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Post by Jonathan Miller on Sept 2, 2012 6:28:41 GMT -6
Until yesterday, I had avoided randomly stocking the dungeons in my Balmor campaign. The random method described in Volume 3: Underworld & Wilderness Adventurers seemed like it would generate results that were meaningless and nonsensical. I had adventured in such dungeons as a player, with disappointing results. I wanted Balmor to feature monsters and NPCs will interesting and believable motives, and I wanted the dungeon layout and ecology to credibly reflect the "realities" of a fantasy world.
But the beauty of random stocking is that you generate results and combinations that you never would have thought of on your own. And what I discovered is that your mind will naturally think of ways to interpret or tweak the results to preserve credibility. If there is a giant scorpion with treasure next to two gnolls (in my campaign, "goblin trolls"), it is up to you to figure out why. In this case, I decided the treasure was stashed there by a defunct cult long ago, and that the goblin trolls are scouts seeking to claim this area of the dungeon for their tribe. In this way, the random method is actually a great way of stimulating creativity.
A good randomizer will create the right amount of variability in the dungeon. When I was designing and stocking the dungeon without a randomizer, I tended to fall into well-worn patterns regarding the layout of rooms and passages, and the placement of monsters and treasure. When the dungeon is too patterned and predictable, this can actually strain credibility. The real world is often unpredictable and contains a great deal of variability; so too should your dungeon.
The process of looking for meaning in a randomly generated dungeon seems similar to reading Tarot cards or using other methods of divination. All divination methods seem to combine a randomizer of some sort with the judgment of a skilled interpreter. The human mind has a natural tendency to look for meaning and purpose even when there is none. The same mind which insists on finding meaning in tea leaves and bull entrails will also find meaning in a randomly generated dungeon--you can count on it! The only thing that is required is giving a little bit of thought after you have used the randomizer to figure out what the results mean. Combining randomness with deliberate design seems to work much better than using either randomness or deliberate design on their own.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 2, 2012 9:46:14 GMT -6
An interesting observation. I, too, am split on randomness in RPGs. On one hand I enjoy Amber Diceless, which is not at all random. On the other hand, I hate to lose my dice because of the fact that both GM and player can be surprised sometimes by the results. I suspect that the "ultimate" game is somewhere in between the two, with some thing predetermined and other things the whim of chance.  |
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Chainsaw
Level 4 Theurgist
Kiss the Rings, Mofos
Posts: 146
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Post by Chainsaw on Sept 2, 2012 10:40:37 GMT -6
But the beauty of random stocking is that you generate results and combinations that you never would have thought of on your own. And what I discovered is that your mind will naturally think of ways to interpret or tweak the results to preserve credibility. If there is a giant scorpion with treasure next to two gnolls (in my campaign, "goblin trolls"), it is up to you to figure out why. In this case, I decided the treasure was stashed there by a defunct cult long ago, and that the goblin trolls are scouts seeking to claim this area of the dungeon for their tribe. In this way, the random method is actually a great way of stimulating creativity. Great paragraph. I agree! |
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monk
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 173
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Post by monk on Sept 2, 2012 11:42:23 GMT -6
Great example of this is Raggi's Random Esoteric Monster Generator. You get very random, sometimes nonsensical combinations of attributes; but if you stare at them for a while, and scratch your head a bit, your brain figures out a way to integrate them and create a monster you never would've imagined on your own.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 2, 2012 15:24:39 GMT -6
Good thread. Another thing I like about randomness is that it allows the DM (and not only the players) to explore and be surprised by the campaign world.
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rleduc
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 75
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Post by rleduc on Sept 2, 2012 20:49:03 GMT -6
You would not believe the extent to which doctors will strain to invent explanations for what are quite probably random perturbations to the data in the observational studies I'm the statistician for. The mind is wonderfully nimble at attempting to make order out of chaos. I strongly recommend the random approach. It won't seem so random after the fact. You can always overlay other deterministic plans in addition anyway.
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elf23
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 20
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Post by elf23 on Sept 3, 2012 13:31:43 GMT -6
Agreed! I find this process of connecting randomly selected elements extremely fun and productive. Personally I'm not such a big user of random monster charts during dungeon stocking, but two random techniques I'm a great fan of are: 1. The "room contents roll" (1-2 = empty, 3-4 = monster, 5 = trap, 6 = special, or whatever). I especially love those "specials"! 2. Inspirationisers like Risus Monkey's Dungeon Words. Generate a few of those, and ideas just seem to leap out of the gaps between them. Randomness -- great stuff! |
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Sept 3, 2012 13:45:48 GMT -6
You would not believe the extent to which doctors will strain to invent explanations for what are quite probably random perturbations to the data in the observational studies I'm the statistician for. The mind is wonderfully nimble at attempting to make order out of chaos. I strongly recommend the random approach. It won't seem so random after the fact. You can always overlay other deterministic plans in addition anyway. Yeah. I like your example of doctors' rationalizations because it shows the "dark side" of the mind's ability to search for meaning. I guess the underlying human capacity is the ability to search for signal in the midst of seeming noise. This can of course be quite useful. But the human capacity seems rigged to generate false positives. Maybe this makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, since missing meaning where there really is one could be more costly than perceiving meaning where there really isn't one. Regardless, that sometimes harmful propensity to search for meaning seems like it works well in conjunction with the randomizers people use in RPGs. I've always been a "top-down" sort of thinker and frankly it's hampered my attempts to develop dungeons and the rest of a game world. There does seem to be a sweet spot which involves combining randomly generated material with pre-generated ideas and post-facto rationalizations. |
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Sept 3, 2012 14:11:02 GMT -6
Personally I'm not such a big user of random monster charts during dungeon stocking, You know, I had resisted using the monster tables for a long time, in part because the monsters in my campaign don't perfectly match the lists in OD&D. But I found that the tables are a useful way of generating variety and spontaneity in the inhabitants of the dungeon I'm currently working on--a sprawling system of sewers together with some other artificial tunnels and catacombs, which extends beneath most of the campaign's major city. I figure that if I ever get a result I don't like I can just change or reroll it. I hadn't thought about it, but the OD&D room contents roll is a little bland by comparison--no chance for a trap or special. A separate table of traps and specials would be a nice supplement to the room contents roll you mentioned (perhaps derived from appendices G, H, and I in the DMG). This, or something like it, would indeed be quite useful. Thanks. |
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Sept 3, 2012 14:23:17 GMT -6
Another thing I like about randomness is that it allows the DM (and not only the players) to explore and be surprised by the campaign world. I hadn't thought about it that way. It seems weird to think of the DM as exploring the world which he is himself inventing. But with randomizers there's a since in which that's right. Even when the DM is deliberately interpreting and trying to make sense of whichever results were randomly determined, it seems helpful to maintain the attitude or the mindset that one is simply "discovering" or "exploring" what's already there. It seems like it would let one create in a more naturalistic and less pretentious or preconceived way. Did you use randomizers in the creation of Carcosa and Isle of the Unknown? I haven't bought either of those esteemed publications yet, but they are definitely on my list based on what I have read about them so far. |
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Sept 3, 2012 14:57:28 GMT -6
Based on the good experience with randomly stocking dungeons, I've thought about using randomizers for generating dungeon, city, and wilderness maps. I've had trouble drawing maps that look and feel "right". This is especially so with my city map, which looks very linear and chunky (even worse than the Judges' Guild City State of the Invincible Overlord map)--not at all like the map of a real medieval city, with its curving streets and lack of a central plan. In Vornheim, Zak S. talks about basing street layouts on the shapes of randomly rolled numbers; I've been afraid to try it, but maybe now's the time. In general, though, I'm keen on somehow using the power of randomness to help mimic the appearance of actual cities, buildings, and natural landscapes.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 5, 2012 0:04:59 GMT -6
Did you use randomizers in the creation of Carcosa and Isle of the Unknown? I haven't bought either of those esteemed publications yet, but they are definitely on my list based on what I have read about them so far. Yes, I sometimes generated things randomly in both of these settings. It's hard for me to pin down now what was randomly generated and what was thoroughly created. Many things were neither either/or, but were a bit of both creation and of random generation. As time goes by, I find myself using random generation more. |
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Post by blackbarn on Sept 5, 2012 1:15:27 GMT -6
Randomness is only nonsensical when you don't elaborate on it and make it work. It's a great tool for inspiring your imagination, it isn't supposed to do all of the work for you. Personally, the randomness of characters, dungeons, and wilderness is the main draw and fun aspect of this game! I love how I can start with few/no ideas and in after some dice rolls have something totally unique and interesting on my hands... something I would never have thought up on my own.
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Post by kesher on Sept 5, 2012 12:08:54 GMT -6
Okay, DungeonWords is awesome! Be Thou Exalted for linking to that!
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