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Post by fullerton on Nov 27, 2012 16:06:13 GMT -6
I really believe that if one just coached folks through the campaign name level game and let them wallow around without undue pressure, more as a teaching/learning experience, that this would be a great way to integrate the expanding matter overall. ... There's still adventuring groups in this mode, so they would get used to high level play while learning about the world and how to interact with it at levels beyond adventure, too. If desired, the group could rationalize this approach (in terms of verisimilitude) with the assumption that the PCs were newly elevated demigods, perhaps unknowing agents of chaos brought to enact random and significant change through naiveté, or that the planet (and society) as a whole is in some kind of primordial state.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 16:28:14 GMT -6
I had a 10th level character, but he mostly just hung out at the inn talking about what's wrong with 1st level characters these days. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 27, 2012 16:43:03 GMT -6
Yackitty-Yack. Don't talk back. Just hand me a six-pack... I've posted way too much and am falling behind >> must chase cheese, stay ahead in rat race, must get pass GO!<<. American ratio of energy vs. mortality factor at its finest. Later on more (or less). ::Waves @ Gronan:: "WHYYYYYYY?" RJK
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 17:37:29 GMT -6
A pale, translucent spirit approaches... it is in obvious distress, arms waving, a look of anguish on its face, lips moving, screaming some silent cry over and over.... after several minutes, you realize it roams eternally, crying "BEER..... BEER.....BEER....."
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Nov 27, 2012 17:45:52 GMT -6
A pale, translucent spirit approaches... it is in obvious distress, arms waving, a look of anguish on its face, lips moving, screaming some silent cry over and over.... after several minutes, you realize it roams eternally, crying "BEER..... BEER.....BEER....." If I had a pretty penny, I'd gladly trade it for a spot at "you'ze guyzes" game table. I'd even make sure it was stocked with the proper stouts and porters. Hell, I wouldn't even have to play. I'd just watch, listen, and drink. [slurps from his "Irished" coffee mug....]
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 27, 2012 19:19:21 GMT -6
I really believe that if one just coached folks through the campaign name level game and let them wallow around without undue pressure, more as a teaching/learning experience, that this would be a great way to integrate the expanding matter overall. ... There's still adventuring groups in this mode, so they would get used to high level play while learning about the world and how to interact with it at levels beyond adventure, too. If desired, the group could rationalize this approach (in terms of verisimilitude) with the assumption that the PCs were newly elevated demigods, perhaps unknowing agents of chaos brought to enact random and significant change through naiveté, or that the planet (and society) as a whole is in some kind of primordial state. All it takes is a good story, a few hooks and a tempting what-if? We actually played numerous campaign play arcs outside our shared campaign setting, one of which, as I informed Ghul, was set in outer space and everyone started as god-like beings. I provided a star map for basing and movement purposes. The whole involved investigation of strange occurrences/invasions in their known spheres, intrigue, politics, and out and out adventure. One of the players asked me: "How do we move?" I said while gesturing to the map: "Just point." Joe Goodfellow also ran a god level game based on Zelazny's "Nine Princes in Amber." I played Corwin. My brother made a rules subset he termed "Robin Hood" and we all played as name levels in his engrossing campaign which he then expanded to the Zothar Empire using the same rules. Lots of adventures and campaign play in that, too. I could go on with the list, but the fact remains, we were experimenting with the RPG range in ways then which, i hate to say, makes a lot of the stuff from today look like Gronan Spirits... That's not meant to slight anyone, really. But I must still ask: Where are the ranges, the pushing of the boundaries and the experimentation? Seriously, if they are out there in game forms, I want to know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 19:25:11 GMT -6
Rob, in some ways it's still happening, but tastes have changed. There seem to be some experimental games but they are often quite narrow in theme. For instance there's a game called 'Sorceror' which people have said is well done; sorcerors gain power by binding demons but lose humanity. The game is about one single question... 'how much humanity will you trade for power?' Mildly interesting to me, but not enough to sustain play.
I blame postmodernism myself. Of course, I blame postmodernism for everything from Hollywood recycling old movie ideas to my grey hair.
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 27, 2012 19:36:15 GMT -6
Yes. But tastes? Don't know about that. Quite frankly it sounds like the lowest common denominator occurred, as it did with the rest of society. So expanding on imaginative concepts ended and rooted somewhere with the collective Borg. Thus your pm analogy is better served.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 27, 2012 20:56:48 GMT -6
D&D exists on a different frequency than modern entertainment does. It's slow and it is intense (it requires a higher level of focus and attentiveness than most entertainment). It's hard to get people into a room together to have a true conversation without cell phones coming out and ear buds going in. We can call out the TV, but in some ways the internet is even worse. The internet caters even more to individualistic instant gratification than anything. Every parent should deny their child a video game system until they've played a D&D character up through name level!
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 27, 2012 21:00:40 GMT -6
Some interesting exchanges here today. Massive kudos to SMKSensei for ditching the TV. I think that is a very important, very awesome move for a family to make. About attention span, exploration, education, young people (subjects of this conversation here), I think there are good points. Honestly I've had the experience lately of trying to find players for my own game, and most people I talk to are utterly turned off by the idea. I think it's two things, not in order of importance; 1) there is the image of the RPG gamer... too nerdy even in this age of video game nerd acceptance, and 2) why play a game where we have to get out pencils, dice, and take turns describing in boring old language what is happening when I could put on Call of Duty Modern Warfare? In 1981 when Moldvay came out (let alone 1974 with original, or whenever Holmes came out), I think it was more clear that the game offered something that didn't have a lot of competition. Now TTRPG's are competing with all kinds of flashy stuff. I don't think it bodes well at all for the hobby. It's a hard sell. And that's not even counting the logistical problems of getting a handful of people together regularly to play, or even the upfront investment of time (more or less for different people and styles) in creating a campaign environment or even just prepping existing (commercial) material. D&D exists on a different frequency than modern entertainment does. It's slow and it is intense (it requires a higher level of focus and attentiveness than most entertainment). It's hard to get people into a room together to have a true conversation without cell phones coming out and ear buds going in. We can call out the TV, but in some ways the internet is even worse. The internet caters even more to individualistic instant gratification than anything. One thing I love about the original D&D art more than Erol Otus artwork and the like is that it looks like something I could do. The artwork is inviting - "come, join in this fun hobby and create something cool and imaginative." Even the Erol Otus stuff - as friggin awesome as it is - says "behold this great work by an expert." And the Moldvay game is clean and streamlined and maybe less inviting to the tinkering mindset. But with the oldest stuff there is a certain wall there that you have to get over. You have to stop seeing the art as crappy amateur work and start seeing it as an invitation to create. You have to stop seeing the game as a refined engine and more like an example of how you can make your own game if you want to. This will appeal to creative types, but most people I encounter would rather have their entertainment handed to them. Why learn to play music when you can hear experts doing it far better than you at the click of a button? Why walk or cycle when you can sit down and depress a pedal and move 60mph to the destination? Why cook your own food with your own recipes when you can get a premade meal in a box that takes 5 minutes to warm up? I really do think that modern games, entertainment, music, sports, etc, have the effect of making people feel like passive spectators. I think it is very disempowering. I read a fine article on irony and the fact that we live in an ironic age, an age in which folks have given up before even trying. The way people say "like" before every word betrays a lack of conviction. Our common language is superfluous in the extreme. I might be bitter in part because I struggle to no avail to have even the most basic conversations with my teenage step kids (one 16 and one 19) and I realize that meaningful conversation is just not something that people appreciate. The more deep, the more personal, the more serious, the less folks are interested, generally speaking (I treasure the handful of special friendships I have where this is not the case). Bottom line - Mike and Rob, I share your frustration. The best I can do is try to find a few folks who enjoy similar stuff and play with them. The wider hobby? I think it will dwindle even more, but probably never go away completely. It's like jazz or classical - it's a little quirky or weird, but there will always be a demand for it outside the mainstream. And all that said, I don't think Conan would be more than 10th level, and 10th level is high enough for my tastes. I'm not saying I'd never try more than that, but to me, 1 - 10 is where it's at. I can only appreciate these sentiments for the actual truths that they expose. "Meaningful" is key to everything. Establishing what that might mean in different personal contexts will vary tremendously. Ironic? Perhaps. There is a certain latent sadness to it all. A loss before you even begin, as you noted. To me that strikes the deepest human chord and perhaps ironic just begins to describe that descent which ends, where? Are we back to Kant and Being and Nothingness? The society does seem to be embracing a spreading nihilism these days. Picasso once said: "Every child is an artist. The trouble is remaining one as they grow up." So as you said, we are left with influencing what we can within the territory allowed and letting hope maintain the rest. Thanks for the enlivening post. Rob
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 27, 2012 21:06:16 GMT -6
D&D exists on a different frequency than modern entertainment does. It's slow and it is intense (it requires a higher level of focus and attentiveness than most entertainment). It's hard to get people into a room together to have a true conversation without cell phones coming out and ear buds going in. We can call out the TV, but in some ways the internet is even worse. The internet caters even more to individualistic instant gratification than anything. Every parent should deny their child a video game system until they've played a D&D character up through name level! Sounds good. How would all of the peer pressure be handled (direct or indirect)? It's huge with kids, being with the in group and the in thing, that online game, this gizmo, etc. I believe it starts before that age, actually. That direction is best established very early and maintained very closely up until the teen years, at which time your chickens come home to roost or they don't.
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Post by scottyg on Nov 27, 2012 21:10:48 GMT -6
I've had one player start the process of building a stronghold. A 12th level magic-user. Him and his henchmen ended up being chased out of the territory by the monsters that were living there. He did manage to pick up 5 hippogriff eggs/young hippogriffs while in the wilderness. He was planning on recruiting some troops and making another go of it, but he was persuaded to go on an adventure by another player, a 10th level cleric. They're the core of the party I am DMing now. They're both planning on strongholds when the current adventure ends.
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 27, 2012 21:25:16 GMT -6
I've had one player start the process of building a stronghold. A 12th level magic-user. Him and his henchmen ended up being chased out of the territory by the monsters that were living there. He did manage to pick up 5 hippogriff eggs/young hippogriffs while in the wilderness. He was planning on recruiting some troops and making another go of it, but he was persuaded to go on an adventure by another player, a 10th level cleric. They're the core of the party I am DMing now. They're both planning on strongholds when the current adventure ends. Get them DMing in this style ASAP! Spread it like a balm from the gods of enlightenment! I do not joke. These players of yours, and those like them, are the salvation for the out-of-the-box imaginative mind. And please, Scotty, do keep me/us here informed about everyone's progress. I find it very positive to say the least. Thanks! And relay my encouragements to your players as well. Rob
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Post by tacojohn4547 on Nov 27, 2012 21:29:03 GMT -6
All it takes is a good story, a few hooks and a tempting what-if? We actually played numerous campaign play arcs outside our shared campaign setting, one of which, as I informed Ghul, was set in outer space and everyone started as god-like beings. I provided a star map for basing and movement purposes. The whole involved investigation of strange occurrences/invasions in their known spheres, intrigue, politics, and out and out adventure. One of the players asked me: "How do we move?" I said while gesturing to the map: "Just point." Joe Goodfellow also ran a god level game based on Zelazny's "Nine Princes in Amber." I played Corwin. My brother made a rules subset he termed "Robin Hood" and we all played as name levels in his engrossing campaign which he then expanded to the Zothar Empire using the same rules. Lots of adventures and campaign play in that, too. I could go on with the list, but the fact remains, we were experimenting with the RPG range in ways then which, i hate to say, makes a lot of the stuff from today look like Gronan Spirits... That's not meant to slight anyone, really. But I must still ask: Where are the ranges, the pushing of the boundaries and the experimentation? Seriously, if they are out there in game forms, I want to know. Following up on your comments above, Rob, as well as your suggestions upthread, over the years I've planted no less than 5 adventure seeds into our Wilderlands campaign to lure the wily-eyed characters of both the primary group (ie, the A-Team characters) and the secondary group (ie, the B-Team characters) to an exciting and dangerous extra-planar locale, with which you are most familiar - the fabled City of Brass: 1) a powerful magic item "dropped" by a minion of Set which fled the prime material by way of a planar portal with the party hot on his heels; 2) a magical tome, formerly in the possession of an evil lich-like entity, which initially causes confusion and nausea, then disorientation and loss of motor skills, and finally whisks the unsuspecting character off to the famous home plane of the efreet; (this tome is cursed, naturally...); 3) the name and contact location of a suitable expert craftsman, or weapons artisan, whom the party patriarch seeks for the unsurprising purpose of commissioning a highly coveted weapon of mass destruction (WMD); 4) a second powerful magic item, unceremoniously included in the modest treasure haul of an evil nemesis that was vanquished by the party; this item of power could single handedly lead to a whole series of adventures based on the Plane of Fire and around the City of Brass; 5) a campaign-spanning theme and arch-nemesis which, through reoccurring events and reappearing minions, could quite literally lead the party of evil-bashing adventurers to the very gates of the City of Brass itself, if only they would "see" the threads and themes and recurrences that connect the various parts (adventures and seemingly unconnected quests) together. So far, the party has resisted the lure presented in the various adventure seeds. But it may soon be time to 'raise the stakes' and convince them they "need" to visit the fabled City of of the Efreet!
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 27, 2012 22:27:45 GMT -6
Sounds great. You should get my near complete MS for CoB (90, 000 words) from Grodog rather than using the unfortunate composite by Kenzer. Just if you wish to remain pure Kuntzian. It was my baby they threw out with the bathwater... All of your rumors and story weaving particulars smack of the way I did it BitD. Our PCs were much more gullible (or greedy, In Ward's case) then. Plus, as I've noted, they really wanted to experience new places and stuff associated with them. Bless them for that. For it allowed all of the associated imaginations to unplug and stay unleashed for a good 5 years in Greyhawk and then onward into Kalibruhn, where it even became more immersive. Continued good luck with those adventures TJ! Rob
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Post by tacojohn4547 on Nov 27, 2012 22:38:48 GMT -6
Sounds great. You should get my near complete MS for CoB (90, 000 words) from Grodog rather than using the unfortunate composite by Kenzer. Just if you wish to remain pure Kuntzian. It was my baby they threw out with the bathwater... All of your rumors and story weaving particulars smack of the way I did it BitD. Our PCs were much more gullible (or greedy, In Ward's case) then. Plus, as I've noted, they really wanted to experience new places and stuff associated with them. Bless them for that. For it allowed all of the associated imaginations to unplug and stay unleashed for a good 5 years in Greyhawk and then onward into Kalibruhn, where it even became more immersive. Continued good luck with those adventures TJ! Rob Thanks for the good words, Rob! And thanks for suggesting I get a copy of your ALL-KUNTZIAN CoB manuscript from Grodog. I will do that straightaway and see how best to incorporate it into the Brass that will be my players undoing!!
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Post by scottyg on Nov 28, 2012 7:49:32 GMT -6
I've had one player start the process of building a stronghold. A 12th level magic-user. Him and his henchmen ended up being chased out of the territory by the monsters that were living there. He did manage to pick up 5 hippogriff eggs/young hippogriffs while in the wilderness. He was planning on recruiting some troops and making another go of it, but he was persuaded to go on an adventure by another player, a 10th level cleric. They're the core of the party I am DMing now. They're both planning on strongholds when the current adventure ends. Get them DMing in this style ASAP! Spread it like a balm from the gods of enlightenment! I do not joke. These players of yours, and those like them, are the salvation for the out-of-the-box imaginative mind. And please, Scotty, do keep me/us here informed about everyone's progress. I find it very positive to say the least. Thanks! And relay my encouragements to your players as well. Rob Thanks, Rob. There was a practical side to all of the questions I asked you and Gary through the years. You, Gary, Ernie, Gronan, etc. being online, and willing to answer questions, has done a lot to help break out of that party-mindset, story-driven, "encounter-to next-enounter model" that seemed to have become the norm. "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus" Scott
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Nov 28, 2012 10:33:39 GMT -6
AH yes, then a lot, perhaps not by you, became the nickel-inserted-for-answer-about-rules type of inquiry. You know my stance on that one, as well as EGG's. Gary's is embodied in a famous quote, though I will have to paraphrase from memory (and hopefully someone here will post the actual quote that I believe he uttered at ENWorld): "Don't tell the DMs this secret, but they do not actually need the rules." I bet people stared glassy-eyed at that one and scratched their heads. I wonder if anyone had any follow up questions to it? But I will summarize it by way of another example I use as a footnote in a book I suspended writing to take to three 3 Projects now at hand:
"'3 One striking example comes to mind, such as when Gary Gygax was judging at a convention in 1980. He often used our open form process of adjudicating game situations. This dismayed a player and he called Gary out on it saying that was not the process delineated by the rules. Gary rebuffed him, saying, “I’m the DM. I make the rules.”'"
Back to having one's imagination unleashed (and taking into account your ending sentence), I will refer back to Picasso's quote up-thread. Breaking it down, it literally means that we are all born creative and lose this through societal pressures to conform to non-creative cycles (just push the button, do not think about why, or how, etc). Thus the trouble lies in retaining it through life, or, in rediscovering it later. Once you rediscover how it is to be a kid again with all of the adult experiences now informing that path, well, would one forsake this for the machine mind ever again?
In closing, two back-matter quotes from my book:
"Those who claim that not everyone is creative have in fact forgotten their own childhoods and through such negative statements are errantly assisting others to forget theirs."
"Consider children with all of their creative and wildly intuitive methods. They adjust to situations in their ever-changing sphere of play as suits their growing needs. They use democratic principles while defining and expanding upon the infinite territory of the mind. They engage with life full throttle while they are imitating it. They are inclusive, considering everything and everyone as appropriate to their spheres of imaginative thought. They are open to experimentation and change and are thus dynamic with their applied curiosities. “What if?” doesn’t take long to become “That’s what it is!” with children."
Keep going SG!
Rob
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Post by bestialwarlust on Dec 1, 2012 6:53:59 GMT -6
Sounds great. You should get my near complete MS for CoB (90, 000 words) from Grodog rather than using the unfortunate composite by Kenzer. Just if you wish to remain pure Kuntzian. It was my baby they threw out with the bathwater... Rob Is this something we can request from him? or do you plan on publishing something on the CoB in the future so you don't want this available to the public?
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 1, 2012 11:15:53 GMT -6
Sounds great. You should get my near complete MS for CoB (90, 000 words) from Grodog rather than using the unfortunate composite by Kenzer. Just if you wish to remain pure Kuntzian. It was my baby they threw out with the bathwater... Rob Is this something we can request from him? or do you plan on publishing something on the CoB in the future so you don't want this available to the public? Ah, in my exuberance I posted something to one of my publishers who is partnered with the other (That is, tacojohn and grodog both run Black Blade publishing and both live in the same city). I should have instead PMed him on this recommendation; and so you have my apologies BW as, no, my unpublished MS for City of Brass is not generally available. Due to complications revolving around its future editing in relation to what Kenzer printed of it (40,000 words) I deem it unlikely that it will ever be published unless we were to secure the rights for the printed composite from them. Rob
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Post by mgtremaine on Dec 1, 2012 11:20:31 GMT -6
Specifically, what is the highest level you've ever played? If you have not played, say, name level or beyond (10th level plus), then why? What has honestly constrained this sort of exploration of range in your RPG environment? I've been meaning to chime in on this but resisted because I knew it would turn into a long ramble that probably would make no sense .... Short Answer: As a player: 21st/16th Elven Fighter/Mage As DM: 31st Human Thief [whew that was easy] Long Answer [Or the long ramble I was trying to avoid]: I never totally understood the philosophy that gets posted on the boards about the "sweet spot" for gaming, or how system do not scale beyond level X and or the bad, wrong, fun sort judgements that come from peoples varied gaming experiences. I really think if you are having fun then you are doing something right. I started in 1979 in 6th grade, and from the get go it was a game of long campaigns and character building. Sure that first group which spanned only 3 until I moved, (9th grade), was lacking in creativity. We used lots of off the shelve products and pulled names and ideas from Tolkien and Moorcock. But we loved it! The Fighters became lords and built castles and cleared countrysides, the Wizard built towers and did research and the game was filled with both high and low level PC's. I remember running Inferno in this group for something like 8+ players and 20+ character. The memory that stands out is someone's cousin was there and brought a 23rd level bard who failed his save at the gates of hell and was gone. So sorry... The castle building was really interesting because it gave the PC the chance to crete his/her own little part of the world. In fact I spent so much effort on my Dwarven Fighters keep that when I started building my own world it was dropped in intact, Zorro II of Aregoth is now one of the Dwarven Kings famous through out the lands. [Zorro I his father was my first character who died in the very first adventure at the hands of berserkers.] See effort not wasted, we have history and stories that help shape the future. After I moved I was lucky enough to find another group, again my first character with them died in the first or second game. But then I rolled up Triadd of Chaos, who was run from 1983 until somewhere around 1994. When high levels were reached instead of building a keep and getting into politics the Chaotic Good/Neutral Elf just kept moving. Finding foes to defeat, magic to create, and dungeons to plunder. The gaming was over the top, artifacts dripping from the PC's and foes alike, but you know what. I was the most fun I've ever had with a game. You had to build magic items and research spells just to keep an edge while the power level of your foes grew and grew. Ah the good times.... So that's my long answer, high level play has and always will be the goal of a well run campaign for me. Sure some players will settle down and build keeps but the adventures do not have to end. The DM should always be willing to push the envelope of the rules to make it challenging for the players. After all good players are going to do everything they can to stay alive, and in those moments you get to see truly creative role-playing. -Mike
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2012 11:28:54 GMT -6
I really think if you are having fun then you are doing something right. It's difficult to argue with that! And, I agree!
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 1, 2012 11:47:15 GMT -6
One thing which seems to have differentiated my group(s) from others is that characters usually took over strongholds (castles, towers, dungeons, thieves guilds, what have you) rather than building their own. Nothing planned or thought out, but over decades of gaming this has been the norm in all groups I've played or refereed in. Weird now that I think of it.
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 1, 2012 13:28:51 GMT -6
Specifically, what is the highest level you've ever played? If you have not played, say, name level or beyond (10th level plus), then why? What has honestly constrained this sort of exploration of range in your RPG environment? I've been meaning to chime in on this but resisted because I knew it would turn into a long ramble that probably would make no sense .... Short Answer: As a player: 21st/16th Elven Fighter/Mage As DM: 31st Human Thief [whew that was easy] Long Answer [Or the long ramble I was trying to avoid]: I never totally understood the philosophy that gets posted on the boards about the "sweet spot" for gaming, or how system do not scale beyond level X and or the bad, wrong, fun sort judgements that come from peoples varied gaming experiences. I really think if you are having fun then you are doing something right. I started in 1979 in 6th grade, and from the get go it was a game of long campaigns and character building. Sure that first group which spanned only 3 until I moved, (9th grade), was lacking in creativity. We used lots of off the shelve products and pulled names and ideas from Tolkien and Moorcock. But we loved it! The Fighters became lords and built castles and cleared countrysides, the Wizard built towers and did research and the game was filled with both high and low level PC's. I remember running Inferno in this group for something like 8+ players and 20+ character. The memory that stands out is someone's cousin was there and brought a 23rd level bard who failed his save at the gates of hell and was gone. So sorry... The castle building was really interesting because it gave the PC the chance to crete his/her own little part of the world. In fact I spent so much effort on my Dwarven Fighters keep that when I started building my own world it was dropped in intact, Zorro II of Aregoth is now one of the Dwarven Kings famous through out the lands. [Zorro I his father was my first character who died in the very first adventure at the hands of berserkers.] See effort not wasted, we have history and stories that help shape the future. After I moved I was lucky enough to find another group, again my first character with them died in the first or second game. But then I rolled up Triadd of Chaos, who was run from 1983 until somewhere around 1994. When high levels were reached instead of building a keep and getting into politics the Chaotic Good/Neutral Elf just kept moving. Finding foes to defeat, magic to create, and dungeons to plunder. The gaming was over the top, artifacts dripping from the PC's and foes alike, but you know what. I was the most fun I've ever had with a game. You had to build magic items and research spells just to keep an edge while the power level of your foes grew and grew. Ah the good times.... So that's my long answer, high level play has and always will be the goal of a well run campaign for me. Sure some players will settle down and build keeps but the adventures do not have to end. The DM should always be willing to push the envelope of the rules to make it challenging for the players. After all good players are going to do everything they can to stay alive, and in those moments you get to see truly creative role-playing. -Mike Wow, what a great expose. This should be rewritten/codified into expanded parts that address specific implementation of this mindset via the game. IMO it is a mindset as you addressed right up front in "sweet spot" gaming. Not to be (overly) redundant, but this attitude is typical of the LGTSA 1973 forward. There were no limits for either TYPE of game or RANGE therein. Like any game, you want to keep some balance and we all understood that. Perhaps the concept of HOW to maintain balance is foreign or unpredictable to those who do not create adventures and only use premade ones (one of my biggest contention points as many of you may or may not have noticed). Most certainly, then, if the latter, then my consumer theory of "you are what you consume, thus you gravitate to what you are," would hold true in those cases. Thanks for chiming in! Keep going. And I will add that you would have fit in quite well with us in Lake Geneva BitD. Rob
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 1, 2012 13:34:21 GMT -6
I really think if you are having fun then you are doing something right. It's difficult to argue with that! And, I agree! ::Waves @ Mssr. Dubeers::
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 1, 2012 13:42:09 GMT -6
One thing which seems to have differentiated my group(s) from others is that characters usually took over strongholds (castles, towers, dungeons, thieves guilds, what have you) rather than building their own. Nothing planned or thought out, but over decades of gaming this has been the norm in all groups I've played or refereed in. Weird now that I think of it. Smart play. Let the others do the building for you, either literally or figuratively. On the literal level, Robilar, Terik and Tenser took over the first level of the 1st Castle Greyhawk and barracked troops and minions there and thus controlled access to/from the dungeons below. We remade the map due to many structural changes we implemented, which included a portcullis installed to block a major stairway. Thanks for the continued input, Vile! RJK
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 1, 2012 20:35:17 GMT -6
Thanks for the continued input, Vile! Always a pleasure - but I really need to lay off forum posting for the next 3 weeks! The deadline looms ...
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 1, 2012 20:52:32 GMT -6
I understand that! Good luck with it!
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Dec 2, 2012 6:30:48 GMT -6
I really think if you are having fun then you are doing something right. It's difficult to argue with that! And, I agree! Hear! Hear! And a clinkity clink-clink of mugs all around!
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Post by bestialwarlust on Dec 2, 2012 8:20:29 GMT -6
Is this something we can request from him? or do you plan on publishing something on the CoB in the future so you don't want this available to the public? Ah, in my exuberance I posted something to one of my publishers who is partnered with the other (That is, tacojohn and grodog both run Black Blade publishing and both live in the same city). I should have instead PMed him on this recommendation; and so you have my apologies BW as, no, my unpublished MS for City of Brass is not generally available. Due to complications revolving around its future editing in relation to what Kenzer printed of it (40,000 words) I deem it unlikely that it will ever be published unless we were to secure the rights for the printed composite from them. Rob No problem that's why I asked just in case.
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