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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 17, 2009 16:30:39 GMT -6
Hello!
I'm new to these boards and new to the game. I first started playing D&D with third edition with some friends of mine in the dorms. I liked the premise of the game, but I found a lot of things quite lacking. When 4E came along, I decided to buy the books and some miniatures and give it a try. I tried to get the group I played D&D3 with into it, but they barely got through character creation before they decided that they didn't like it. I have found other people to play with however and we have been having a blast! I taught by nine year old sister to play and she loves it.
I'm interested in OD&D though... out of curiosity. I've been reading it in pdf. So far there are some things I don't like; class/race restrictions for one (maybe I want to play a dwarven cleric!) but there are some ideas I do like (Paladins get an anti-magic field when wielding holy swords? They should have had that in 4E.) I'd like to play OD&D, but I'm having a hard time finding people to play with and there are some things I'm having trouble wrapping my head around (AC, how saves work, so many d**n matrices!)
Can you guys give me any tips for getting into the game?
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 17, 2009 18:48:07 GMT -6
I would recommend approaching it as a different game. Just because you have played other editions of d&d does not mean you will know this one. I would also recommend checking out Philotomy's site here www.philotomy.com/ it has lots of good info and will help you to understand the concept of the game much better. Another thing about od&d really at it's core is it's more of a guide book. Learn the basics try them out if you don't like something change it! But learn why that certain rule would be something you would change and why that would make your game better.
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 17, 2009 18:55:48 GMT -6
I would recommend approaching it as a different game. I gave that same advice to my friends when I was trying to get them into 4E. I'll check that out. Thanks. I already houserule 4E into submission, so I don't think I'll have much problem with this. I notice that there are online games on these forums. Can you tell me how to get into those?
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 17, 2009 19:07:17 GMT -6
Ok to go ahead and answer some of your questions...
A. To make a saving throw one must roll equal to or over the indicated score on the saving throw matrix as per men & magic. Cross index the level with the type of save and roll over that amount with a d20. Now sometimes you have to make a logical interpetation as to when a saving throw must be made. An example would be if a fireball trap is being set off by a player he could proubly get a save vs. breath weapons. Monsters are assumed i guess to save as fighters based on hit-die instead of level.
B. Armor class is a fixed value. It really does not matter what the armor class of the character is just what armor he is wearing. To see if a monster or character can successfully hit someone you roll a d20 on the combat matrix there are two of them, one for monsters attacking and one for 'men' or characters. Start at the top cross index armor class with level and that is the number you have to beat. Also another thing of note is magical armor or protections such as rings etc. do not add to armor class. But rather it subtracts from the enemy to hit.
C. The class and level limits are the balancing factor for the humans. Demi-Humans are kind of viewed as mystical creatures who rarely adventure they are more powerful then human characters to start with but can only advance up to a certain level. Humans on the other hand can be any class and advance to any level. Another thing you should take note of is that level advancement is alot slower then in 3e or 4e. Level 10 in od&d is in my eyes like Lv. 20 in 3e or 4e. It's also a lower powered game.... anyways i hope that cleared somethings for you any other questions dont be afraid to ask all the guys here are awesome people who love to help! I hope you find od&d interesting in play believe me it will suprise you!
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 17, 2009 19:08:56 GMT -6
If you want to get in on the games just ask one of the guys running them. Or if they are full i have been considering running my own pbp game either here or elsewhere..
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 17, 2009 19:59:16 GMT -6
Yeah, I am a little confused by saving throws in this edition. If a green dragon breaths chlorine gas at me, do I save against poison or breath? Does the player get to decide or is it totally up to the DM?
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 17, 2009 20:20:51 GMT -6
It's really up to you... sometimes the save type will be specified by the effect..
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 17, 2009 20:26:44 GMT -6
Makes sense.
I was also wondering about the level-caps as a balancing mechanic. Is it effective? I was under the impression that most characters don't even survive up to the upper levels.
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 17, 2009 20:35:19 GMT -6
Well it's kind of a trade really do you want more power now or can you wait. It can be effective... another thing i have done in previous 0d&d games is just give humans a 10% exp bonus on top of class bonus. As for surviability... it really depends on your players and also the DM.. As opposed to other editions of d&d players really have to think about what their character will do as opposed to "Oh i have evasion and 20 blah blah ranks etc." So intially 3e or 4e players have a little trouble adapting and can easily die.. they have to learn their lesson lol..
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 17, 2009 21:04:21 GMT -6
Heh. Sounds like fun. Is it possible to convert 4E characters over to OD&D? I imagine a Half-Elf Resourceful Warlord could easily become a Elf Fighting-Man in OD&D. Perhaps some houseruling to give his underlings some bonus to morale or whatever, depending on what the DM is okay with. What about a Tiefling Swordmage though? How hard would it be to convert that over?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 17, 2009 21:10:03 GMT -6
For me the main difference difference between modern and original D&D is less about the technicalities of the rules, and more about the manner in which challenges are solved. In modern D&D challenges are generally solved by comparing a die roll to some statistic of the character. In original D&D challenges are generally solved by the active enquiry and/or participation of the players (not their characters). Matt Finch has written an excellent article on this subject (and more) which can be freely downloaded from www.lulu.com/content/3019374 It's an excellent introduction to original-style gaming, and a great read too
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 17, 2009 21:42:54 GMT -6
For me the main difference difference between modern and original D&D is less about the technicalities of the rules, and more about the manner in which challenges are solved. Well put sir thats exactly the spirit of the game.. As for other races and such it's very very easy to port stuff over from other editions to od&d because of it's simplicity.
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 17, 2009 21:49:24 GMT -6
Thanks for the article! I've read it over a bit. I'll read it again tomorrow because some things don't quite click yet. First Zen Moment: Rulings, not RulesI think I do kind of a hybrid of the old style and new style when I DM. If players are bad at role-playing, I let them roll dice. If players are good at role-playing, I don't punish them with rules. Second Zen Moment: Player Skill, not Character AbilitiesI kind of have issues with this. I feel that it forces me to play as a character with similar skills as myself, which is an issue if I want to play as a character that is completely different from myself. Let's say for example that I want my character to be a great singer. Not for any 'crunch' reason or anything; It's just part of my character's personality and backstory and whatnot. Does that mean that I actually have to sing though? I'm terrible at singing! Third Zen Moment: Heroic, not SuperheroI feel that there's an excluded middle here. What if I want to play a game about the triumph of the little guy into a superhuman being? Old style is zero to hero and new style is hero to god, but what if I want to start out as a zero and eventually become a god? Fourth Zen Moment: Forget “Game Balance.”This is quite difficult for me to be honest. I mean, I want to try it, but it looks kind of strange to me.
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Apr 17, 2009 22:24:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the article! I've read it over a bit. I'll read it again tomorrow because some things don't quite click yet. If you've only played 3rd and 4th, give it time. It's an odd transition, for sure. First Zen Moment: Rulings, not RulesI think I do kind of a hybrid of the old style and new style when I DM. If players are bad at role-playing, I let them roll dice. If players are good at role-playing, I don't punish them with rules. As I explain some below, it's a little different. Think of the DM as the puzzle-master and the players are there to work their way through the maze laid before them and figure it out and succeed. Second Zen Moment: Player Skill, not Character AbilitiesI kind of have issues with this. I feel that it forces me to play as a character with similar skills as myself, which is an issue if I want to play as a character that is completely different from myself. Let's say for example that I want my character to be a great singer. Not for any 'crunch' reason or anything; It's just part of my character's personality and backstory and whatnot. Does that mean that I actually have to sing though? I'm terrible at singing! Absolutely not. Role-playing in the modern sense is different from role-playing in the old sense. Today it's taken on meaning of acting in character. In the old sense role-playing was you're playing a role in the game: cleric, magic-user, fighter. If you want to play a bard like character, pick a fighting-man and let the DM know, he's good with the piccolo and loves to tell tales. Then when you're at the next tavern you say, "My character pulls out his instrument and attempts to win over the locals with tales of plunder!" The DM will decide how effective it is or isn't depending upon the locals, etc. Third Zen Moment: Heroic, not SuperheroI feel that there's an excluded middle here. What if I want to play a game about the triumph of the little guy into a superhuman being? Old style is zero to hero and new style is hero to god, but what if I want to start out as a zero and eventually become a god? OD&D technically has no limits. I think back when I was 8 in my brothers campaign I had a level 40 something fighting-man. Fourth Zen Moment: Forget “Game Balance.”This is quite difficult for me to be honest. I mean, I want to try it, but it looks kind of strange to me. Rules will always have holes in them, areas to exploit. The idea of old school is to forget rules, forget rules lawyers, and have fun. If a particular rule is getting in the way of you and your group having fun, then house rule it to something that works. Old school puts a lot more onus on the DM and players to trust each other. It was where the stories of nasty DMs and bad DMs and awesome DMs became legend. Theres a lot more pressure on the DM to be ready for all situations. Some of it still lives a little in 4th edition, but you have to really be reading between the cracks to see it there. My first bit of advice is to house rule as little as possible. You're going to want to add a LOT of rules as a 3rd/4th ed player. What if a thief wants to walk a tight rope, there's no rules for it? What if a fighting-man tries to trip an orc, there's no rules for it... etc. The list is nearly infinite of situations that there are no rules for in OD&D. And that's because you can't cover everything. You just can't. The human equation has to come into the balance. Trust yourself or your DM to make decisions based on the situation. You'll fumble at first and be unsure, but with a little bit of time, you'll get it. I've been playing in makofan's PBP game for about 8 of the last 15 months, I don't think I've looked at a rule booklet except to buy items from the equipment list in that entire time.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 17, 2009 22:36:24 GMT -6
If players are bad at role-playing, I let them roll dice. If players are good at role-playing, I don't punish them with rules. I see it being more about encouraging participation than role-playing. Players should be rewarded for describing the detail of their PC's actions, such as exactly how they go about searching for a secret door. If a player says his PC leans his face against the wall in order to see if any of the stones jut out beyond the others, the referee can reward him with new information; in this case, "Yes -- one of the stone seems to stick out," or "No, they all seem flush,". There's no need for any die roll. I feel that it forces me to play as a character with similar skills as myself, which is an issue if I want to play as a character that is completely different from myself. Let's say for example that I want my character to be a great singer. Not for any 'crunch' reason or anything; It's just part of my character's personality and backstory and whatnot. Does that mean that I actually have to sing though? I'm terrible at singing! Not at all. Nor does a magic-user's player have to recite the actual spells, nor does a fighter's player need to come to each game session equipped with a mace. Elves' players should always be forced to wear pointy ears thou As the player of a minstrel or troubadour type character you simply describe your PC's actions -- "Henri recites a short verse of regal prose to encourage the men at arms," or "Henri sings a quiet, dignified ballad in the Elvish tongue to lament the untimely passing of Gylainne Silverbow,". What if I want to play a game about the triumph of the little guy into a superhuman being? There's nothing hard and fast about OD&D that prevents a PC from reaching superhuman power. If you don't like the level caps on demi-humans, then just ignore them. I do exactly that. It is ultimately up to the referee to determine how high PC levels will go in the game, and how quickly PCs can achieve them. Fourth Zen Moment: Forget “Game Balance.”This is quite difficult for me to be honest. I mean, I want to try it, but it looks kind of strange to me. For me this one is the most important of the Zen moments. It is about PC freedom. There is no "magical barrier" that somehow prevents low level PCs from approaching within 1 mile of an ancient red dragon, or from entering the crypt of a powerful liche or a vampire. The PCs are free to attempt anything. Even things that will kill them. If they happen to loot value treasure well beyond even their own expectations, well done! That is the stuff of legend! If they happen to die trying, too bad. The players might be more careful next time. The freedom of choice really matters.
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 17, 2009 22:49:27 GMT -6
It's not PC balance against the monsters that I am worried about; it's how the PCs are balanced against each other. Back when I played D&D3 there were a lot of discrepancies in power between members of the party, including members of the same level. The issue was that some players would hog the spotlight while others would be left behind in the dust. My human bard for example, no matter how much I tried to participate, always ended up being the BMX Bandit to somebody else's Angel Summoner. www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NTAAvJIGrs
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Post by codeman123 on Apr 18, 2009 0:01:16 GMT -6
Everyone kind of is equal on different levels of the field. Intially the Fighting-Man is going to be the best but eventually after some levels the magic-user takes over.. the cleric always seems to sit in the middle somewhere.. but yeah balance really isnt as important and believe me i hear your pains about 3e i have played in many long running 3e campaigns where basically one guy is god and the rest of us are pawns in his little game.. never had that problem in od&d..
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Apr 18, 2009 1:07:04 GMT -6
Yeah, I never had that problem with OD&D as well, though my play with 3rd and 4th is pretty limited, heck even 2nd is pretty limited for me.
I think one of the key things is that unlike 3rd and 4th, the players don't have all of these powers and such, as someone said earlier, things are of a lower power value in OD&D. Expect your players to die, a lot. I think mako's game has 21 deaths thus far. But dying is part of the fun, no really, it is. Stories of the death of your character are as much fun as just about everything else.
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Post by chronoplasm on Apr 18, 2009 9:54:06 GMT -6
Expect your players to die, a lot. I think mako's game has 21 deaths thus far. But dying is part of the fun, no really, it is. Stories of the death of your character are as much fun as just about everything else. Heh. I play NetHack and Dwarf Fortress a lot, so I can understand that!
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