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Post by jdrakeh on Mar 31, 2008 11:28:47 GMT -6
I've recently picked up several copies of the notorious Fantasy Wargaming and haven't found it to be the unplayable mess that many claim it is (although not doing calculations for basic factors prior to play would be a mistake, IMHO, as many of them are quite involved).
It seems to cleave very closely to older wargames, perhaps moreso than OD&D (I'm still undecided on that) with regard to calculating "factors" (circumstance bonuses or penalties that impact actual dice rolls) and structuring combat (FW uses a 'flurry of blows' model that relies heavily on staged resolution).
Also, it's worth noting that it includes a 'mass combat system' (read "wargame", folks) and that there are skills, but only a handful, and with only three rankings: Yes, No, and Well (i.e., Yes, you know the skill; No, you don't; Yes, you know the skill and can perform it well).
One of the biggest 'plusses' of the book, IMHO, is the detailed and in depth discussion of Medieval life (it covers this more thoroughly and better than most RPGs that I've read). The combat stats for Saints and other religious icons (e.g., The Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene) are a bit odd but I can see some of them coming in handy.
All in all, despite heavy use of wargame terminology (which I suspect throws a lot of people off, somewhat like case numbering in other games seems to), the system seems both playable and as though it would be fun. So. . . anybody here tested this hypothesis in actual play?
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 1, 2008 11:20:28 GMT -6
It's been quite a while since I read this book, so my memory may be faulty. However...
I think the term "unplayable" is often overused. Somebody probably played pretty much any RPG out there and enjoyed it. That doesn't make a game playable to the typical gamer, however. I seem to recall that Fantasy Wargaming was heavy on historical information and rather mathematical in style. I like numbers but it was too equation-filled for my taste.
Not so OD&D-like to me. More similar to Chivalry & Sorcery in terms of detail and such.
I'm sure there was a lot of good stuff inside, however, but it's just been too long since I read it......
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 1, 2008 11:58:33 GMT -6
It's been quite a while since I read this book, so my memory may be faulty. However... I think the term "unplayable" is often overused. Somebody probably played pretty much any RPG out there and enjoyed it. That doesn't make a game playable to the typical gamer, however. I seem to recall that Fantasy Wargaming was heavy on historical information and rather mathematical in style. I like numbers but it was too equation-filled for my taste. Not so OD&D-like to me. More similar to Chivalry & Sorcery in terms of detail and such. I'm sure there was a lot of good stuff inside, however, but it's just been too long since I read it...... The big issue is that it requires one to calculate factors duing play that most RPGs (including OD&D) present up front in the form of abstract but no less codified values such as saving throw target numbers, to-hit values, skill percentages, etc. These things are subject to change on a case-by-case basis in Fantasy Wargaming, which is arguably much more realistic -- but that degree of realism does come at a price. If you like high degrees of detail and verisimilitude in fantasy, Fantasy Wargming seems like it might be a win. If you like large degrees of abstraction, not so much. I like verisimilitude, so the trade off doesn't seem like a big deal to me in terms of the added math, though I can clearly see where people used to very abstract games might look at FW and run screaming for the hills.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 2, 2008 10:25:10 GMT -6
Sooooooo. . . hypothetically, if I were to propose running a PbP Fantasy Wargaming campaign, would there be any takers?
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Post by coffee on Apr 2, 2008 10:56:08 GMT -6
Hypothetically, I might be interested.
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Stonegiant
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
100% in Liar
Posts: 240
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Post by Stonegiant on Apr 2, 2008 20:23:22 GMT -6
I would be interested in this as well.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 3, 2008 10:23:11 GMT -6
Well, then, I may hypothetically set up a campaign website later this month (first I need to finalize some computer upgrades), complete with PDF handouts, character sheets, a dice roller, and other FW information. I'll post updates here as I move foward, as well as a player sign-up thread.
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Post by murquhart72 on Apr 3, 2008 16:41:08 GMT -6
Sounds interesting. I don't know the rules (despite the fact I own a copy), but if noobs are allowed, I'll check it out.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 3, 2008 20:32:21 GMT -6
Sounds interesting. I don't know the rules (despite the fact I own a copy), but if noobs are allowed, I'll check it out. Absolutely! I'm new to Fantasy Wargaming myself (though not to wargames or GMing). I'll work on the CSS templates for the website this weekend. I'm tempted to use a true Medieval Europe setting, having recently read The Name of the Rose, The Monk, and some other medival fiction. Updates forthcoming!
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Post by calithena on Apr 3, 2008 22:32:50 GMT -6
Take a careful look at the magic system. In some ways it's actually the most innovative piece of design in the game.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 4, 2008 10:14:45 GMT -6
Take a careful look at the magic system. In some ways it's actually the most innovative piece of design in the game. Will do. At a cursory glance, it seems like a very early precursor to Ars Magica, albeit with even more historical influence. The man to man combat also seems fairly innovative for the time, though the nomenclature in which it is presented makes it purely old school in my book. The more I read, the more impressed I am, though.
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wulfgar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 126
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Post by wulfgar on Apr 7, 2008 13:23:23 GMT -6
I'm interested. Involved in 3 pbp games right now though. If one wraps up before yours starts I'd be interested in joining.
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Post by kesher on Apr 7, 2008 15:56:21 GMT -6
I've owned this for a long, long time. I always enjoyed picking sections to read, though I'm not sure I ever read all the way through it. Cal's right on about the magic system, and the overall medieval flavor is palpable. It'd be kinda cool to play it using the map of Arthur's Britain from Chaosium's Knights Adventurous. Now I'm probably going to have to start reading my copy again (very beat-up, without the garish cover, which btw is subtitled "The Highest Level of All"; I think I stole mine from a friend back in middle school...) There are a few up for auction on eBay, including a second printing from '92. This one's the least expensive: cgi.ebay.com/The-Highest-Level-of-all-Fantasy-Wargaming-1982_W0QQitemZ330224819781QQihZ014QQcategoryZ29223QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem_trksid=p1638.m124I don't know why the link is formatting so strangely, but there you go...
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Post by kesher on Apr 7, 2008 16:19:46 GMT -6
From a reviewer on Amazon.com:
I'm not sure who Captain Josh is, but, by golly, he's passionate. And I don't know about all of you, but I LOVE being forced to use my reference finding skills...
('cause they RAWK!)
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 8, 2008 11:46:29 GMT -6
There are a few up for auction on eBay. . . I've acquired four copies (two of the early 8 1/2" x 11" copies, two of the digest-sized Book club copies) recently for roughly $9.95 a piece from Noble Knight Games (one was offered for free, as compensation for a shipping mix-up). I believe that they still have some copies of the book in stock at similarly cheap prices.
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Post by redpriest on Apr 8, 2008 13:57:56 GMT -6
I think Noble Knight's where I got mine and about $10 sounds right. I haven't given the rules section a thorough read, but have done more than just skim it, and for the life of me, can't figure out exactly how to create a character. There's a lot of stuff to generate, about as much as you'd find in Rolemaster I guess, but no instructions. Well, no plain instructions anyway.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 8, 2008 15:00:45 GMT -6
There's a lot of stuff to generate, about as much as you'd find in Rolemaster I guess, but no instructions. Well, no plain instructions anyway. There is nowhere near as much information to generate as there is in Rolemaster, though I agree that the initial few parapgraphs muddle the process considerably. Here is a much clearer set of instructions.
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Post by coffee on Apr 8, 2008 15:36:01 GMT -6
What a great link! Have an exalt for that.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 8, 2008 17:11:29 GMT -6
What a great link! Have an exalt for that. When I get the website up for the proposed campaign, I'll have links to the 'Dymystifying' site, as well as several PDF handouts (for those of you who want to give FW a spin offline), and a spiffy PDF character sheet (complete with swank-ish fantasy clipart that I purchased for a now cancelled print project). P.S. Thanks for the exalt! ;D
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Post by redpriest on Apr 8, 2008 22:41:50 GMT -6
Ahhhh.. Stormcrow. Of course! Doh!!!
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 9, 2008 5:47:40 GMT -6
Ahhhh.. Stormcrow. Of course! Doh!!! I'm sorry but I don't get the reference at all. Care to explain?
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Post by redpriest on Apr 9, 2008 8:23:46 GMT -6
Ahhhh.. Stormcrow. Of course! Doh!!! I'm sorry but I don't get the reference at all. Care to explain? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought Stormcrow linked to this page some time ago (I remember visiting it some while back), and I guess I just ASSuMEd that it was his. I'm old and becoming feeble-minded. Just leave me a glass of nice warm milk next to my easy chair and all will be fine.
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Stonegiant
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
100% in Liar
Posts: 240
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Post by Stonegiant on Apr 9, 2008 10:34:14 GMT -6
I'm sorry but I don't get the reference at all. Care to explain? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought Stormcrow linked to this page some time ago (I remember visiting it some while back), and I guess I just ASSuMEd that it was his. I'm old and becoming feeble-minded. Just leave me a glass of nice warm milk next to my easy chair and all will be fine. That is Stormcrow's web site (He's a frequent poster at Dragonsfoot and KnK.) In fact him and another fellow were having a rather in depth discussion of FWG over DF in the Other Games Forum.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 9, 2008 10:38:54 GMT -6
That is Stormcrow's web site (He's a frequent poster at Dragonsfoot and KnK.) In fact him and another fellow were having a rather in depth discussion of FWG over DF in the Other Games Forum. Well, this would explain my lack of 'getting' Red Priest's remark I don't post to Dragonsfoot or KnK -- this forum and the Canonfire forum compose the core of my online old school interests, with some CotI lurking on the side. I had no idea who "Stormcrow" was as a result (I merely stumbled across the page using Google a year or so back).
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 10, 2008 9:26:08 GMT -6
Okay, I've been doing a bit of reading, and I think that the allegorical Earth described by Sir John Mandeville (yes, vegetable sheep and all) would make a rather keen setting for our proposed FW jaunt. I'm building the site pages in my free time and should, with a bit of luck, have them up and ready by the 20th.
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Post by Stormcrow on Apr 18, 2008 13:40:46 GMT -6
Ahhhh.. Stormcrow. Of course! Doh!!! Hi! Yep, my site.
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Post by jdrakeh on Apr 18, 2008 22:14:22 GMT -6
Arg! I got a promotion at work yesterday, along with a three dollar per hour raise and a stupid cash incentive structure to work on a new project for my employer over the next two weeks. Which, of course, means that learning a new (to me) system will have to wait. I think I may run a Holmes D&D campaign instead, as I already know those rules and am very comfortable with them. Dammit. Once again, success in life screws me out of gaming fun
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Post by castiglione on Oct 6, 2008 6:53:40 GMT -6
I've been reading through this and it's a bit of a mess, mainly due to how it's been organized. It reminds me of D & D...with a TON of house-rules thrown on top.
What I found interesting about it were the mass combat rules (you have to have mass combat rules in a setting like this because the a priori assumption is that the characters had some ambition). They allowed characters to be "inserted" into battles. They were also pretty "chess-like" with results being tightly confined around a mean/median without any crazily random results showing up. I thought the mass combat game would've been an interesting thing to port over to other games.
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Post by kesher on Jan 21, 2011 13:43:54 GMT -6
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norse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
And it's cold, so cold at the Edge of Time.
Posts: 233
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Post by norse on Mar 7, 2011 16:53:36 GMT -6
Sweet! Cheers Kesher! Just noticed this thread. Been flicking through my copy again lately and was wondering how the hell I was ever going to find time to type the charts up so I could actually use them.
Personally, I've never had a problem figuring it out. It's a bit obfuscated, but a d**n sight less so than the 3LBB's. Most people understand those rules because they've seen them from a later point of development (which means people often read them wrong, preconceptions and all that). You don't have that advantage with Fantasy Wargaming. But as long as you read it carefully and make sure to not jump to any conclusions you're fine. It's not an easy system to use. But it's pretty awesome anyway. Despite the occasionally painful sexism. But y'know, it is a game about Mediaeval and Dark Age Europe...
It has a wargaming system in it because it's closer to the older British wargaming books than a commercial roleplaying game. That's why it has the whole treatise going on in the first half of the book. Something which must look extremely odd to people not of British extraction, but should be a familiar approach if you've read any of the Featherstone stuff or anything similar. A tradition now carried on in the 21st century by Dr Sabin in Lost Battles: Great Clashes of the Ancient World (check it out, it's supremely awesome).
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