the Rift from the start and his first encounter was with these. He charged up on his Giant Lizard and took a full swing at it and blup it split in two and burned his leg. "Oh NO", it was perfect, he had known what a Black Pudding was but a White Pudding tricked him. He didn't have the an easy solution and had to fight the thing the hard way, he took way more damage and lost some equipment to it. In each case I really enjoyed the elaborate descriptions of movement, animal reaction, and well general blobby weirdness. -Mike PS - I'll track down Dragon #289 I want to read that. I stop getting them some where near 200.
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Feb 24, 2013 20:40:43 GMT -6
Upon nearing us the melee commenced, with it being now described as a black amorphous mass which had no apparent appendages, like a black half-circle. It crawled up one of our legs (Terik's I believe) and did damage of the burning quality, dissolving the flesh (though this was an abstracted view, as damage was to be defined as "avoiding blows" until you could not avoid them anymore). Does this mean that the black pudding rolled standard attack rolls? I remember a debate on a blog about whether the wording in M&T implied that puddings just rolled towards and engulfed, without requiring an attack roll. This would clear up that question... I've always figured the pudding was inspired by "The Blob", but wondered if green slime was inspired by the movie of the same name... especially since the slime eventually sprouted monsters that looked remarkably like ropers... Yep. They attacked to hit. What EGG was describing was the method in which they accomplished that. But the jellies and oozes and puddings did have another aspect. If you walked over them/into them (DM adjudication in the latter and by relative location in the former), for instance, this was considered "an automatic hit." Robilar lost his boots of flying due to EGG having positioned a BP in a dug out part of a passage on the 6th level where it was laying flat and roughly smooshed down and even with the rest of the flooring. There would have been a roll on his part to determine whether I'd noticed this, IF, I hadn't been fleeing from another monster when I ran over this bio-trap. I took damage as I continued through it on the run and he ruled that since I was immersed in it that the boots had been destroyed (some complaining ensued on my part, but to no avail, as the destruction was automatic). Since some of these things don't move (like yellow mold), or move real slowly, DMs have to be pretty creative in getting them into use in the game environment.
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Feb 24, 2013 20:51:35 GMT -6
Rob, I love it! I can see Robilar, Tenser and Terik having the "what the heck!" moment. That is one of the attributes I really feel belongs with these creatures. The weirdness, the what is it, what do we do now reaction.... Running is good. Make new monsters or tweak the old ones in specific ways which subtly change expectations by reaction. You of course went right to heart of the matter. The reason why I brought this up was that I had really enjoyed 2 recent uses of these Iconic monster as DM. In the first case the Black Pudding was 20HD so it was just massive and powerful. The party who knew exactly what to do, did their best and came up short. They threw Flame Strike, Burning Hands and all the oil they had, to little discernible effect. On the beast bubbled and rolled, and in that moment I got the FEAR LOOK [the Other Attribute I think belongs to these beast]. The group of very experience players was suddenly at a loss, they ran. They spent 30mins trying to figure how to get around this thing, because they had to get to the tunnels beyond it. Finally the Dwarven Rogue/Wizard decided to burn his Wand of Scorching Ray on a step by step battle with the thing. It took 16 Charges to bring it down, and he had only 3 charges left at the end, it was heroic and costly to them. The ruins of the blob were strewn across 300feet of tunnels and best of all the Party had no interest in walking on any part the thing had touched. As a DM it was perfect. The second time was using White Puddings from EGG G2. My son has been running Solo threw this classic series. Unexpectedly he climb to the buttom of the Rift from the start and his first encounter was with these. He charged up on his Giant Lizard and took a full swing at it and blup it split in two and burned his leg. "Oh NO", it was perfect, he had known what a Black Pudding was but a White Pudding tricked him. He didn't have the an easy solution and had to fight the thing the hard way, he took way more damage and lost some equipment to it. In each case I really enjoyed the elaborate descriptions of movement, animal reaction, and well general blobby weirdness. -Mike PS - I'll track down Dragon #289 I want to read that. I stop getting them some where near 200. Great stories, Mike. Nothing like creating these in interchange and, IMO, from homebrew, where they take upon a higher pitch. Good luck with tracking down that issue. It shouldn't be hard to find. Check out Grodog's Greyhawk site (just do a search for the URL) for a complete synopisis of each of Gary's UoaSB articles, including the two I contributed. Rob
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