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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 18, 2012 10:10:48 GMT -6
I'm re-reading THE HOBBIT and have FARMER GILES OF HAM on my "to do" list. This got me thinking about dragons.
To me, dragons are big winged reptiles that blast fire at things. Dragons hoard treasure and like to chat with people before eating them. Perhaps I'm biased because this is similar to Tolkien's dragons, but as long as I can recall this is the way I think of them.
A few weeks ago I was playing in a Next playtest and we encountered a dragon whose breath was acid. That just feels wrong to me. Same with dragons that shoot lightning or noxious gas or whatever.
Are there any literary sources that mention wacky dragons like the ones we find in D&D? The only ones I can think of are the fire-breathers.
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 18, 2012 10:23:07 GMT -6
I seem to remember reading about at least one poisonous dragon in pre-20th-century literature, but I can't recall the source now.
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Nov 18, 2012 10:52:41 GMT -6
The Golden Legend contains an early medieval depiction of the legend of St. George and the dragon. The dragon is described as having "venomed the people with his breath" ( www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/goldenlegend/GL-vol3-george.asp). It seems that the original view of dragons was as venomous creatures, akin to snakes of large size. The dragon in Beowulf, though, has fiery breath, if I recall correctly. |
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Post by llenlleawg on Nov 18, 2012 13:48:38 GMT -6
Fafnir, a dragon (who was originally a dwarf) from Norse mythology, was able to breathe poison, and so poisoned the land around his lair to protect his treasure. As Jonathan notes, poison is a key element to dragon lore, although so also is fire. If we think of the acid as "caustic poison", then black, green, and red dragons are reasonably good facsimiles of the lore. The white dragon breathing cold and the blue breathing lightning are, to my knowledge, pure D&D inventions. The former is perhaps more tolerable on analogy to breathing fire. Lightning is, I think, more of a stretch.
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Post by talysman on Nov 18, 2012 16:06:18 GMT -6
Moorcock's dragons seem to spit a flammable acid rather than breathe fire, which may have been the inspiration for the black dragon. They also are more like animals than genius non-humans, which is more like the dragons of lore than Tolkien's dragons.
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Post by tombowings on Nov 19, 2012 0:20:52 GMT -6
Fire to me is really the only type of breath weapon that works for me, too. Lightning breath is a little too godzilla and poison too reminiscent of my co-workers.
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Post by aher on Nov 19, 2012 0:45:23 GMT -6
Previously, I posted about some "wacky dragons" found in folklore, many of which don't breathe fire. Flood-spewing dragons: Painting with broad strokes, Greek, Hebrew and middle-eastern dragons (like Typhon, Python, and Leviathan) are malevolent sea serpents. "Drakon" in Greek means "sea serpent." Dragons in Indian (south asian) lore ("nagas") are modeled after cobras. They tend to be benoveolent water spirits, associated with rivers, lakes and seas. Similarly, dragons in the far east are associated with water, often clouds and storms rather than bodies of water. Far east dragons tend to be long, wingless, and four-legged, though some have bat wings. They are also shapeshifters. They tend toward benevolence, though some are malevolent. These water-associated "eastern" dragons spew floods (rather than fire) out of their mouths. For example, referring to the Great Red Dragon (equated with Satan and Leviathan), Revelation 12:15 says: "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." Poison-breathing dragons: The Wikipedia article entitled List of dragons in mythology and folklore has at least three examples of poison-breathing dragons. Quoting verbatim from that page: - Catalan dragon ("drac"): Catalan dragons are serpent-like creatures with two legs (rarely four) and, sometimes, a pair of wings. Their faces can resemble that of other animals, like lions or cattle. They have a burning breath. Their breath is also poisonous, the reason by which dracs are able to rot everything with their stench. A víbria is a female dragon.
- Asturian and Leonese dragons ("Cuélebre"): In Asturias and León mythology the Cuélebres are giant winged serpents, which live in caves where they guard treasures and kidnapped xanas. They can live for centuries and, when they grow really old, they use their wings to fly. Their breath is poisonous and they often kill cattle to eat. Leonese language term Cuelebre comes from Latin colŭbra, i.e., snake.
- Scandinavian & Germanic dragons ("Lindworm"): Lindworms are serpent-like dragons with either two or no legs. In Nordic and Germanic heraldry, the lindworm looks the same as a wyvern. As llenlleawg pointed out already, Fafnir was a lindworm. From the article on Fáfnir:
- Fáfnir also breathed poison into the land around him so no one would go near him and his treasure, wreaking terror in the hearts of the people.
- Fáfnir also blew poison into his path as it made his way to the stream.
Acid-spitting dragons: Meat-eating animals produce hydrochloric acid (HCl) in their stomachs, so it is not unreasonable to believe that a dragon could spit acid. A more tantalizing idea is that of a dragon with sulfuric acid (H 2SO 4) as its blood or gastric acid (like the Aliens in the Alien movie franchise). H 2SO 4 is much more corrosive than HCl, able to dissolve flesh, metals, and stone. It was known to the Sumerians and Islamic alchemists. Medieval European alchemists called it the "oil of vitriol." Teflon is the only material resistant to all concentrations of sulfuric acid at all temperatures, so an H 2SO 4-spitting dragon's digestive tract would likely be Teflon-coated. Lightning-emitting dragons: The ancients believed that we are able to see because we emit rays of light from our eyes. This is called emission theory. So it is understandable that some monsters of myth are able to shoot light rays, lightning bolts, or a death ray from their eyes. In native American mythology, the Thunderbird is a giant bird that shoots lightning bolts out of its eyes when it blinks. The Thunderbird also carries around glowing snakes, that become lightning bolts when dropped. The Proto-Indo-European root word of dragon, "derkesthai," means "to see clearly" or "the one with the deadly glance." This calls to mind the basilisk. The Sardinian (Italian) dragon, named "scultone" or "ascultone," had the power to kill human beings with its gaze. It lived in the bush and was immortal. In Japanese myth, the Raijū are giant creatures made out of lightning. In aboriginal Australian myth, a Lightning Snake is a serpent that dwells in heaven; when there's a storm, it falls to earth and rebounds, causing lightning. Fire-trailing dragons: Rather than breathing fire, Turkish dragons ("Ejderha") secrete flames from their tails, leaving a firey wake. They're described as wingless snakes. |
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Post by darkling on Nov 19, 2012 12:19:57 GMT -6
I think that when I first came to D&D I found it weird that dragons had wings. Hobbit aside, was it that common in folklore? I used to think of them more like the giant snakes or almost crocidillian.
I think that the other breath types probably originated as a natural, gamey extension of the system, sort of a way to subvert player expectations: e.g. once upon a time a party finds a way to fireproof themselves and gets a bit too comfy around dragons, their DM wants dragons to be scary again and all of a sudden the next dragon they are facing breathes poison.
Got to say that I have always liked ice breathing dragons though, I'm a sucker for elemental dualism.
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Post by llenlleawg on Nov 19, 2012 13:56:49 GMT -6
I think that when I first came to D&D I found it weird that dragons had wings. Hobbit aside, was it that common in folklore? I used to think of them more like the giant snakes or almost crocidillian. In Medieval European folklore, yes. Look at almost any Medieval image of a dragon and it is likely to have (bat-)wings. |
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Post by snorri on Nov 19, 2012 15:07:21 GMT -6
The fact, as for the cleric or many other issues when you saerch about "does is exist in mythos" or "what literacy sources", is that, 40 years later, D&D spreads among all literacy, cinema, comics, games, and son on. So D&D turned to be its own source.
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Post by talysman on Nov 19, 2012 17:46:53 GMT -6
Fire to me is really the only type of breath weapon that works for me, too. Lightning breath is a little too godzilla and poison too reminiscent of my co-workers. I think you mean King Ghidorah, not Godzilla. But that brings up an important point: I think all the dragon breath weapons and more besides are present in Japanese monster movies of the '60s. Godzilla = fire* Ghidorah = lightning smog monster = poison* Mothra = webs * also radiation I can't think of which monsters used cold or acid, but I know they were there... as well as some weirder breath weapons, because every giant monster had to have a unique attack. |
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Post by xerxez on Nov 19, 2012 17:57:46 GMT -6
I have to say that I like the diverse dragons of D&D and their unique breath weapons.
As a young DM I ran a good number of adventures once--almost a campaign within a campaign--where the characters hunted out lore of dragon kind for a wizard and gathering dragon relics and body parts of the various types for his magicks.
It was kind of neat getting into the good alignment dragons and seeing players of neutral or good alignment interact with them. I used Bahamut in several different gaming groups in the guise of an old man who sent the party on a quest and revealed his true form only after they had completed the quest. What fun those days!
I think the varying types were made up to offer variety!
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Post by blackbarn on Nov 19, 2012 19:45:28 GMT -6
I recall stories of "real" dragons from history/legend that had noxious or poisonous breath. About equal in number to stories of fire, if I recall correctly. It just depends what dragon legends you have read. Although I can relate to you not liking all the different breath weapon types, it is a trademark of D&D at this point. I always thought of dragons as green-scaled fire breathers before I encountered the D&D game, though I still do not like the idea of them talking or casting spells. Fire to me is really the only type of breath weapon that works for me, too. Lightning breath is a little too godzilla and poison too reminiscent of my co-workers. I think you mean King Ghidorah, not Godzilla. But that brings up an important point: I think all the dragon breath weapons and more besides are present in Japanese monster movies of the '60s. Godzilla = fire* Ghidorah = lightning smog monster = poison* Mothra = webs * also radiation I can't think of which monsters used cold or acid, but I know they were there... as well as some weirder breath weapons, because every giant monster had to have a unique attack. Interesting observation... and we know Dave Arneson reportedly liked monster movies and borrowed things from them for D&D. The idea of dragon types also originated in Blackmoor, didn't it? |
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Post by aher on Nov 19, 2012 21:08:59 GMT -6
Japanese monster movies of the '60s. Godzilla = fire* Ghidorah = lightning smog monster = poison* Mothra = webs * also radiation The Monster Bios section at Toho Kingdom is really great. It lists dozens of these monsters, in a format similar to a system-neutral monster manual, e.g., Length: ...
Mass: ....
Wingspan: ...
Powers/Weapons: ...
Weaknesses: ....
Description: ....
First Film Appearance: ... ...along with a picture. |
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tog
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Detect Meal & What Kind
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Post by tog on Mar 13, 2013 21:05:31 GMT -6
I just got done re-reading de Camp & Pratt's The Compleat Enchanter, and, to my surprise, in the first novella ("The Roaring Trumpet", set in Norse legend) there's a load of stuff that must have influenced OD&D, including a chlorine-breathing dragon:
The dragon might have been intended to be Fafnir, and it's not explicitly described as green, but there you have it.
(As well, I'm sure the worm-hair of true Trolls came from this story, as well as the description of fire giants as Neandertal-like, as can be seen from the illustration in the 1e Monster Manual. Plus you have flaming swords, Brooms of Flying, and a woman made of snow (Simulacrum).)
I've just started The Carnelian Cube, which also seems to have been an influence on the game, at least in the form of a certain miscellaneous magic item.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 15, 2013 10:05:42 GMT -6
Yeah, “The Roaring Trumpet” was also the inspiration for the G-series. The overall approach towards magic in that series was also IMO influential on D&D spellcasting.
Tolkien did mention cold-drakes. Although it was never specified that they had cold as a “breath weapon,” it is reasonable to presume something similar.
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tog
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Detect Meal & What Kind
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Post by tog on Mar 15, 2013 12:33:48 GMT -6
Tolkien did mention cold-drakes. Although it was never specified that they had cold as a “breath weapon,” it is reasonable to presume something similar. If I remember rightly, "cold" referred only to the fact that they had no (internal) fire, therefore no fire breath. Just big lizards, pretty much. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 16, 2013 9:15:20 GMT -6
Coincidentally, today I was looking at the wingless dragons in town with the Mesopotamian exhibition:  |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 30, 2013 1:15:03 GMT -6
In Western lit that I'm familiar with the dragons are usually portrayed spitting fire. In much older lore dragons (and their serpent-cousins) are associated more with water (the Greek Hydra, Nordic Midgardsormr, and Vrtra of Vedic myth) than fire. I just assumed the weird acid/cold/chlorine gas/etc. were Gygaxisms. *shrug* Isidore of Seville in his "Etymologies" simply said "halitu necat" (it kills with the breath), but didn't get specific. As for Vincent of Beauvais' "Speculum Majus", I'd have to look around to see what that says about dragons.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 12:51:53 GMT -6
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Post by Red Baron on Aug 2, 2014 21:55:50 GMT -6
I'm re-reading THE HOBBIT and have FARMER GILES OF HAM on my "to do" list. This got me thinking about dragons. To me, dragons are big winged reptiles that blast fire at things. Dragons hoard treasure and like to chat with people before eating them. Perhaps I'm biased because this is similar to Tolkien's dragons, but as long as I can recall this is the way I think of them. A few weeks ago I was playing in a Next playtest and we encountered a dragon whose breath was acid. That just feels wrong to me. Same with dragons that shoot lightning or noxious gas or whatever. Are there any literary sources that mention wacky dragons like the ones we find in D&D? The only ones I can think of are the fire-breathers. Interestingly enough, the dragon in FARMER GILES never breathes aught but smoke and hot air. The only thing belching fire in the story is our hero's blunderbuss. |
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Post by derv on Aug 3, 2014 8:56:52 GMT -6
I'd be curious to hear how often people here actually include Dragons in their games. I rarely do and, like Finarvyn, it is most commonly the winged fire breathing variety of the red hue when I do. Tolkien has me subconsciously entrenched I guess.
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Post by tetramorph on Aug 3, 2014 10:49:42 GMT -6
Derv, I am currently running a very dragon-centric dungeon for just that reason. I want my campaign-mates to feel like they are playing Dungeons AND DRAGONS every now and then!
Aher, I appreciate your very complete break down.
Water and Fire seem to be the two main classical and traditional (respectively) elements "breathed." But hey, Gygax, why the heck not?
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Post by derv on Aug 3, 2014 13:59:58 GMT -6
Derv, I am currently running a very dragon-centric dungeon for just that reason. I want my campaign-mates to feel like they are playing Dungeons AND DRAGONS every now and then! Do you expect they will live?  |
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Post by tetramorph on Aug 3, 2014 14:27:49 GMT -6
PCs will perish. All for gold and glory.
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Post by TheObligatorySQL on Aug 3, 2014 16:31:24 GMT -6
In Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien does mentions a "Cold-drake" as opposed to the Urulók ("Fire-drakes"). However, he doesn't go into detail as to what it means to be a Cold-drake.
One would assume this could mean that the dragon breathes rime or concentrated diamond dust.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 0:17:15 GMT -6
I like to think of my dragons as breathing caustic pyroclastic gasses of intense heat and toxicity.
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tog
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Post by tog on Aug 6, 2014 17:01:45 GMT -6
In Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien does mentions a "Cold-drake" as opposed to the Urulók ("Fire-drakes"). However, he doesn't go into detail as to what it means to be a Cold-drake. One would assume this could mean that the dragon breathes rime or concentrated diamond dust. I seem to remember running somewhere into a commentary that specified that "cold-drakes" were dragons whose fires were cold, i.e. just big "lizards". It might have been in an unofficial source, a paperback encyclopedia of Middle Earth I picked up back in the early 80's; can't recall the title, unfortunately. |
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jdjarvis
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Hmmm,,,, had two user names, I'll be using this one from now on.
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Post by jdjarvis on Aug 15, 2014 9:09:56 GMT -6
Wasn't the Dragon St. George fought a poison gas spewer? I seem to vaguely recall a few tales where dragon breath was toxic and their spittle even worse that predated D&D.
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bycrom
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Post by bycrom on Jul 8, 2015 0:08:36 GMT -6
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