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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 12, 2013 17:09:29 GMT -6
Thanks Aergraith... it looks like the same error occurs in the Ref Rules PDFs (Vol 2 page 18, versus Vol 3 page 19).
Vol 2 page 18 is in error. Draft horse should be 12", and war horse should be 18".
the boxed set PDFs are under John's stewardship, but I will correct the Ref Rules in the upcoming "v2" corrections.
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 3, 2013 8:39:56 GMT -6
I noticed that for each class the Saving Throw scores for Save vs Wand and Save vs Petrification/Paralyzation were switched with respect to the original. Was this done intentionally to make the tables different from OD&D?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 3, 2013 15:34:59 GMT -6
The figures were certainly "fiddled" to make them differ somewhat from the original. I don't recall intentionally "switching" any categories, however, so that may be either coincidental or an error (if, say, the category headings were mistakenly switched during translation from one of the many files to another). I'll take a closer look at it after work tonight and let you know my findings. Thanks Zenopus
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 3, 2013 15:38:37 GMT -6
While we're talking saving throws -- I've previously noted that there's an error (in the Ref Rules) with the high level thief saving throws. From memory, I think it was that levels 9-12 in one of the categories are off by 1 or 2. That is already corrected in the Ref Rules amendments, which will be available shortly after all the boxed sets have been delivered.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 4, 2013 4:27:52 GMT -6
Well spotted Zenopus, I exalt your worthy eyes! The saving throw headings "Paralysis, Petrification" and "Wands, Rays" were erroneously switched in the case of fighters, clerics, and magic-users. (The explanation of saving throws on page 21 gives the categories in the correct order). The entry for thieves is correct as it is, but I will switch those two columns so that the saving throw categories remain in a consistent order across the four classes. There was a different error with the thief saving throws, however; at levels 9-12 the thief's saving throws versus paralysis should be 9, 9, 9, 7 rather than 8, 8, 8, 5. ... Looking at it all in hindsight, it seems that DD might be overly generous with magic-user (and thus thief) and cleric saving throws compared to the original. Ultimately, this is a bit of a hit to the fighting-man. So, in light of this I will take some more time to review the saving throw numbers overall. I'll report back when I'm done... ... I've double-checked the numbers, and apparently I goofed it By 12th level the cleric, magic-user (and hence thief) saves are ~2 pips better than intended. For those that are concerned with such details, I'll add the corrected progression to the errata sheet.
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ratikranger
Level 3 Conjurer
It's not just Chainmail that's turning 50 this year... :-D
Posts: 67
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Post by ratikranger on May 31, 2013 18:43:52 GMT -6
All of what follows refers to the "v2" Adventurer's Handbook PDF from drivethrurpg.com which I finally gave a good read over the last two days. Not all of these are "mistakes" but I thought I point them out anyway. I am not trying to start a big debate though, you should feel free to just ignore my opinions without explanation. ;D (I just hope I help you catch a few things before you produce the new hardcover version.)
LAYOUT
- the bars used in tables, especially around the header, are too thick (at least for my typographic sensibilities)
- page 21, "Turning the Undead": there must be a nicer symbol for "destroyed" than that weird "d" thing
- page 24: why is there a border around this one?
TYPOS
- page 6, line 1: "...adventurers has..." instead of "...adventurers have..."?
- page 14, line 1: "...in infiltration..." instead of "...at infiltration..."? but you should probably rewrite the entire sentence to avoid having that "in in" thing going on
- page 14, line 4: "...save much as do magic-users" seems useless commentary, you're giving a new table of saving throws anyway
- page 14, last two lines before table: "...reading of magic-user spells..." should be "...casting of..."
- page 16, paragraph 6, last line: "...referee will use..." or "...can use..." instead of "...referee should use..." since this is the player book
- page 17, "Relatives", paragraph 4: "Should there BE an..." instead of "Should there an..."
- page 18, "Supplies: both wolvesbane and belladonna (spelled "Belladona" for some reason) are listed, one should be enough
CONSISTENCY
- page 7, "Determination of Abilities": only time they are given in SIWCDX order, everywhere else the order is SIWDCX instead
- page 8, "Strength": no negative adjustment for low strength? both D and C get one...
- page 9, "Dexterity": mentions "thieves" in a core rule, but thieves are optional; at least say "...for the optional thieves class" or something
- page 10, "The Fighter"; page 11, "The Cleric": clerics make 2 gp but fighters make 1 gp "per settler"? seems that clerics get too much for free considering they already get their "loyal dervishes" as well; (note that Volume 2 explains the 2 gp to be 1 gp tax and 1 gp alms but maybe that should be mentioned here as well)
- page 12, "The Anti-Cleric": do they get settlers as well?
- page 15, "Beyond Level 12": if you just gave the XP/level after the tables end, there would be no need to extrapolate them
- page 20, "Player's Attack Matrix": mentions "thieves" although they are optional
GENERAL
- replace "throw" with "roll" when dice are involved, except (obviously) for the term "saving throw"
- class progressions: each table mentions the hit dice pattern, none mention the required XP per level after those shown
- only fighters and clerics get strongholds? is that intentional?
- page 11, 12: "dervish" and "zealot" seem like strange words to use; at least they have flavor, unlike "follower" would, I give you that; but maybe you should point out the the DM has stats for these (ie. you're using those words because there are monster descriptions that fit them); maybe add "see MEN, DERVISH in Volume III"?
- clarify the "x-6" notation used for lots of d6-based checks, it's not immediately clear that "3-6" means a 66.6% chance
RULES
- page 8, "Languages Known": using "higher of I or W" seems untraditional (but I kinda like it)
- page 8, "Languages" box: the 20% seems rather random? chaotics WILL attack speakers of law?
- page 9, "Dexterity Adjustments": having "initiative adjustment" seems untraditional (and I don't like it)
- page 9, "Constitution": used to "resist disease" how? ability check? I hope not...
- page 9, "Retainers & Loyalty": adjustments are uneven, seems random
- page 10, "The Fighter": new special abilities are untraditional (but I kinda like them)
- page 11, "The Cleric": spellbook (I would call it "prayerbook") seems untraditional (but I like it!)
- page 13, "Elves": mention "dual-class" without having explained it and no reference to the later section, you probably want to cut some detail here and refer to the later more general discussion on page 15; no saving throw bonuses for elves? okay by me but seems strange; no infravision?; "nearly invisible" and "almost silently" has no rules attached?; secret door ability seems too high
- page 13, "Dwarves": half damage from giants instead of to-hit penalties seems untraditional (and I don't like it); mining abilities have no rules attached?; listening ability (just like elves and halflings) seems inappropriate? no alignment tongue?
- page 13, "Halflings": "invisible/silent" stuff has no rules attached?; they are tiny and get no damage reduction against giants while dwarves do?; no weapon restrictions based on size? no languages listed while elf and dwarf give them
- page 14, "Thieves": "...all man-types can advance in this class without limitation..." seems to imply elves/dwarves/halflings can to? maybe clear this up (here and later on page 15; also mention the option on page 13 where you describe each race); clarify whether the backstab damage is 2d6 @ level 1, 4d6 @ level 5, 6d6 @ level 9, and 8d6 @ level 13 or something else, the current phrase is not clear enough; "moving stealthily to pass or surprise enemy" implies that this avoids visual detection as well which seems weird; unclear that "decipher treasure map" and "cast from scrolls" are rolled as well, make it explicit
- page 15, second paragraph: you say to scale XP by dungeon level, but do you mean monster level instead? the latter seems to make more sense...
- page 15, "Changing Class": unclear if characters can triple-class; combine this with the elf stuff from page 13 and revise to make it clearer; also seems untraditional (but I like it!)
- page 16, "Morale": why are there details of the DMs rolling for morale here? this is the player's book so most of this can be cut
- page 16/17: make clear that "morale" applies to hirelings and mercenaries as well, not just to retainers
- page 16, "Enlisting Monsters": again, why mention details of the reaction roll here? it's the player's book! but at least the detail is much less here, a better example for what to re-write the "Morale" section on page 16 like
- page 18, "Armor": why list helmets? they are never mentioned again except to be listed as doing nothing on page 20?
- page 19, "Missiles": I like the take on ranges you have, it's not traditional but I don't care; however you never list what the modifiers for each range should be, neither here nor on page 20; players will want to know
- page 19, "Cost up Upkeep": first it's unclear whether a fighter/cleric in their stronghold is considered "urban living" or not; if it's not the rest of this doesn't matter; if it IS considered "urban" and therefor upkeep applies, the numbers just don't make sense; a fighter of level 9 has 250,000 xp and therefore needs 2,500 gp per month for upkeep; at the same time "settlers" (probably families, see earlier question) only net 1 gp/month/settler of income, so 2,500 "settlers" would be required to just keep the fighter "in shape" as it were; I have not done an extensive study, but I've seen sources that say a knight could live off of about 100 families in a pretty decent manner?; you may just want to double-check that and maybe tone down the upkeep cost a bit; (the "Constructing a Stronghold" stuff in Volume 2 also seems to indicate fewer families)
- page 20, "Armor Class": why list helmets?
- page 20, "Turning the Undead": are *all* undead immune to morale checks? I always interpreted this as *unintelligent* monsters instead; also you use "subdued" and if you mean as in "dragon" then you never explained it before
- page 22, "Spell Books": I do like having spell books, but I think the detail you have here is too fiddly; a separate book for each level? so a level 5 magic-user needs to lug around three spell books? what do those even weigh? you imply (in a way) that spell books cannot contain spells of mixed levels, so the whole "secondary book" thing seems weird unless you either mean "secondary books" (plural) or you allow mixing spell levels (but then the earlier part makes less sense); in a word: clarify this and maybe just go to "single spellbook" territory as basic D&D does
- page 23, "Reversible Spells": cleric get auto-reverse is not traditional (and I don't like it)
CONFUSING
- page 10, "Advancement": are all hit-dice re-rolled on each level? should be explicit about what happens if a new roll is lower
- page 10, "Fighters": mentions "randomized missile and melee hits" which are never explained anywhere else
- page 10, "Fighters"; page 11, "Clerics": mentions tax per settler; presumably it should be per family?
- page 15, "Beyond Level 12", "Changing Class", "Other Classes": should all be marked optional?
- page 18, "Supplies: containers are listed as weighing what they can hold, that's rather confusing at first; make a new table and list weight as well as capacity for containers? same for page 19, "Livestock and Transportation" (saddle bags, how much can I load into a longship, etc.)
- page 22/23, "Magic Spells": this section could benefit from some reordering of paragraphs; first move the "A magic-user or cleric can memorize" paragraph all the way to the beginning, no heading needed; then have the rest of "Spell Casting from Memory" and "Spell Casting from Text" and "Reversible Spells"; I think you can cut "Saving Throws" completely, you already said as much before on page 21; then put "Spell Books" and "Spell Scrolls" and finally the note on "Cumulative Magic"
- page 23, line 1: the use of "counter-spell" is confusing; you probably just mean "hit by a spell while casting" and not "a spell cast specifically to counter the one this MU is casting already"; seems to be easier to say "is hit or has to make a saving throw" as a rule for having a spell fizzle
COMMENTARY
- page 15, "Other Classes" and page 22, "Spell Scrolls": how very Holmes-ian of you! :-)
SPELLS
- "Cure Light Wounds" requires "one round of aid" while "Cure Serious Wounds" and "Cure Critical Wounds" require "one turn of aid"; seems inconsistent especially in light of the reversed versions having no such requirement (obviously)
- I very much enjoy most of your "new" reversed spells such as "obscure evil" and "obscure object" and so on, good stuff! :-)
- Also "Eneverate Dead" and "Eneverate Reptiles" is genius! :-)
- "Protection from Good" is extremely unclear when it says "applies equally to creatures of good or evil nature"? So it's "Protection from Evil" but also against "Good"? What? Also with the "enchanted, conjured, supernatural, or undead" qualifier, "Protection from Good" would not help the EHP against the PCs, would it? Again, clarify.
- "Bless" only works on a single target? The "touch" and "upon any ally" thing are not clear enough.
- "Silence" should probably mention the "let's make the party stealthy despite of plate mail" application, not just the "let's silence the enemy spell-caster" part.
- "Continuous Light" sounds weird but is correct, however the cleric version on page 26, line 3 still has "continual" in it.
- "Remove Curse" traditionally allows removing the curse from an object as well, turning it into a normal, non-magical object; not sure I care.
- "Remove Disease" cures "all disease in one subject" which is inconsistent with "Remove Curse" only removing "one curse from a creature" and also inconsistent with the traditional wording.
- "Animate Reptiles" doesn't specify how many "sticks" are affected; presumably 3-18 but you could be explicit; you may want to give a save to weapons held by enemies but I am not sure about that, seems mighty useful if there's no save.
- Given that "Protection from Evil" and "Detect Evil" work on "enchanted, conjured, supernatural, or undead" shouldn't "Dispel Evil" also work on those and not just "conjured" monsters? The "Useful against" sentence seems to assume so but the descriptions should probably be consistent.
- Why is "Quest" not a curse? "Geas" is.
- Why is "Floating Disk" 2 feet off the ground instead of 3 feet as in AD&D? Legal problems?
- "Sleep" affects 3-18 hit-dice instead of 2-12 which is not traditional (and probably overpowered without a save already).
- "Invisibility" shouldn't be a curse, should it?
- "Knock" opening "all known and unlocked doors ... within range" is wild and non-traditional. But cute, so keep it. :-)
- "Phantasm" causing real damage is traditional but a little silly, unless you always grant the saving throw.
- "Fireball" does "10-60" damage but "Lightning Bolt" does "10 dice" damage, consistency?
- "Levitate" and "Fly" don't work on others? "Jump" does? "Dimension Door" and "Teleport" do as well.
- "Slow" giving a -4 penalty instead of "attack every other round" seems weird.
- "Polymorph" giving the caster the (physical) combat abilities of the creature (ANY creature!) is overpowered.
- "Telekinesis" at 6 rounds and 20lb/level seems underpowered; traditionally it's 6 turns but the weight is the same (in the traditional system anyway); still given that "Levitate" and "Fly" could move the weight of the caster already, 20lb/level still seems low; but I won't argue that you should re-write Gygax. :-)
- "Project Image" should probably explain what happens if the image is hit by an attack?
- "Repulsion" is the only spell you have that mentions a 90 degree arc?
- How thick is the "Wall of Iron"?
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
Got your mirrorshades?
Posts: 355
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Jun 1, 2013 6:08:50 GMT -6
Wow! That's a pretty detailed list there, ratik. Nice job! I'll leave it to Simon to answer in more detail if he chooses, but thought I'd chime in. Many of your rules comments - things you read as untraditional, or in need clarification - are meant to be that way, I'm pretty sure. A lot of them are literal readings of the LBBs as opposed to small changes that we are used to in later editions (dwarven infravision for example). In other cases the ambiguity is consistent with how things were left open to interpretation in the original rules. That leads to the open nature of the rules set that is it's strength (in the eyes of it's supporters).
Also, you seem to see a split in the books as Player and DM, and I don't read them that way. It's more like CHARACTER-focused info than PLAYER-focused, IMO.
Just out of curiosity, are you a younger/newer player coming back to OD&D via DD for the first time? That would explain a lot of your opinions (Not implying they are bad/wrong - you have some great feedback in there).
Welcome, and enjoy the game!
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 1, 2013 8:08:09 GMT -6
Thanks for the very detailed reading Ratikranger; have an exalt for your efforts I'll review your suggestions carefully as I go thru the process of laying out the hardback edition, so I won't reply to the layout/typo/error type comments here. But I feel I should reply to your rules queries here for the general readership. Generally, I'd comment that you seem to use the term "traditional" to imply something more modern than OD&D. DD aims to restate the OD&D rules "as is", regardless of whether or not they were "corrected" in later editions. More specifically... - page 8, "Languages Known" Yes, that is an interpretation of the original particular to DD. M&M p10 "Wisdom rating will act much as does that for intelligence." - page 8, "Languages" box: the 20% seems rather random? M&M p12 "All other creatures and monsters which can speak have their own language, although some (20%) also know the common one." - page 9, "Dexterity Adjustments": having "initiative adjustment" seems untraditional M&M p11. "Dexterity... will indicate the character's... speed with actions such as firing first, getting off a spell, etc." FAQ. "Iniative is always checked... is simply a matter of rolling two dice (assuming that is the number of combatants) with the higher score gaining first attack that round. Dice scores are adjusted for dexterity and so on." - page 9, "Constitution": used to "resist disease" how? M&M p12 "Constitution is a combination of health and...". Exactly how this is used is up to the referee. - page 9, "Retainers & Loyalty": adjustments are uneven, seems random See M&M p11. - page 10, "The Fighter": new special abilities are untraditional The "new" abilities actually predate even the 3LBBS. They are from Chainmail (see full explanation here). OD&D assumes/includes Chainmail rules unless they are explicitly overruled: M&T p5: "functions are generally as indicated in CHAINMAIL where not contradictory to the information stated hereinafter" and other references to Chainmail throughout the LBBs. - page 11, "The Cleric": spellbook (I would call it "prayerbook") seems untraditional OD&D states that clerics function as do magic-users insofar as spell casting goes (M&M p7). And also: "Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use," M&M p34. - page 13, "Elves": mention "dual-class" without having explained it and no reference to the later section, you probably want to cut some detail here and refer to the later more general discussion on page 15; The original text is open to interpretation on this topic; I floated my interpretation of it here for discussion. Yes, a reference to the section on changing classes might be helpful here, thanks. no saving throw bonuses for elves? okay by me but seems strange; no infravision?; "nearly invisible" and "almost silently" has no rules attached?; secret door ability seems too high. All as per the original; see M&M p8, M&T p16, U&WA p9. - page 13, "Dwarves": half damage from giants instead of to-hit penalties seems untraditional (and I don't like it); mining abilities have no rules attached?; listening ability (just like elves and halflings) seems inappropriate? As per the original; see M&M p8, M&T p16, U&WA p9. - page 13, "Halflings": "invisible/silent" stuff has no rules attached?; they are tiny and get no damage reduction against giants while dwarves do?; no weapon restrictions based on size? no languages listed while elf and dwarf give them As per the original (M&M+Chainmail, since Halflings are not discussed in M&T). - page 14, "Thieves": "...all man-types can advance in this class without limitation..." seems to imply elves/dwarves/halflings can to? Yes. Perhaps this should be clearer clarify whether the backstab damage is 2d6 @ level 1, 4d6 @ level 5, 6d6 @ level 9, and 8d6 @ level 13 or something else, the current phrase is not clear enough; "moving stealthily to pass or surprise enemy" implies that this avoids visual detection as well which seems weird; unclear that "decipher treasure map" and "cast from scrolls" are rolled as well, make it explicit I have already clarified back stab damage for the hardback. The other skills are intentionally hazy. It is up to the referee to rule what the thief player can and cannot get away with. The player is encouraged to push the boundaries in order to learn the limits of his "abilities". - page 15, second paragraph: you say to scale XP by dungeon level, but do you mean monster level instead? the latter seems to make more sense... M&T p18. "thus an 8th level Magic-User operating on the 5th dungeon level would be awarded 5/8 experience." - page 15, "Changing Class": unclear if characters can triple-class; combine this with the elf stuff from page 13 and revise to make it clearer; also seems untraditional The rules don't explicitly allow or disallow triple classed characters -- it is left to the referee. As mentioned for Elves, above, this area is extremely brief in the original (see M&M p10), and it is not DD's role to elaborate further. That is for referees and their House Rules - page 16, "Morale": why are there details of the DMs rolling for morale here? this is the player's book so most of this can be cut Mainly because that's how it was presented in the original, but you're right; there may be an opportunity to de-clutter the players' section by moving some "referee stuff" to the referee's section. - page 18, "Armor": why list helmets? they are never mentioned again except to be listed as doing nothing on page 20? Whether helmets do anything is ambiguous in the original rules. What they do "do" is described in DD Ref Rules Vol 3 p36. Whether that rule should apply to ALL helmets or just magical ones is up to the referee. Me personally, I use it for all helmets. But that's just me. See also the disucssion on this subject here. - page 19, "Missiles": I like the take on ranges you have, it's not traditional but I don't care; however you never list what the modifiers for each range should be, neither here nor on page 20; players will want to know The ranges are according to the OD&D rules (Chainmail + 3LBBs). Range modifiers are given at the bottom of DD Ref Rules Vol 2 p16. FWIW -- it's up to the referee to rule what modifiers should apply and when. Granted, some modifiers are so "standard" that they almost always apply... but strictly speaking the players don't need to know. - page 19, "Cost up Upkeep": The mathematics of upkeep may or may not be dubious, but the intent is not to "correct" to original rules, but rather to re-state them. Warts and all. - page 20, "Turning the Undead": are *all* undead immune to morale checks? I always interpreted this as *unintelligent* monsters instead; also you use "subdued" and if you mean as in "dragon" then you never explained it before Undead immunity to morale is an error in both v1 and v2 or the Ref Rules. Intelligent undead are NOT meant to be immune to morale or subdual, and this is already corrected for DD Next. FYI -- subdual is mentioned throughout the 3LBBs; it applies generally, not just to dragons. - page 22, "Spell Books": I do like having spell books, but I think the detail you have here is too fiddly; a separate book for each level? M&M p34: "Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level." - page 23, "Reversible Spells": cleric get auto-reverse is not traditional (and I don't like it) This is an area of interpretation, for sure, but see especially the reverse of Raise Dead M&M p34: "The Finger of Death:... A cleric may use this spell... but misuse will immediately turn him into an anti-cleric". My interpretation of this is that the anti-spells are a "temptation" that is forever hanging over the cleric. He has access to the more harmful magic, but he risks being turned to the dark side if he uses it wantonly. - page 10, "Advancement": are all hit-dice re-rolled on each level? should be explicit about what happens if a new roll is lower It's not specified either way in the original, and nor is it in DD. It's up to the referee to rule on it. - page 10, "Fighters": mentions "randomized missile and melee hits" which are never explained anywhere else "Heroes... are the last figure in a unit that will be killed by regular missile fire or melee" (CM p30). This may be useful, for example, if the referee is rolling to determine who will be struck by 30 incoming arrows, or 2 bouders hurled by giants, for example. - page 10, "Fighters"; page 11, "Clerics": mentions tax per settler; presumably it should be per family? Per inhabitant, as per the original. - page 15, "Beyond Level 12", "Changing Class", "Other Classes": should all be marked optional? Everything in the book is optional, really. - page 22/23, "Magic Spells": this section could benefit from some reordering of paragraphs I'll review it; thanks. - page 23, line 1: the use of "counter-spell" is confusing; you probably just mean "hit by a spell while casting" Yes. That could be clearer, thanks. Thanks again for your great effort -- DD Next will be all the better for it! Is volume 2 up next ;D
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ratikranger
Level 3 Conjurer
It's not just Chainmail that's turning 50 this year... :-D
Posts: 67
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Post by ratikranger on Jun 1, 2013 10:56:25 GMT -6
I guess I am old enough but it's certainly true that I have not actually played according to the LBBs myself. I've been "delving" into them over the last year or two. I was well aware of my "limitations" in interpreting everything correctly, I just wanted to make a pass over it because I really really really want that DD Next hardcover to be perfect. :-)
Also I am frequently tempted to simplify as much as possible but it's certainly true that "restate with warts and all and then let people house rule it" is a valuable goal. I forget, is there a line somewhere that says "you are expected to house-rule this, potentially a lot"?
I am humbled by your wonderful reply because I *was* actually sitting here with my LBBs trying to double-check things myself, but I guess I have not read them often enough. :-)
Edit: Finally, note that some of my comments, for example regarding subdual, are not about the LBB-DD relationship but just about DD if you take it as its own rule set.
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Jun 2, 2013 13:32:30 GMT -6
I have tried reading and reading everything I can get my hands on as far as the old rules. It has taken me a while to understand their simplicity. Especially after having spent time playing 2nd edition and 3rd. And of course, video games had spoiled me as well. I enjoyed your comments ratikranger and enjoyed ways' response.
As for me, when in doubt, I house rule it! I love these simple rules because it's so easy to make a ruling. I can't tell you how many times a house ruling attempt in 3rd turned into a 2 hour discussion/debate.
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ratikranger
Level 3 Conjurer
It's not just Chainmail that's turning 50 this year... :-D
Posts: 67
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Post by ratikranger on Jun 3, 2013 0:58:02 GMT -6
Let me just point out that I have no problem with house ruling anything. If there was no possible feedback loop like in the "good old" TSR days (well, at least not an effective one) I'd just keep my notes to myself, change things for play, and you'd never hear anything, whether spot-on or flawed. But I think these days, and especially with products like this one, the feedback loop is a lot more effective. So my main point was simply to help produce a "better" set of rules (that can then still be house-ruled of course). In other words, I consider myself sort of an optional (and maybe not 100% qualified, sorry) editor-in-training looking for inconsistencies and possible improvements and the like.
Found one more BTW: Vol 1, Page 17 refers to an "undecided" reaction but Vol 2, Page 13 only has an "uncertain" reaction. :-)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 3, 2013 4:32:19 GMT -6
I appreciate your proofing effort Ratikranger. Every little bit of help counts; it all helps to improve the quality of the hardback, and that's a good thing I reckon. And I love the lizardman logo too -- if there was still an exalt button, I'd push it again
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ratikranger
Level 3 Conjurer
It's not just Chainmail that's turning 50 this year... :-D
Posts: 67
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Post by ratikranger on Jun 9, 2013 13:44:52 GMT -6
I sent off another load of comments, but I sent them directly this time to free our moderator from having to "set me straight" in public. I am sure that many of my comments are again just me not understanding the game well enough, but in any case, I hope they'll be useful. I am finally in Vol 3 now, trying to make sense of the monsters and treasures. I really look forward to the hardcover!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2013 14:11:58 GMT -6
I sent off another load of comments, but I sent them directly this time to free our moderator from having to "set me straight" in public. I am sure that many of my comments are again just me not understanding the game well enough, but in any case, I hope they'll be useful. I am finally in Vol 3 now, trying to make sense of the monsters and treasures. I really look forward to the hardcover! I don't believe Ways of the Earth will mind my reply. By all means, post your comments here. Others might find your material useful, either as house rules or assistance with their own understanding of what we were trying to accomplish with DD. This forum has fewer flame war eruptions, overall, then other boards around the 'net. Please don't be shy about speaking your mind. Simon (WotE) has demonstrated repeatedly his desire to keep the dialog going between the fans and the next edition of the game.
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ratikranger
Level 3 Conjurer
It's not just Chainmail that's turning 50 this year... :-D
Posts: 67
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Post by ratikranger on Jun 9, 2013 19:06:26 GMT -6
Oh I didn't mean to imply that I am shy, I was simply going with Simon's suggestion of keeping the traffic down. I don't want him to feel he has to do extra work addressing things in public because I said them in public, I am sure he's plenty busy with the work he's doing on DD Next.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 9, 2013 22:02:23 GMT -6
Sorry for the confusion guys. I don't want to discourage DD discussion; quite the reverse! I meant (but failed) to convey that rules discussions can be a matter unto themselves, and some of them may warrant separate thread in their own right (and as the DD co-author/editor/custodian I would of course have a responsibility to participate in these discussions too). On the other hand, this thread was intended simply for identifying errors and inconsistencies rather than detailed rules discussions. I acknowledge that sometimes it's not always clear where one ends and the other begins, but in general it would help me keep track of the corrections if this thread contained just the corrections. Sorry if I'm being overly fussy, it's more that I've got a lot to do as it is! I'm incredibly thankful that Ratikranger has gone to the effort to document all his concerns, and (as I said above), it all helps make the hardback a better product
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ratikranger
Level 3 Conjurer
It's not just Chainmail that's turning 50 this year... :-D
Posts: 67
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Post by ratikranger on Jun 12, 2013 14:28:04 GMT -6
And volume 3 is done as well. Phew, that was a lot of work. :-) Now just a small question: Aside from the DD Next hardcover, are you also going to update the new markdown version and then bring the basic PDFs in line with all the rewriting you're doing? Please say yes? :-)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 12, 2013 17:28:19 GMT -6
Thanks ratikranger, you've earned a proof reader credit for sure! Yes, that's the plan
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Post by scottenkainen on Jun 13, 2013 7:03:52 GMT -6
Actually, those numbers might make sense. If "blazing new trails" means long-distance travel, then a draft horse is going to do better than a warhorse. If "the fiendish and the malign" refers to combat situations, then the war horse is going to have the better Move.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
>Thanks Aergraith... it looks like the same error occurs in the Ref Rules PDFs (Vol 2 page 18, versus Vol 3 page 19). >Vol 2 page 18 is in error. Draft horse should be 12", and war horse should be 18".
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Post by aesdana on Feb 17, 2014 12:27:23 GMT -6
I searched in the "Delving_Deeper_Ref_Rules_v2_The_Monster_&_Treasure_Reference" pdf, in this thread or in the Delving Deeper subforum. Alas, I could not find the description of the vorpal sword.
Did it get cut off from the book ?
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Post by verhaden on Feb 17, 2014 14:06:48 GMT -6
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Post by aesdana on Feb 17, 2014 15:15:42 GMT -6
Thanks for the links verhaden !
I made this message, however, to show the v2 text should include the vorpal sword description (or did I miss something ?)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 17, 2014 15:27:24 GMT -6
I searched in the "Delving_Deeper_Ref_Rules_v2_The_Monster_&_Treasure_Reference" pdf, in this thread or in the Delving Deeper subforum. Alas, I could not find the description of the vorpal sword. Did it get cut off from the book ? Hi aesdana and thanks for your interest in DD Yes, it's true that description of vorpal swords was (accidentally) omitted from the Ref Rules v2. FYI--there were also a few of other omissions from that version. From memory, I think yellow mold, monster saving throws, and the overbearing rules were were missing. These things (and a whole bunch more) are fixed in the upcoming Reliquary version, which verhaden has already linked to.
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Post by aesdana on Feb 19, 2014 13:02:32 GMT -6
You're welcome waysoftheearth : Discovering Delving Deeper was a real blast for me : OD&D with a readable layout is a must.
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