bat
Level 4 Theurgist
Mostly Chaotic
Posts: 144
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Post by bat on Aug 9, 2012 10:54:09 GMT -6
There is a lot of great advice out there. I have a couple of coppers to toss in: I wrote a one page old school primer some time back that condenses everything. It was meant to be printed out and left, guerilla-like, in places. You can find it here. Treasure: Throw things at them that they do not expect! Not every treasure will be or should be a boon, too. Look around the internet for ideas or things to snag. My blog (link below) is full of spells, magic items, monsters, etc. Take a spell and make it into a magic item if you want to, change things around. There are other great blogs out there doing the same thing, too! Monsters: Players should know when to run, you are doing this right, although, do you have beneficial creatures too? Sometimes that oddball thing that helps keeps the morale of the players up. |
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Post by makofan on Aug 9, 2012 15:06:16 GMT -6
One idea for healing is allow them to drink an ale and get 1-3 hit points back. Then have them roll a d6. If the number they roll is UNDER the number of drinks consumed this session, they are drunk and a) can not get any more healing this way this day and 2) have -2 on all dice rolls until they sober up! I think this is a great rule, and we've used it in a C&C Conan game that a friend runs from time to time. But it might hinder them more than help with the possibility of getting drunk. I might add to your rule and say that the first drink gives 1-3 hit points back, but the second drink causes the roll for drunkeness. Thanks Makofan. Exactly. 1 drink means a 0 or less on a d6 gets them drunk (no chance) as they have to roll UNDER the number to get drunk. 2 drinks means a 1or less on a d6 gets them drunk,et cetera |
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naleax
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 20
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Post by naleax on Aug 9, 2012 15:35:51 GMT -6
They don't have any spell casters i.e. clerics or magic users, which I see as a serious problem. Although, they did. Unfortunately the spell casters died early on and no one rolled new ones. To me, that's a serious problem. Clerics to turn the undead, and magic-users to sleep and charm humanoid foes. Elves have more survivability than magic-users, so maybe they'd like to go that route. Consider allowing the OD&D bard class. At 1st level they can't do much, but at 1000 xp they get to level 2, and from there on out they can act as thieves and magic-users of half their level, in addition to bardic charming and suggestion abilities. Agreed, i'm going to suggest one or two of them play a cleric, elf or magic-user at the beginning of next session. I've also rolled up an NPC magic-user that will join them for an equal share of loot if the PC's wish to take him on. |
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naleax
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 20
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Post by naleax on Aug 9, 2012 15:41:26 GMT -6
There is a lot of great advice out there. I have a couple of coppers to toss in: I wrote a one page old school primer some time back that condenses everything. It was meant to be printed out and left, guerilla-like, in places. You can find it here. This is awesome, thank you. If they didn't read the Old School Primer, hopefully they will at least read a page long one. I'm going to send them your link and print some out. Treasure: Throw things at them that they do not expect! Not every treasure will be or should be a boon, too. Look around the internet for ideas or things to snag. My blog (link below) is full of spells, magic items, monsters, etc. Take a spell and make it into a magic item if you want to, change things around. There are other great blogs out there doing the same thing, too! Awesome, bookmarked, and Thank you! Monsters: Players should know when to run, you are doing this right, although, do you have beneficial creatures too? Sometimes that oddball thing that helps keeps the morale of the players up. Benign creatures? Not sure what you mean by oddball? Fiend Folio odd? |
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bat
Level 4 Theurgist
Mostly Chaotic
Posts: 144
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Post by bat on Aug 9, 2012 16:47:37 GMT -6
By benign and oddball I mean that sometimes I throw something weird into a game. Creatures that are going to help a party in some way. I am a 3"x5" index card king (I used to like super detail, but Finarvyn unwittingly and unknowingly converted me). I keep a lot of surprises, good, bad and indifferent, on 3"x5" cards in one of those card holders, indexed. When I reach for the box the players never know what is up my sleeve and they are sometimes relieved to get a little help.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Aug 9, 2012 17:14:02 GMT -6
Agreed, i'm going to suggest one or two of them play a cleric, elf or magic-user at the beginning of next session. I've also rolled up an NPC magic-user that will join them for an equal share of loot if the PC's wish to take him on. NPCs shouldn't do too much of the heavy lifting, IMHO. Let the players be the masters of their own fates. On magic-users (and spell casters in general), it may be worth mentioning that while a 1st level magic-user can only cast one spell per day from memory, there's no limit to the number of spells he can cast from scrolls. This is probably where the majority of a starting spell-caster's money should be invested. Make 1st level scrolls 25gp each, or simply give the player 3 or 4 scrolls to start with...? |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Aug 9, 2012 17:49:14 GMT -6
If you are not already using it, consider introducing the "Shields shall be splintered" house rule. This allows players with shields to "cancel" a hit by sacrificing their shield -- almost certainly extending the survivorship of fighters by at least one hit, and possibly more (given a shield bearer lugging a few spares around). Aye, this is a great house rule, and we did institute this rule at the same time we instituted adding the 2nd level hd rule. But no one has used it yet. I'll have to remind them about it. Another option is to simply "make it so". If ever a (frontal) blow would kill a PC who is carrying a shield, his shield is instead dashed into splinters and he survives. This doesn't require any effort from the players, and it is probably the "optimal" player strategy to preserve his AC for as long as possible anyway. A similar option/house rule was discussed a while back regarding helmets, see here . Or, alternatively, you could rule that helmets improve AC by one pip (this is what I do in my games, in fact). |
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Post by barrataria on Aug 10, 2012 8:00:36 GMT -6
Another option is to simply "make it so". If ever a (frontal) blow would kill a PC who is carrying a shield, his shield is instead dashed into splinters and he survives. This doesn't require any effort from the players, and it is probably the "optimal" player strategy to preserve his AC for as long as possible anyway. This is more or less my general suggestion. You are running things by the book... recall that this game was played by people used to wargames and sandtable minis, so "unit loss" was part of the whole game. So you're not doing anything "wrong".... except you need to have a game enjoyable for you and your players, and it sounds like that isn't happening. I fudge a lot more things for low level characters, especially in B/X. Maybe the spider's poison takes a couple of turns to take effect, and there's a mushroom in the next dungeon chamber that will counteract its effect if ingested. Start the magic-user at 2nd level. Give them a magic scroll that doubles HP for the day. Lean on one-shot magic items like potions and scrolls that they have to use up to survive to higher leve. Also, consider nerfing xp awards rather than awarding scads more treasure. It's fine to bury them in gp but then (if you are running a campaign) you will have to figure out where all those gp go and what players will do with them. Normally, this is the road to monty haul and munchkin games, but I think you started them out on the road to perpetual character-rolling, which IMO can be kind of dull. While detailed character backstories are kind of a bad idea and waste of time in B/X, I don't like ending up with "Erac's Cousin's Second Wife's Brother-in-Law" either, as players roll up more and more replacement characters. |
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Aug 10, 2012 8:13:55 GMT -6
On magic-users (and spell casters in general), it may be worth mentioning that while a 1st level magic-user can only cast one spell per day from memory, there's no limit to the number of spells he can cast from scrolls. This is probably where the majority of a starting spell-caster's money should be invested. Make 1st level scrolls 25gp each, or simply give the player 3 or 4 scrolls to start with...? THIS is a phenomenal idea! (I mean, heck, they can't spend the coin on weapons or armor!) |
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naleax
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 20
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Post by naleax on Aug 10, 2012 10:02:47 GMT -6
Another option is to simply "make it so". If ever a (frontal) blow would kill a PC who is carrying a shield, his shield is instead dashed into splinters and he survives. This doesn't require any effort from the players, and it is probably the "optimal" player strategy to preserve his AC for as long as possible anyway. This is more or less my general suggestion. You are running things by the book... recall that this game was played by people used to wargames and sandtable minis, so "unit loss" was part of the whole game. So you're not doing anything "wrong".... except you need to have a game enjoyable for you and your players, and it sounds like that isn't happening. I fudge a lot more things for low level characters, especially in B/X. Maybe the spider's poison takes a couple of turns to take effect, and there's a mushroom in the next dungeon chamber that will counteract its effect if ingested. Start the magic-user at 2nd level. Give them a magic scroll that doubles HP for the day. Lean on one-shot magic items like potions and scrolls that they have to use up to survive to higher leve. Also, consider nerfing xp awards rather than awarding scads more treasure. It's fine to bury them in gp but then (if you are running a campaign) you will have to figure out where all those gp go and what players will do with them. Normally, this is the road to monty haul and munchkin games, but I think you started them out on the road to perpetual character-rolling, which IMO can be kind of dull. While detailed character backstories are kind of a bad idea and waste of time in B/X, I don't like ending up with "Erac's Cousin's Second Wife's Brother-in-Law" either, as players roll up more and more replacement characters. Awesome! Thanks Barrataria. And you are right, i think i've remained a little to steadfast to "by the book" as you say. I plan to loosen the belt a little for situations that require it and give the players the means to counter a little bad luck. And i'm not to worried about the gp. They are on the outskirts of civilization so the gp convertible treasure usually gets a serious hit when its sold. Although i award them full gp price in xp. |
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naleax
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 20
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Post by naleax on Sept 5, 2012 14:23:36 GMT -6
Update!
We've played two sessions since i posted this topic here and...
Things are going well. No one has died in two sessions, several PCs are 2nd level, the thief is well on his way to third.
I really didn't change much other than add whimsy cards so that each player gets one at the beginning and then can earn more by coming up with great ideas in game. I also added the house rule mentioned above about healing after each battle by drinking alcohol. And, I've been using monster reaction which i forgot to use in the earlier sessions.
None of that has really factored into the game. The biggest difference has come from the players who read this thread and started applying it in play. Basically they are playing much smarter (using more guile and deception, using the dungeon to their advantage) and it has made a huge difference. The other difference is the addition of an elf with a sleep spell, which has really factored into survivablity in crucial encounters.
I can't preach enough that players who are going into an Old School (dungeon crawl) type game have to know what they are getting into and adjust their play styles, especially if they are coming from newer games. This is absolutely critical! The old school primer is a great help, I wish my players had read it and put it into practice from the beginning, i think it would have saved a lot of PC lives, but who knows.
The group is still on the fence with the B/X rules and Old School. We'll see if the campaign can endure...
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Post by Vile Traveller on Sept 5, 2012 17:50:04 GMT -6
My experience pretty much tallies with yours. Player experience (as opposed to PC experience) really makes a difference to character survival, I believe. This is probably why most experienced Traveller and RuneQuest groups I have known tended to do well in B/X - they were used to avoiding direct conflict and stacking the deck in their favour before going into combat. It's great to see new people coming to B/X and learning how to get the most out of the game!  |
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Post by barrataria on Sept 6, 2012 9:04:48 GMT -6
That's great... glad you have found an enjoyable game style. Sleep and undead turning are pretty critical to survival in this game. And don't let the campaign "die" even if they don't want to play regularly; you can keep it as a night-off type of game, for when some players don't show, or the regular DM needs a night off, or whatever. If you throw together smaller dungeons, or park them outside a megadungeon, the game can be really enjoyable in this "perpetual one-off" type of play. I also added the house rule mentioned above about healing after each battle by drinking alcohol. You mean the characters in the game, or the players at the game table?  |
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Post by mgtremaine on Sept 8, 2012 12:33:28 GMT -6
That was my first thought, I envisioned each player carrying a 12 pack to the table. Talk about survivability!
-Mike
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Post by llenlleawg on Sept 13, 2012 11:48:39 GMT -6
On magic-users (and spell casters in general), it may be worth mentioning that while a 1st level magic-user can only cast one spell per day from memory, there's no limit to the number of spells he can cast from scrolls. This is probably where the majority of a starting spell-caster's money should be invested. Make 1st level scrolls 25gp each, or simply give the player 3 or 4 scrolls to start with...? THIS is a phenomenal idea! (I mean, heck, they can't spend the coin on weapons or armor!) Unless I am mistaken, B/X presumes that an MU can have no more spells in his spellbook than he can cast per day. This means that the only way scrolls will be of any use to a 1st level MU is to have read magic be his only "known" spell. Otherwise, this work-around doesn't help until at least 2nd level. Indeed, it doesn't even do any good for there to be scrolls as treasure, except as delayed gratification. There are, of course, work-arounds to this (e.g. allowing the MU to have more spells in his book), but I thought I should mention that B/X's rule about spells known makes the scroll solution generally usable in OD&D (and esp. with Holmes' rule that MUs of any level can produce scrolls) not especially helpful for a by-the-book B/X campaign. |
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Post by barrataria on Sept 13, 2012 22:21:38 GMT -6
Unless I am mistaken, B/X presumes that an MU can have no more spells in his spellbook than he can cast per day. Well, if the player is lucky his detail-oriented DM could always let the magic-user find a wand instead which will avoid this unfortunate conundrum. |
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Post by llenlleawg on Sept 14, 2012 9:16:05 GMT -6
Well, if the player is lucky his detail-oriented DM could always let the magic-user find a wand instead which will avoid this unfortunate conundrum. True enough, but not the most elegant solution. I would think that rather than making a given magic item be necessary for the use of another magic item (i.e. a wand for a scroll), it would be easier either (a) to allow MUs more spells in their spellbooks, either the guarantee of read magic plus another spell (like Mentzer), or the same plus a few spells (like AD&D DMG), or the same plus possibly several spells (like Greyhawk, Holmes, or the AD&D PHB) OR (b) more radically, not require the use of read magic for the use of scrolls. While (a) is more in line with the tradition of the game, I hardly see (b) as especially game-breaking. It is, after all, the case that clerics can use their own scrolls without read magic, as can high-level thieves. So, why not reserve read magic for magical treasure maps, clues, inscriptions that must be read to open magic portals, etc., and allow scroll-reading without any spell? (I know we tend to hand-waive that a bit in play anyway, and there have not been ill effects on game play.) |
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Post by barrataria on Sept 14, 2012 17:39:14 GMT -6
True enough, but not the most elegant solution. I would think that rather than making a given magic item be necessary for the use of another magic item (i.e. a wand for a scroll), it would be easier either [snip] BX is not the version for over thinking... The wand is just a way to give the MU a few more spells, with just a few remaining charges. And yes it's easier to not cause the problem in the first place by reading the rules to require all beginning MU to start with read magic as their only spell. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 14, 2012 18:34:47 GMT -6
THIS is a phenomenal idea! (I mean, heck, they can't spend the coin on weapons or armor!) Unless I am mistaken, B/X presumes that an MU can have no more spells in his spellbook than he can cast per day. This means that the only way scrolls will be of any use to a 1st level MU is to have read magic be his only "known" spell. Otherwise, this work-around doesn't help until at least 2nd level. Indeed, it doesn't even do any good for there to be scrolls as treasure, except as delayed gratification. There are, of course, work-arounds to this (e.g. allowing the MU to have more spells in his book), but I thought I should mention that B/X's rule about spells known makes the scroll solution generally usable in OD&D (and esp. with Holmes' rule that MUs of any level can produce scrolls) not especially helpful for a by-the-book B/X campaign. I am not especially versed in the particulars of the B/X rules, but what appears on page B49 under the heading of "Scrolls" doesn't appear much different from previous versions to me  It says: (emphasis added). Assuming that a magic-user or elf knows the read magic spell (and he would be foolish indeed not to!) there is no reason why he should not have studied a stock of scrolls in the weeks prior to an adventure. He would do so explicitly so that he could use those scrolls later. I.e., during the adventure. |
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Post by llenlleawg on Sept 14, 2012 23:17:57 GMT -6
The oddity in the B/X rules as expressed lies not in the rules regarding scrolls but rather in the rules regarding how many spells a Magic User or Elf can know. Strictly speaking, this expression of the rules states that an MU or Elf only knows as many spells as he can cast per day. This means that if a 1st level MU knows read magic, he can know no other spell until 2nd level. Sure, he can cast any spell from any scroll he finds, but he still only knows read magic. Conversely, should he know, say, sleep or some other spell at 1st level, then he will be unable to use any scroll he encounters until at least 2nd level, should he at that point add read magic to his spellbook.
However, as said above, B/X, and OD&D in general, is not meant to be parsed at this fine a level of detail. I suspect that this conundrum was unintended by Mr. Moldvay and company, so I would urge removing the rules about the limits on spells in spellbooks. I merely wanted to note the discrepancy, should someone care to follow Moldvay and Cook to the letter.
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Post by Zenopus on Sept 15, 2012 9:25:29 GMT -6
llenlleawg's right. I'd forgotten about that, but I think I remember some discussions about it on Dragonsfoot in the past. Page B16 of Moldvay says "Each magic-user and elf has a spell book for the spells that he or she has learned. A first level character will have one spell (a first level spell) in the spell book). A second level character will have two spells (both first level) in the spell book; a third level character will have three spells...The DM may choose which spells a character has in the book, or may allow the player to select them". Read Magic is required to read scrolls (pg B17). So a 1st level M-U cannot use scrolls unless their single spell in their book is Read Magic. I'm sure this was ignored by most ...
This seems like an area where Moldvay was trying to simplify the Holmes "chance to know" rules and went too far, which Mentzer recognized and corrected.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 15, 2012 18:27:07 GMT -6
Yes, I see it now.
It also says on page B5 (How to Create A Player Character), step 4, that:
That is very restrictive indeed!
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Post by barrataria on Sept 16, 2012 6:03:59 GMT -6
llenlleawg's right. I'd forgotten about that, but I think I remember some discussions about it on Dragonsfoot in the past. [snip] I'm sure this was ignored by most .... Right on both counts...I didn't get into this because I understood the OP to be asking for help in running an enjoyable game, not a DF-style parsing of the rulebook. Sorry to have caused a disturbance. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 7:07:06 GMT -6
I'm with you Barrataria! The spell limit is an easy house-rule "fix".
Another idea is a ring, amulet, talisman, etc. that allows the player to convert any memorized spell into a "sleep" spell. Or allows the player to "recall" any spell cast and recast it; either once or at least once plus as many times as he can save versus spells. Or a magically regenerating sleep (or other useful spell) scroll, it can be read once per day and the magic writing reappears the next day. Or ...
It's a game! The possibilities are endless!
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capheind
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by capheind on Sept 16, 2012 11:45:42 GMT -6
I know quite a few game masters who house rule that a limited form of read-magic or detect-magic (or both) are permanently burned into a magic-users mind and can be used at will. So some basic magical inscriptions (like unsecured scrolls and the magic users own spellbook) are always legible to a Magic-User, but anything intentionally obfuscated (like another MU's spell book, or a protected/encrypted scroll) is not.
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Post by llenlleawg on Sept 16, 2012 14:19:17 GMT -6
Indeed to one and all! I hope I didn't sound like some crazy B/X fundamentalist! When we remember that all of the older rulebooks are slightly variant expressions of the same game and that they are mutually intelligible, something written for one being easily transposed to the other, it's important not to be over-concerned with what seems to be or has become a fun-crushing or fun-impeding rule. Sure, some rules we think are bad need not be so in actual play. Still, no need to make this individual rule (which is the odd man out in any event) an impediment.
I would suggest that the easiest fix is, as I wrote above, to eliminate the spellbook limits and use either (a) Mentzer, (b) Greyhawk/Holmes, or (c) Men and Magic as the basis for how many spells there are in the book. Then, allow Holmes' permission for MUs of any level to write scrolls at 100gp and 1 week per level. Done and done.
Personally, I like the suggestion that MUs don't need to use read magic to use scrolls. I just find it adds little to the fun of the game and potentially gets in the way of it.
On the original question, re: the fragility of low-level parties, one option might be to increase hit points at low level. If the players prefer being able to hack and slash a little longer before things get iffy, I don't see this as such a bad thing. Some system that allows the hit points to level back out at higher levels would remove worries of "power creep". One possibility, off the top of my head and altogether untested, would be to allow the PC's Constitution score to serve as initial hit points. At every new level, roll the total number of dice appropriate, including Con bonuses, and compare to the Con score. If the rolled value is lower, keep the Con score as hit points. If the rolled value is higher, used the rolled value as hit points and then proceed as per the normal rules from that point forward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 14:33:24 GMT -6
You didn't sound like that at all, I believe the general concern was the topic drift, not your initial question.
Casting of certain spells (such as read magic) as rituals, and therefore not requiring memorization, is an excellent way to proceed. The MU will always have something to contribute, even if he has cast his "big gun" spell for the day.You can limit it by required 100 gp per spell level worth of material (incense, eye of newt, et al.) and limit spells that can be cast that way to informational type spells. Finally, make it take a whole turn to cast a ritual spell, thus incurring a wandering monster check too ... you have a nice self-limiting system that increased magi utility to the party.
Increasing hit points gets back into a problem I attempted to highlight earlier. It seems a good solution at first, but a typical outcome is players who never learned cautious, tactical play. I liken it to playing Doom in "god mode" ... kind of fun for a short while but it sort of sucks all the fun out of the game after the novelty wears off. Of course, that is one gamer's opinion only; increased hit points may work fine at your table.
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Post by ritt on Sept 16, 2012 16:27:03 GMT -6
f=15&t=34964 3. Religiously use morale checks. Remember that monsters have to make a morale check when the FIRST of their number is slain. Thus a group of 6 orcs might run away after only 1 orc is slain. 4. Also religiously use the reaction table. Most monsters most of the time will NOT attack. I don't care if their alignment is chaotic. Check-out that table. You will see that, if the players want to survive, they can avoid combat most of the time that they encounter monsters. Yes, yes, YES! Morale if actually used as written really changes the entire game. |
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Post by rossik on Sept 16, 2012 18:42:56 GMT -6
this topic was very inspiring. thanks all!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 9:36:12 GMT -6
I know I'm late to the party, but still:
No cleric, either PC or hired, no magic user, either PC or hired, and 50% of the time their tactic is "CHARGE"?
That should be a total party wipe.
However, it sounds like the players have pulled their heads out of their butts and started to play the game, so good.
Gary started re running Greyhawk in the late 90s and he often commented how appalled he was at the lack of tactics by players; his kobolds at the entrance scored over a dozen total party kills.
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